Praying for Resurrection

[Giraffe]

This needs to get national attention so the spotlight can shine on Bethel and the damage its done over the years. This is reprehensible, genuine or not. 

[HereComesTreble]

7 minutes ago, mango_fandango said:

Who the hell would that? 

Not to paint with a broad brush, but Bethel would.  They were involved with the fake kidnapping of Sherri Papini--which also resulted in a 50k gofundme.

Regardless, I don't know if Olivia's death is a hoax or not.  I do know that this is a mess.

[NachosFlandersStyle]

Unfortunately with the local news coverage coming out now I think it's very unlikely that it's a hoax. Reporters have surely called the coroner's office to fact-check.

In the buzzfeed article linked earlier, there's a story about a teen in Redding who died after collapsing on the street due to an asthma attack. The family says that the Bethel members who found him on the sidewalk prayed over him for a long time before calling an ambulance (the church obviously denies this). If it's true that Olive was showing signs of illness the night before she died, it's possible that something similar happened. I obviously don't know, and I don't want to deny that unexpected deaths can happen, but it certainly wouldn't be the first time a faith-healing sect has allowed a child to die of preventable causes.

[HereComesTreble]

17 minutes ago, NachosFlandersStyle said:

Unfortunately with the local news coverage coming out now I think it's very unlikely that it's a hoax. Reporters have surely called the coroner's office to fact-check.

 

This Daily Mail article says they have reached out to the coroner's office and have not yet received a response.  The article also says that it was a Bethel church spokesperson who reported the story of the girl going to the coroner.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7806479/Christian-couple-seek-resurrect-dead-two-year-old-daughter-prayer.html

Still, I haven't formed my hoax vs real opinion yet.  I wouldn't be surprised if Bethel did make this all up.  I would also not be surprised if it's real.  Bethel is shady and crazy AF.

[Wolf in Sheeples’ Clothing]

7 hours ago, adidas said:

I’ll make my usual disclaimer because I’m about to talk about my faith. I’m a Christian. Grew up fundie lite. Please skip my post if you don’t want an opinion from a Christian POV.

My problem with this is that it smacks of people telling God what to do. Nowhere do I see people praying for God’s will. They’re just telling Jesus what they want. He is not Santa. In the Bible when these types of miracles were performed, people approached Jesus with humble requests. Not demands, expectations and a sense of entitlement.

@adidas I couldn’t agree more. 

Earlier on this thread I mentioned Larry and Lucky Parker who’s son Wesley died.

They and their fellow church congregants demanded that God heal then raise Wesley from the dead. The dad was the worst. His arrogant and entitled attitude was just mind boggling to me. 

The whole thing just makes me ragey. The Parkers’s were eventually arrested for Wesley’s death. However, their convictions were reduced. The link goes into way more detail about what happened:

https://medium.com/galleys/the-faith-healer-next-door-7eff360bd090

I can’t get the words out right. But to this guy’s sense of entitled righteousness is sickening. 

To quote from the article:

“...Judge Williams decided to reduce their convictions from a felony to a misdemeanor. “Lucky and I were innocent of all charges,” Parker later wrote. “We were free. Free from the bondage of guilt and shame that had tormented us through our ordeal. Free from the stigma of felony convictions...”

 

Free!?! Dude, you let your son die and painful and 100% avoidable death! How is the guilt of that not eating you alive?

[singsingsing]

I personally think it's real, unfortunately, but here's an easy way they could make it up and justify the hoax to themselves: "We know that God's miracles are real, but the rest of the world won't believe. If we stage a miracle, it will help them believe. It's not really lying, more like demonstrating what God can do. And if it leads sinners to be saved, the ends justify the means."

[JustmeandJas]

This is horrendous.

But I think the mother actually believes that her daughter can be resurrected. She’s one of their worship leaders, she was up on the stage the day after her daughter died, she’s a full on drinker of the Bethel koolaid.

