Alyssa & John 6: She's Raising Sister Moms

[FaithAndReason]

I'm not sure I understand why people here are mad/upset that they met before she turned 18?? I met a lot of men & women who were over 18 when I was under 18. It's called life. They met at a wedding where, presumably, there were people of all ages that you would meet. It's not like he was some sick predator stalking her. He even acknowledged waiting to court/date/whatever until she was 18. Sometime people on FJ like to create drama where there isn't any. John isn't Josh. 

[CaptainFunderpants]

I would wonder if John will or already did get snipped.

She could also get her tubes tied while she's in the hospital after giving birth without much fanfare or notice.

In either case, there would technically still be a possibility of pregnancy, but the odds would be drastically lower.

[Melissa1977]

1 hour ago, JMO said:

She answered that they want to stop at 4 because of her severe vomiting.  She was bedridden for weeks this pregnancy.  It will be interesting to see how they make that happen. 

vasectomy? And giving up to God if the surgery is or not succesful? 

[Kelsey]

The ages quoted for Alyssa and John (17, 22) are not illegal in the State of Florida. We have a Romeo/Juliet law that would allow this relationship. Imo, this is not squicky and is way less an issue than Josie/Kelton. I think at the very least the Bates parents do make them wait until 18 before allowing a relationship to move forward.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Kelsey
Remove afaik bc i do know

[Melissa1977]

It's strange that the beginning of their relationship sounds so cold, but they look genuinely in love and their marriage seems very healthy and respectful. If it started arranged, they were lucky that everything developed well. 

[indianabones]

6 hours ago, FaithAndReason said:

I'm not sure I understand why people here are mad/upset that they met before she turned 18?? I met a lot of men & women who were over 18 when I was under 18. It's called life. They met at a wedding where, presumably, there were people of all ages that you would meet. It's not like he was some sick predator stalking her. He even acknowledged waiting to court/date/whatever until she was 18. Sometime people on FJ like to create drama where there isn't any. John isn't Josh. 

I find it creepy that a man in his early 20's was interested in a teenager and that he approached her father to express that interest. I know that it's normal for their culture but it's abnormal in mine. And as far as I can see, not a single person referred to John as a predator.

[CaptainFunderpants]

4 minutes ago, indianabones said:

I find it creepy that a man in his early 20's was interested in a teenager and that he approached her father to express that interest. I know that it's normal for their culture but it's abnormal in mine. And as far as I can see, not a single person referred to John as a predator.

I mean, I'm not one to defend large age gaps, but in their situation, I do think it's different. It's not like John had a ton of education and was out doing a bunch of binge drinking and had dated a ton of other girls. You also have to factor in how much parenting and how much responsibility Alyssa had at home for so many years. In many ways they were relatively equal.

With the whole "transaction between Gil and John," Alyssa expressed annoyance that Josie and Kelton got-to-know each other before age 18, whereas according to her the interest was mutual between her and John and yet she wasn't allowed to even talk to him until she was of age. It wasn't a Joy/Austin situation where it was allowed to go on behind the scenes.

I also think the appearances of the individuals matter. I'm now in my early 30s, and yet I still look like I'm in my early 20s, and the idea of dating a guy that actually looks like he's in his mid-30s squicks me out, despite the fact that in reality we're only a few years apart. The appearance, or lack thereof, as it comes to impropriety does in fact make a difference, whether it should or not.

 

[princessmahina]

Yeah, I don’t think the Alyssa and John relationship is all that weird or creepy. Jeremy and Jinger, otoh, is super creepy because he had so much more life experience than her and intentionally sought someone meek for a spouse. 

[lumpentheologie]

I don't think it's creepy for a 22 year old to be interested in a 17 year old, especially one close to her 18th birthday, as seems to be the case here. As long as they wait to pursue a relationship until the other partner is of age, I think it's fine. IMO 5 years is too much of an age difference for an underage relationship, those should be capped at 2 years or so. I don't even have issues with a 17 year old having sex (I was at that age), I just think it should be with another teenager so the power differential isn't too much. 

What's unsettling to me in this case about Alyssa being so young isn't that she entered a romantic relationship at that age, it's that she was pushed so young into an arranged marriage that kept her in the cult. 

Edited October 5, 2020 by lumpentheologie

[Tangy Bee]

Gil was probably thinking about how prominent the Websters are in the conservative world and was overwhelmed with pride! I'm sure John didn't have to beg. Alyssa said she "fell hard" after actually getting to know him. I personally thought he had a goofy smile back then. He's had to grow on me.

