The Exvangelical Movement

[JermajestyDuggar]

13 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

No offense to any LDS here but so much of the LDS church's beliefs -- even mainstream LDS, never mind the FLDS -- are so fantastical, starting with the Joseph Smith origin stories . It doesn't surprise me that LDS who have had it with their church move right into atheism.

The church even likes to downplay some of the weirder stuff. They try to hard to be “mainstream” but when your founder had a bazillion wives and starts talking about golden plates and looking into a hat in order to translate stuff from god, there’s no way y’all can sound seven slightly normal. 

[Pecansforeveryone]

There are also a lot of books, podcasts, etc that are able to debunk Mormonism because it is so "recent." The many, many predatory and criminal activities of Joseph Smith including sedition would have put him away for life even if he had renounced polygamy. 

[Hane]

And the ex-Mormons I follow on YouTube refer to it as a “high-demand” religion, expecting much more of its members than church on Sundays and a few bucks in the collection plate.

[CTRLZero]

5 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

Well, Russell Moore is not an exvangelical but he's leaving the SBC's leadership -- is the ship leaving the sinking rats? ?️  ?  ? ?

 

Just random side notes.  Lifeway built a new, downsized building in Nashville a few years ago, probably reflecting changes in the printing industry and possibly the SBC finances.  A couple days ago, it sold that new building (for $95 million), saying they are blessed to have employees who were happy to continue to work remotely to accomplish publishing for the lord.  I’ll try linking:  https://www.baptiststandard.com/news/baptists/lifeway-finalizes-sale-of-downtown-nashville-building/

On LDS/Joseph Smith - we toured the temple museum in Salt Lake City a couple years ago.  It was so difficult for us heathens to not laugh, because Joseph hid the golden plates, covered them with a handkerchief if someone walked in while he was translating, something about a seer stone, etc.  The narrative hurried us along through more difficult subjects (polygamy, anyone?) with, “well God decided times had changed, so practices should also change.”  [greatly paraphrased].   Anyway, worth taking the tour if you are in the area.  

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

7 hours ago, CTRLZero said:

“well God decided times had changed, so practices should also change.”  

I always find it interesting that they use this excuse for polygamy but refuse to accept gay people. Hey guys, times change. So maybe stop shaming people for being gay. 

[Pecansforeveryone]

Derek Lambert of Myth Vision on You Tube has a fascinating 20 part series on Mormonism with two authors that include an-ex Mormon. It is very, very good. 

[Antipatriarch]

15 hours ago, Hane said:

I’ve been following former Mormons

...or as Brian Dalton calls them (incl. himself), "Formons". ?

13 hours ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

There are also a lot of books, podcasts, etc that are able to debunk Mormonism because it is so "recent."

And yet, it's one of the fastest-growing religions (or "branches of Christianity" if you prefer) in the world. I think it's an eloquent commentary on the human propensity to invent, believe, and spread religions (and associated gods). As you say, it's not even quite 200 years old, and is so much easier to examine historically than the original Christianity of 2000 years ago. And yet many, many people believe it.

[Antipatriarch]

3 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I always find it interesting that they use this excuse for polygamy but refuse to accept gay people. Hey guys, times change. So maybe stop shaming people for being gay.

Agreed. Another shout-out to Josh and Lolly Weed who have achieved a measure of happiness in their lives. Their story is inspiring. I find it really interesting that they apparently still attend their Mormon church--I am super curious how the local church leadership reconciles their current status with their religion, but they haven't chosen to share anything about this. It makes me suspect, though, that just like other religions, the beliefs and practices probably aren't monolithic across all local congregations.

[theotherelise]

I read almost all of the CES Letter and found it fascinating. The CES Letter really has been an inflection point for LDS members. There were so many who resigned their membership following it's publishing. The church has made some pretty big changes to try and weather this storm (releasing many things on their website and changing the rules for length of missions and how much contact missionaries can have with family/friends while in the field. But it is certainly a moment in that faith community.

[hoipolloi]

I highly recommend reading Fawn Brodie's classic biography of Joseph Smith, No Man Knows My History. 

 

[EmainMacha]

2 hours ago, Antipatriarch said:

...or as Brian Dalton calls them (incl. himself), "Formons". ?

And yet, it's one of the fastest-growing religions (or "branches of Christianity" if you prefer) in the world. I think it's an eloquent commentary on the human propensity to invent, believe, and spread religions (and associated gods). As you say, it's not even quite 200 years old, and is so much easier to examine historically than the original Christianity of 2000 years ago. And yet many, many people believe it.