I just hope the implosion isn’t too big and that no one gets hurt.

[ViolaSebastian]

19 minutes ago, JustmeandJas said:

This is horrendous.

But I think the mother actually believes that her daughter can be resurrected. She’s one of their worship leaders, she was up on the stage the day after her daughter died, she’s a full on drinker of the Bethel koolaid.

I just hope the implosion isn’t too big and that no one gets hurt.

This is where I'm at with all this, too. The pain of losing a child must be absolutely horrendous. Losing a child in an unexpected way must add to that, and the circumstances surrounding Olive's death must be particularly difficult for the parent's to accept. There must be so much guilt for leaving, and leaving her with a sitter, even though Olive's death was apparently outside of anyone's control. We have that scenario, and add to it that we have two extremely devout, perhaps to the point of being brainwashed, believers in what appears to be a cult. Then we also have Bethel, and people there who are ready to unscrupulously take advantage of two very devout people in their unbelievable grief and guilt. Perhaps someone suggested to pray for resurrection for some cruel reason, and things just snowballed out of control from there. I imagine in a couple of years, we'll get an article on the full story of what happened. One thing is for sure, though: this little girl has passed away, and nothing is going to change that, not even the most ardent believers praying. And what a cruel message to send to any parent who has lost a child; that if you just believe enough, your child wouldn't have died or would have been resurrected. 

[MayMay1123]

what's going to happen when Olive isn't raised? will there be a crisis of faith for all of the believing church members? geez people, sometimes the answer is "no", as sad as that is. and why Olive, above every other person, what makes her worth more? because they say so? it doesn't work like that. at some point you must go from "why me? why us?" to "why not us?" because shit happens to everyone.

[Eponine]

How long are they going to wait for this resurrection before accepting that Olive is gone? This is about day 6 now, I think, and no indication that a miracle has happened.

I don't know anything about the rules in cases like this, but how long would the coroner's office hold the body? If there is no autopsy I assume there must be some maximum time limit before the body is released to the family.

[Wolf in Sheeples’ Clothing]

1 hour ago, Eponine said:

How long are they going to wait for this resurrection before accepting that Olive is gone? This is about day 6 now, I think, and no indication that a miracle has happened.

It dawned on me what time of the year it is (I mean, I already knew but)... I really hope that they don’t plan to wait till Christmas. 

It would make sense if they did... Christmas is the time to celebrate Christ’s birth. So why wouldn’t they believe it possible that their daughter would rise again on Christmas?

This poor family. 

[Giraffe]

Why are people supporting this?! I can understand the family wanting their daughter to rise from the dead. They’re experiencing what no parents should ever have to experience. But Bethel is massive. There are a lot of people who are enabling this for it to continue! I’ve been part of a mega-church before and just to get one room for a new book study or anything took talking with a number of people and getting schedules changed, etc. This is appalling. 

[AmazonGrace]

Mom's instagram is a tragic place. 

 

Spoiler

We’re asking for prayer. We believe in a Jesus who died and conclusively defeated every grave, holding the keys to resurrection power. We need it for our little Olive Alayne, who stopped breathing yesterday and has been pronounced dead by doctors. We are asking for bold, unified prayers from the global church to stand with us in belief that He will raise this little girl back to life. Her time here is not done, and it is our time to believe boldly, and with confidence wield what King Jesus paid for. It’s time for her to come to life.

 

kalleyheili

Day 3 is a really good day for resurrection. We are overwhelmed with gratitude by your outpouring of love for us and faith for Olive. Jesus is Faithful and True and He’s riding in with the victory He bought for Olive. Olive Alayne means “victorious awakening”. We call on the mighty all-sufficient name of Jesus and we call you back by name, sweet girl. You will live. Thank you for your faith-filled declarations, keep them coming. Worship Jesus with us, He is moving, He is good, He is worthy and He is alive.

kalleyheili

Day 4 is a really good day for resurrection.
All hail, make way for King Jesus! Thank you so much for joining your faith to ours, we feel your strength and radical belief. Keep declaring life over Olive Alayne with us. “It is finished” were His last words before bursting back in resurrection life, so we’re not done. It is finished, so we’re not done. This is awakening. Come alive, Olive!

kalleyheili

Day 5 is a really good day for resurrection.
I’ve never been more grateful for Jesus. He is endlessly worthy of our love, trust, faith and risk.

