Josh, Anna, the M' kids Part 20: Girl Needs Some Serious Therapy

[SilverBeach]

On 6/20/2019 at 4:25 PM, VelociRapture said:

Just a reminder that we have a thread for name guesses. It makes it easier for @Carm_88 to keep track of them for the guess lists (I believe she compiles them.)  

Thanks, my eyes glaze over when the name talk starts. 

15 hours ago, WarriorJane said:

There was never any indication that Jessa was ever punished for stealing the music box.  Just Jana having to give away something she loved and being made to feel bad about  feeling bad.  Might explain why Jana seems to be in no hurry to raise a giant family,  and why Jessa can be a smug little bitch.  What kind of lesson is that?  These kids really never had a chance.   Fuck Boob and Mechelle.

This was horrible. In a family with few personal possessions, instead of teaching Jessa to leave other people's shit alone, Jana was turned into a martyr. Ridiculous emotional abuse.  I remember seeing Jana choke up and it was one of the few, if not only, moments that I felt sympathy  for any Duggar. None of this was "godly" and this is why women in the cult have no boundaries.

[Iamtheway]

On 6/21/2019 at 3:07 AM, TheDuggarnaut said:

Can you imagine her at 15 and her friends saying "I'm going to a party for Dithy Duggar"? 

Dithy Duggar...just, no.

I agree that there are many variations of Mary that could be used. Maybe they will let Amy have Mary for a future daughter.

You think Dithy Duggar will have parties and friends at 15? I really hope so but I doubt it. She will have church, cousins and a buddy group to look after.

On 6/21/2019 at 7:35 PM, BachelorToTheRapture said:

I just read it. It claims an anonymous source, and that website is not known for always being truthful. It's similar to what we already know. The source claims that the church fell apart after the scandal, Josh's head was shaved in front of everyone and he cried. It claims that they convinced him to have his head shaved by threatening to shave the head of one of his victims instead. Says he went away with the man they knew to recover, and that there were incidents after it was found out about. It also says that he wasnt allowed to play with other kids and was socially isolated after the molestations. 

Again, I dont want to take what an anonymous radar online source says as fact, but all of that seems very similar to what we already know, though I had not heard about the social isolation before. Does anyone know if that's true in this case or commonly practiced after such incidents in their community? It doesn't seem like it from what I know.

Josh really never had the chance to become a decent human being. JB and Michelle really didn’t handle him in a good way at all. Not before the abuse and definitly not after it.

If only Josh had learned something from their crappy example so that he could be a better parent to his own children. Not holding my breath for that ...

 

Edited June 22, 2019 by Iamtheway
Added a thought.

[Daisy0322]

20 hours ago, frugalitymom said:

The head shaving reminds me of one of the early episodes and Josh’s head was shaved.  It all seems to fit together now.

 Among other things... I can't figure out why in earth a "punishment" for molesting would be to have your head publicly shaved?  It makes no sense, I mean especially because they seem to like they're boys with short hair anyway.

[Glasgowghirl]

10 hours ago, Daisy0322 said:

 Among other things... I can't figure out why in earth a "punishment" for molesting would be to have your head publicly shaved?  It makes no sense, I mean especially because they seem to like they're boys with short hair anyway.

They thought a bit of construction work and public humiliation would stop him from molesting more girl's. As far as we are aware he hasn't offended again but Josh not receiving any treatment is concerning.

[Cleopatra7]

10 hours ago, Daisy0322 said:

 Among other things... I can't figure out why in earth a "punishment" for molesting would be to have your head publicly shaved?  It makes no sense, I mean especially because they seem to like they're boys with short hair anyway.

I think there is still a big difference between a fifteen year old with a short and a fifteen year old with a shaved head, especially when all his brothers have the usual pomaded crew cut. Even back then, people on TWoP noticed how Josh’s shaved head seemed out of place in a family where conformity was so emphasized. The involuntary shaving of heads has been used for a long time to shame and humiliate. 

[FluffySnowball]

13 hours ago, Daisy0322 said:

 Among other things... I can't figure out why in earth a "punishment" for molesting would be to have your head publicly shaved?  It makes no sense, I mean especially because they seem to like they're boys with short hair anyway.