My main experience with Mormons has been in the Caribbean. I know that if you are a member in good standing they will help you out lots if you have difficulties. They've provided food, clothing, baby equipment and other things to people I know. And those people keep tithing. They don't really talk about Mormonisn that much though so not sure how strong their beliefs are.

[louisa05]

14 hours ago, CTRLZero said:

Just random side notes.  Lifeway built a new, downsized building in Nashville a few years ago, probably reflecting changes in the printing industry and possibly the SBC finances.  A couple days ago, it sold that new building (for $95 million), saying they are blessed to have employees who were happy to continue to work remotely to accomplish publishing for the lord.  I’ll try linking:  https://www.baptiststandard.com/news/baptists/lifeway-finalizes-sale-of-downtown-nashville-building/

On LDS/Joseph Smith - we toured the temple museum in Salt Lake City a couple years ago.  It was so difficult for us heathens to not laugh, because Joseph hid the golden plates, covered them with a handkerchief if someone walked in while he was translating, something about a seer stone, etc.  The narrative hurried us along through more difficult subjects (polygamy, anyone?) with, “well God decided times had changed, so practices should also change.”  [greatly paraphrased].   Anyway, worth taking the tour if you are in the area.  

 

Was the staff all fake happy and suffocating? I visited a Mormon site in a grad class/trip for history teachers years ago. It was in Wyoming where an early  group heading to Utah got caught in a blizzard and a bunch of them died. They left Council Bluffs, Iowa in September.  Which was more than foolish.  At the site the guides and materials  sell it as a shocking surprise that it would ever turn cold and snow. In Wyoming. In October. 
There were staff everywhere smiling creepily, following us and asking if we wanted to learn about the Book of Mormon.  Even in the bathrooms.  And there were Mormon groups on pilgrimages dressing up in 19th C clothes and pulling handcarts while singing.  
I did three of these trips.  We stopped at all kinds of historical sites.  Getting a group of history teachers rounded up to leave a historical site was always a bit difficult for the leaders. Not this one. Everyone was standing by the vans ready to go long before the departure time. 

[CTRLZero]

10 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

Was the staff all fake happy and suffocating?

They probably could tell that our next stop was to a brew pub serving Polygamy Porter, so they kept a close eye on us and kept us moving along.  I try to be respectful in these settings, but the part about Joseph Smith hiding the evidence of the golden plates made it really hard to keep my eyes from rolling.  

[smittykins]

I’ve always wanted to ask “How come your angel got gold plates when Moses had to settle for stone tablets?”

[Hane]

11 hours ago, Antipatriarch said:

...or as Brian Dalton calls them (incl. himself), "Formons". ?

And yet, it's one of the fastest-growing religions (or "branches of Christianity" if you prefer) in the world. I think it's an eloquent commentary on the human propensity to invent, believe, and spread religions (and associated gods). As you say, it's not even quite 200 years old, and is so much easier to examine historically than the original Christianity of 2000 years ago. And yet many, many people believe it.

The LDS Church *claims* that it’s one of the fastest-growing religions in the world. Ex-Mormons say that the numbers only reflect people baptized or born into the religion, not those who are inactive or who intentionally left.

[MamaJunebug]

14 minutes ago, Hane said:

The LDS Church *claims* that it’s one of the fastest-growing religions in the world. Ex-Mormons say that the numbers only reflect people baptized or born into the religion, not those who are inactive or who intentionally left.

And yet I recall hearing church leaders wonder what the Mormons were doing that was so successful. Many said that Mormonism appeals to the ego (men become gods) but some might have investigated how the naturally conservative nature of Mormonism “helped.”

And naybe that’s part of the increasingly bold conservatism I see now. Who knows?

[Mrs Ms]

Not going to lie, if I was forced to be religious and go to church, I would pick Mormon. The games nights and food prepper stuff is the only reason ? Coffee and to a much lesser degree booze would not be fun to give up and I look hideous in high-necked clothing.... Luckily I am agnostic and don’t go to church!

[Howl]

1 hour ago, Mrs Ms said:

Not going to lie, if I was forced to be religious and go to church, I would pick Mormon. The games nights and food prepper stuff is the only reason ?

Also, famous Mormon funeral potatoes, which is a hashbrowns (better: tater tots) casserole with a crispy corn flakes topping.  Recipe under the spoiler. 

Spoiler

 

• 2 lbs hash browns (or tater tots)
• 1⁄2 cup butter
• 2 (10 3/4 ounce) cans condensed cream of chicken soup
• 1 pint sour cream
• 1⁄2 teaspoon salt
• 3⁄4 cup onion, chopped
• 1 tablespoon butter
• 2 cups longhorn cheese, grated, firmly packed
• 1 1⁄2 cups corn flakes, crushed
• 4 tablespoons butter, melted

Saute onion in 1 tablespoon butter until translucent. Mix all ingredients, except cornflakes and 4 tablespoons butter, together. Put potato mixture into a 9x13 inch baking pan.