How many days until strong faith in God's ability to perform miracles must be seen as lack of faith that God knew what He was doing when He let this precious little girl die? 

[ViolaSebastian]

At some point, I have to imagine the coroners office will have to step in if this keeps going. Hopefully there’s a social worker and chaplain (not with Bethel...) to help them process their grief and collect their daughter’s remains for burial. If not, I imagine they would mark her body as unclaimed and bury it in a public grave. I sincerely hope it doesn’t come to that. Olive deserves better and her sister deserves to be able to visit her grave. 

[thoughtful]

I went looking for laws regarding morgue storage of a body. Didn't find a limit, but did find general info from the coroner's office. They say "by the next day" but don't seem to have any way to enforce it.

https://www.co.shasta.ca.us/docs/libraries/sheriff-docs/docs/coroners-office---helpful-information.pdf?sfvrsn=4

Quote

The following information is provided to assist you during this difficult time. If you have any questions or need assistance, please feel free to contact our office at (530) 225-5551.You will need to contact a funeral home of your choice by the next day.

Quote

The Shasta County Board of Supervisors has instituted a $100.00 fee for the removal and transportation of your loved ones remains. This fee can be paid to the Shasta County Coroner’s Office. A morgue storage fee of $50.00 will be applied per day if a signed release is not completed.

Well, there's some use for the GFM money.

ETA - here's what else they are praying for at Bethel:
https://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/god-is-angry-and-will-put-an-end-to-impeachment-says-bethel-pastor/

Edited December 19, 2019 by thoughtful

[dripcurl]

You are right @ViolaSebastian - the California laws regarding the deceased:

“7104.1. If, within 30 days after the coroner notifies or diligently attempts to notify the person responsible for the interment of a decedent's remains which are in the possession of the coroner, the person fails, refuses, or neglects to inter the remains, the coroner may inter the remains. The coroner may recover any expenses of the interment from the responsible person.”

 

Would this family really wait until the final hour? They would let their child lay on a cold metal tray for a month because of their stupid cult? However, a parent 4th in line in power if another power of attorney has been assigned (2 and 3 are a spouse or adult child which obviously does not apply)

 

“7100. (a) The right to control the disposition of the remains of a deceased person, the location and conditions of interment, and arrangements for funeral goods and services to be provided, unless other directions have been given by the decedent pursuant to Section 7100.1, vests in, and the duty of disposition and the liability for the reasonable cost of disposition of the remains devolves upon, the following in the order named: (16462)

(1) An agent under a power of attorney for health care who has the right and duty of disposition under Division 4.7 (commencing with Section 4600) of the Probate Code, except that the agent is liable for the costs of disposition only in either of the following cases: (16463)

(A) Where the agent makes a specific agreement to pay the costs of disposition. (16464)

(B) Where, in the absence of a specific agreement, the agent makes decisions concerning disposition that incur costs, in which case the agent is liable only for the reasonable costs incurred as a result of the agent's decisions, to the extent that the decedent's estate or other appropriate fund is insufficient. (16465)

.

.

(4) The surviving competent parent or parents of the decedent. If one of the surviving competent parents is absent, the remaining competent parent shall be vested with the rights and duties of this section after reasonable efforts have been unsuccessful in locating the absent surviving competent parent. (16468)“

 

I hope this family stops this madness after a week. Of course I wish they never started, but a week is much longer than any account in the Bible (correct me if I am wrong).

 

 

[Jasmar]

I don’t understand why there hasn’t been an automatic autopsy, given that there was no obvious cause of death in a child.