[just_ordinary]

I mean in normal life John would have talked to Alyssa. She would have encouraged him or not. They could have turned out as acquaintances, friends or romantically involved. We all laugh about Fundies talking about love at first sight- how they knew person x was their soulmate the second they met, brought together by the Almighty. So Alyssa admitting it took some time to see him in a romantic way is actually nice. I mean, in theory isn’t that what getting to know should be? Finding out if you want to enter a courtship with more serious intentions? 
Sadly, Fundies have twisted and perverted all of those things. Even the crazy stuff they made up in the first place. There is no way it would have been seen as ok if John started talking to Alyssa first. They seem to have loosened up, but they handled things very differently then. Just think of Michaela and her years of waiting. It’s pretty twisted. If men/boys want to get to know a girl they have to ask for permission and already are trapped under all sorts of assumptions how things will go. The girls are dealt an even worse hand. I hope the girls have a chance to pull the plug in that stage. I’d like to believe she could have. Don’t know about that particular case though as Gil and Kelly probably drooled about marrying into the Webster family. 
But Alyssa and John seem to be very much in love. I mean they thought about skipping courtship when things got serious. 
Regarding the age difference - 17 and 22 is pretty common in my country. But the Fundie culture is big in completely infantilise their children on the one hand but also giving them adult responsibility way too early. I think the whole bunch has more experience no that they are famous and get exposed to different things. Back then it wouldn’t have mattered if she was 17 or 20.

[SassyPants]

At one time, didn’t  John also mention that initially he thought Alyssa was older than her actual age? 
I think they are a good match and get along quite well. John seems rather kind and gentle. I hope that he can have some compassion where Alyssa is concerned and stop with all the kids. How is she even caring for 3 kids and homeschooling Allie, not to mention maintaining a spotless house, when she’s been so sick for months? You have to know when to say when. 

[Melissa1977]

5 hours ago, SassyPants said:

John seems rather kind and gentle. I hope that he can have some compassion where Alyssa is concerned and stop with all the kids. How is she even caring for 3 kids and homeschooling Allie, not to mention maintaining a spotless house, when she’s been so sick for months? You have to know when to say when. 

I think John can do basic cleaning and cooking (make a sandwich means cooking in that home). I'm sure he can bath the girls and supervise teethbrushing etc. Between Alyssa's heart illness, surgery and new pregnancy, it's been a long time with Alyssa out of the game and he is supposed to have been doing all the work.  I think Alyssa is training Allie to help because it's not fair that dad works that much at home. Plus all the time he's in his workplace, someone has to do the chores if Alyssa is sick.

In addition, John's parents live in the neighbourhood. I would be surprised if they didn't help babysitting or taking them food or something. 

[nokidsmom]

Regarding the age difference between John and Alyssa, I don't find it creepy especially when one considers that both of them are fundies, with all the limited homeschooling, life experience, parental control, etc. that goes with that.   Usually I would say there could be a big difference between 17 and 22 because so much happens in those years normally: graduating from high school, going to college or working, all the experiences that occur in those years.   But John and Alyssa were more limited and IMHO basically more on par in terms of their life experiences. 

6 hours ago, Tangy Bee said:

Gil was probably thinking about how prominent the Websters are in the conservative world and was overwhelmed with pride! I'm sure John didn't have to beg.

Oh, I suspect Gil thought he hit the suitor jackpot when John Webster came to him expressing interest.   Having links to a prominent conservative politician, no way was he going to pass that up.  

[LillyP]

On 10/4/2020 at 10:23 AM, SassyPants said:

And how is it that she didn’t get pregnant for over 2 years? And it corresponded perfectly with her illness? And as soon as she got medical clearance on her heart, she was immediately pg? No sex? They have used some form of prevention along the way. I don’t believe that they didn’t have sex for 2 years.

Well contrary to popular belief, it's far harder to get pregnant than people think. Sure, some people are just insanely fertile and based on family history that is likely the case with Alyssa. But when you stop and think that you realistically have a 6 day window each month you can biologically get pregnant, and most women who are TTC and spent any amount of time tracking their cycle/ovulation, it's easier to prevent than one might think. This is why it's suggested you have sex every other day in the days leading up to your fertile window, and throughout the week, because you don't know exactly when the egg will release. The biggest difference is that the average couple doesn't have that much sex on the regular - while I'd venture to say Fundie's definitely do.  I would bet that A&J either just abstained near her fertile window or used a condom. 

[Melissa1977]

8 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

. 

Oh, I suspect Gil thought he hit the suitor jackpot when John Webster came to him expressing interest.   Having links to a prominent conservative politician, no way was he going to pass that up.  

Exactly. Alyssa was lucky to develop a genuine love for John, because once he approached Gil, she had nothing to say about it. I'm not saying Gil would have forced Alyssa to marry, but he's manipulative and I'm sure he said her it was God's will, etc. 

Considering how many poor fundies there are, isn't it curious that ALL the sons-in-law come from well-off families or families in high positions in the cult? 