Combine cornflakes and butter, and sprinkle evenly over top of casserole.  Bake at 350 degrees F for 40-50 minutes or until heated and bubbly.

 

 

[Tangy Bee]

1 hour ago, Mrs Ms said:

Not going to lie, if I was forced to be religious and go to church, I would pick Mormon. The games nights and food prepper stuff is the only reason ? Coffee and to a much lesser degree booze would not be fun to give up and I look hideous in high-necked clothing.... Luckily I am agnostic and don’t go to church!

Actually attended first Mormon funeral last Wed. Very quiet. Arms crossed when they pray. I found that interesting. I was very impressed with all the food after the funeral. Some dishes I was familiar with and a noticed a lack of seasonings...but that's ok because they made up for it with the desserts?

[Talitha Cumi]

6 hours ago, Howl said:

Also, famous Mormon funeral potatoes, which is a hashbrowns (better: tater tots) casserole with a crispy corn flakes topping.  Recipe under the spoiler. 

  Hide contents

 

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NGL, those potatoes might make my heart explode but I would die happy. NOM.

 

[Howl]

6 minutes ago, Talitha Cumi said:

NGL, those potatoes might make my heart explode but I would die happy. NOM.

I know!  How much happy creaminess can there be in one small pan? 

A relative brought a scalloped potato dish to Thanksgiving a few years ago that came close. IIRC, there was condensed milk involved in that recipe. 

[Mrs Ms]

14 hours ago, Howl said:

Also, famous Mormon funeral potatoes, which is a hashbrowns (better: tater tots) casserole with a crispy corn flakes topping.  Recipe under the spoiler. 

  Hide contents

 

• 2 lbs hash browns (or tater tots)
• 1⁄2 cup butter
• 2 (10 3/4 ounce) cans condensed cream of chicken soup
• 1 pint sour cream
• 1⁄2 teaspoon salt
• 3⁄4 cup onion, chopped
• 1 tablespoon butter
• 2 cups longhorn cheese, grated, firmly packed
• 1 1⁄2 cups corn flakes, crushed
• 4 tablespoons butter, melted

Saute onion in 1 tablespoon butter until translucent. Mix all ingredients, except cornflakes and 4 tablespoons butter, together. Put potato mixture into a 9x13 inch baking pan.

Combine cornflakes and butter, and sprinkle evenly over top of casserole.  Bake at 350 degrees F for 40-50 minutes or until heated and bubbly.

 

 

Funnily enough it is the hash browns or tater tots I have the biggest problem with. Though I am side eyeing the canned chicken soup. 

[Black Aliss]

Funny, I was just listening to a Fresh Air podcase where Sam Sanders is interviewing the actor John Boyega and they are bonding over the fact that they are both ex-pentecostal. Boyega is the son of a pentacostal minister.

Quote

SANDERS: How long was y'all's church services? Ours would go for hours.

BOYEGA: Oh, man, same thing.

SANDERS: There was never a program - just kind of, like, wait for the spirit. He's just, as long as the spirit's moving...

BOYEGA: Exactly, you know? And for some reason, man, the spirit takes a longer time for some reason. The spirit doesn't respect time. So we'd go in three, four hours sometimes, you know? And that's particularly hard on a Sunday because, you know, on Sunday, most times you're fasting on a Sunday. And so, yeah, you know, food is the only thing you're thinking about by the time you get to certain prayers (laughter).

SANDERS: So my mother was actually the church organist at our Pentecostal church growing up, so I had to be at every church service, which means that, in the summer, when school wasn't in session, I was at Tuesday night testimonial, Wednesday night midweek, Thursday night prayer service, Friday night church and Sunday service. And then on the fifth Sundays - if the month had a fifth Sunday - there'd be a second service on Sunday evening.

transcript of the interview here:  https://www.npr.org/2021/05/19/998219668/actor-john-boyega-on-star-wars-small-axe-and-telling-stories-of-the-untold

[Ozlsn]

I am so glad my church was mainstream and all moving of the spirit was towards post-service coffee and biscuits.

[Howl]

Quote

The spirit doesn't respect time. So we'd go in three, four hours sometimes, you know?... And so, yeah, you know, food is the only thing you're thinking about...

Lyle Lovett was raised Lutheran, but maybe went to a Pentecoastal service or two, based on this song Church from the Joshua Judges Ruth album.

 

Edited May 23, 2021 by Howl