[NachosFlandersStyle]

Someone on reddit mentioned that waiting like this also means that she can't be an organ donor. Just one more way that these beliefs stand in the way of helping people.

[AmazonGrace]

10 minutes ago, NachosFlandersStyle said:

Someone on reddit mentioned that waiting like this also means that she can't be an organ donor. Just one more way that these beliefs stand in the way of helping people.

If the facts are as reported and she was found unresponsive at someone's home and couldn't be revived and they didn't know when exactly she stopped breathing and what she died of, it's pretty likely that she wasn't a viable organ donor candidate to begin with. 

[Giraffe]

It’s irrelevant in this case because of how Olive died, but @NachosFlandersStyle, you make a good point. Although it could also be argued that if she were to rise from the dead she could be brought back with brand new organs, too (I mean no respect to those who’ve lost loved ones. In this case, though, it becomes one big rabbit trail of “but, what about...” that can never be answered). 
 

Bill Johnson (head pastor) needs to be held accountable for allowing this to continue. This is spiritually abusive to the family* in one of the worst possible ways!

*for anyone participating, but certainly the family is at the center of this tragedy. 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Giraffe

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

We had a situation like this in Canada some years back.  People were up in arms over the whole thing and demanding something be done, the bottom line was they weren’t doing anything illegal.  Appalling and disgusting, but not illegal.  

These are predatory churches and foolish people will continue to get sucked in.  It just makes me feel ill.

 I’m so happy we have a bastion of sanity like freejinger in the world.

[theotherelise]

The first thing I thought when I saw this yesterday was if anyone else in the congregation has suffered a loss in the past. What if your sister died or mom passed away at only age 45. Did none of those deaths warrant a resurrection prayer? Why this situation? Because she was so young? Are all parents who don't pray for resurrection of their deceased young children negligent in these people's eyes? Do they think no one should ever die, or just this little girl?

I'm sure someone "received a word from the Lord" or whatever. But still. Just so troubling that they've continued on. 

I grew up early on in a word of faith church and my parents got more mainstream, but many classmates at my Christian school still had families who believed that healing was always going to happen with perfect faith. I watched a classmate's mom slowly die of cancer and the kids be wholly unprepared for her passing because the family had never wanted to admit death was an option or it would show a lack of faith. (Of course you can only prepare so much, but some preparation and conversation can ease that particular situation)

[adidas]

In a weird way, this situation reminds me of the snake handling pastors who claim their faith will allow them to handle venomous snakes safely (and who then get bitten and die).

[theotherelise]

Sacramento Bee has an update from a couple hours ago: https://www.sacbee.com/news/california/article238558598.html

Sgt. Torum is with Redding police:

“The autopsy has been done. There’s no official result,” Torum said. “It’s still pretty early. We’re still talking to witnesses and going through information. It takes time.”

Edited December 19, 2019 by theotherelise
bolding

[Nikedagain?]

1 hour ago, theotherelise said:

The first thing I thought when I saw this yesterday was if anyone else in the congregation has suffered a loss in the past. What if your sister died or mom passed away at only age 45. Did none of those deaths warrant a resurrection prayer? Why this situation? Because she was so young? Are all parents who don't pray for resurrection of their deceased young children negligent in these people's eyes? Do they think no one should ever die, or just this little girl?

I'm sure someone "received a word from the Lord" or whatever. But still. Just so troubling that they've continued on. 

I grew up early on in a word of faith church and my parents got more mainstream, but many classmates at my Christian school still had families who believed that healing was always going to happen with perfect faith. I watched a classmate's mom slowly die of cancer and the kids be wholly unprepared for her passing because the family had never wanted to admit death was an option or it would show a lack of faith. (Of course you can only prepare so much, but some preparation and conversation can ease that particular situation)

I've seen a couple of references to the "miracle that befell little Jackson a few years ago". Anyone know what that's about? Bethel is taking credit for it, so it must be a member's child?