[AussieKrissy]

I just want to be a fly on the wall for the convo (that could have happened) between Alyssa and her doctor (when she was unwell). "You can not fall pregnant you will die. What type of birth control do you want to use? "Oh we don't use birth control, its up to God." 

I still find it hard to believe if they did not use birth control that they miraculously did not fall pregnant during that time. Then all clear and bam pregnant again as soon as they can. Maybe god answered their prayers or they abstained, Yes yes I know it is harder than most think to get pregnant statistically. But that has not proven so for these two.  

[CaptainFunderpants]

23 hours ago, LillyP said:

"The biggest difference is that the average couple doesn't have that much sex on the regular."

*snip*

Uhhh, what are you talking about? We still have sex on average every other day and it's been three years.

We make it a priority because, in non-asexual people, the only difference between a best friend and a significant other is in fact sex and so taking part in that activity and saying 'hey, I'm attracted to you, I want your body, I like seeing you naked' is a critical piece.

[OrchidBlossom]

3 hours ago, CaptainFunderpants said:

Uhhh, what are you talking about? We still have sex on average every other day and it's been three years.

We make it a priority because, in non-asexual people, the only difference between a best friend and a significant other is in fact sex and so taking part in that activity and saying 'hey, I'm attracted to you, I want your body, I like seeing you naked' is a critical piece.

No judgment on anyone's sex life (there is a very wide range of timing in healthy relationships!) but I don't think the only difference between a best friend and an SO is sex. Asexual people still have romantic relationships, for example. Of course for many people sex is an important piece of a loving relationship but I don't think it's the only distinguishing factor.

[Melissa1977]

5 hours ago, CaptainFunderpants said:

Uhhh, what are you talking about? We still have sex on average every other day and it's been three years.

We make it a priority because, in non-asexual people, the only difference between a best friend and a significant other is in fact sex and so taking part in that activity and saying 'hey, I'm attracted to you, I want your body, I like seeing you naked' is a critical piece.

There is a huge difference between a romantic partner/husband and a close friend. What it is shared with a husband is not the same shared with a friend, nor the good neither the bad, and the experiences, communication, goals etc are different. I would be scared about the future of my relationship if the only difference about my husband and my best friend was the sex!

Every couple has different sexual lifes, of course. But it happens often that, as people ages, lose interest in sex (ah that funny hormones!), and what makes marriage alive must be found "out of the bed". Not saying sexual life dissapears! But generally speaking, it decreases as time goes by.

[Nothing if not critical]

8 hours ago, CaptainFunderpants said:

We still have sex on average every other day and it's been three years.

No offense, but... how about we talk again when it's been thirty years?

There are any number of reasons why sex drives wax and wane during a longer relationship (yup, sometimes they even come back again after a while, and it's great fun!).

Sex is great, and by all means, enjoy it while you can. I even agree that it makes sense to make it a priority as much as possible, if you both feel that's important. But sex is by no means the only defining feature of marriage

*gets off my soapbox*.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Nothing if not critical

[freethemall]

On 10/5/2020 at 7:27 PM, LillyP said:

Well contrary to popular belief, it's far harder to get pregnant than people think. Sure, some people are just insanely fertile and based on family history that is likely the case with Alyssa. But when you stop and think that you realistically have a 6 day window each month you can biologically get pregnant, and most women who are TTC and spent any amount of time tracking their cycle/ovulation, it's easier to prevent than one might think. This is why it's suggested you have sex every other day in the days leading up to your fertile window, and throughout the week, because you don't know exactly when the egg will release. The biggest difference is that the average couple doesn't have that much sex on the regular - while I'd venture to say Fundie's definitely do.  I would bet that A&J either just abstained near her fertile window or used a condom. 

But that is NFP to abstain during the fertile window, which would be a form of birth control or family planning. She made it sound like they didn't even do that.

[irish_dancing_canadian]

Well one can hope that John patiently waited for Alyssa to turn 18. I’m more creeped out by the whole Josie and Kelton situation. Wasn’t Josie around 15 when Kelton took interest and then threw a fit when he couldn’t pursue her right away? Those are some major red flags for me. 

Anyways I have always found Alyssa and John to be a great match. And as others have stated, they have pretty similar life experiences so the age gap doesn’t seem as daunting. 

[ophelia]

30 minutes ago, irish_dancing_canadian said:

Well one can hope that John patiently waited for Alyssa to turn 18. I’m more creeped out by the whole Josie and Kelton situation. Wasn’t Josie around 15 when Kelton took interest and then threw a fit when he couldn’t pursue her right away? Those are some major red flags for me.

Yes, IIRC there was something realllllly creepy about the first time they met, although I don't remember the details.

[fundiebabez]

Kelton wrote their “love story” on their wedding website, which you can read here: https://www.theknot.com/us/josie-bates-and-kelton-balka-oct-2018