What especially bothers me about this is the humiliation aspect and the interference with someone’s, in this case Josh’s, physical integrity. I don’t know if I can make myself clear here...

Well, the way I see it, the crucial point here is that the IBLP-cult doesn’t allow its members the freedom to make body-related (and other) choices on their own. There is a way boys and men ought to dress, do their hair and conduct themselves, while similar standards also exist for girls and women. Personal preferences and styles are constantly suppress and negated. That is already potentially humiliating, no matter if someone regards it this way or not. Then, if you disobey, the public humiliation (though private wouldn’t make it much better!) of getting your hair shaved and appearance altered even more is added into the already miserable mix. Not only is it insanely - and I repeat myself here - humiliating, it is also both threat and entertainment for those watching. People might gloat and feel they are the better, more God-fearing Christians but they are also shown what could potentially happen to them. 

What Josh did was horrible, he victimized people, mainly four of his sisters, who likely trusted and loved him very much. Still, isn’t what his parents and church did in a way similar to his own actions? Josh victimized and humiliated someone. Yet he was also victimized and humiliated. Things were also done to his body that he did not choose, and in his case, they was even done publicly. So, while I don’t mean to defend Josh in any way, shape or form, I also wanna say: Shame on you, Michelle und JB! You brought this on yourselves. 

Edited June 23, 2019 by FluffySnowball

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, FluffySnowball said:

He victimized and humiliated someone. Yet he was also victimized and humiliated. Things were also done to his body that he did not choose, and in his case, they was even done publicly. So, while I don’t mean to defend Josh in any way, shape, or form, I also wanna say: Shame on you, Michelle und JB! You brought this on yourselves. 

I agree that violating someone’s bodily autonomy is a terrible way to punish anyone - cruel as well as counter productive.

However there is no moral equivalency here.  The humiliation and victimization of the headshaving in this instance cannot be compared to the humiliation and victimization of sexually assaulting prepubescent girls.

That is reminiscent of fundy thinking that all sins are equal.  They aren’t.  I.e. Verbally abusing someone is bad, stabbing them is worse.  

Michelle and JB have a lot of responsibility in this absolutely, but that doesn’t absolve Josh of his.

 

[Palimpsest]

@HerNameIsBuffy, I don't think anyone is absolving Josh of responsibility.  I think the point is that publicly and forcibly shaving someone's head (whatever the crime) is generally accepted as a form of unacceptably abusive punishment.  In many cultures.

And in the case of an adolescent sex offender publicly and abusively shaving his head is not going to do a damn thing to solve the serious underlying problems.

As for the (unproven and unprovable) allegations that they forced Josh to comply with having his head shaved by threatening his victim(s) with the same punishment -- if true, words fail me.

[fellowunfundie]

I have a cousin who named her daughter my name and I have feelings about my name being stolen lol. My name is fairly common and is Biblical, so it's understandable my cousin would like it, but I had no idea she'd use it!

When she was expecting, my cousin made a big deal out of the fact that she didn't want to share the name she'd picked. She'd previously picked a boy's name and her sister-in-law ended up using it for her child, so when my cousin was pregnant with her daughter, she said she wasn't telling the name so that it wouldn't be stolen. You can imagine my indignation when my cousin named this child my name and I had no idea until she was doing so until she announced it in our family group chat. Like, I didn't need her to give me the credit of naming the child after me or anything, but at least a heads up would have been nice since I regularly see my cousin (at least 3 or 4 times a year). I'm still salty about it, can you tell?

[Jana814]

I have a friend from school who was named after her aunt. Her aunt was thrilled to share her name with her. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

37 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

@HerNameIsBuffy, I don't think anyone is absolving Josh of responsibility.  I think the point is that publicly and forcibly shaving someone's head (whatever the crime) is generally accepted as a form of unacceptably abusive punishment.  In many cultures.

And in the case of an adolescent sex offender publicly and abusively shaving his head is not going to do a damn thing to solve the serious underlying problems.

As for the (unproven and unprovable) allegations that they forced Josh to comply with having his head shaved by threatening his victim(s) with the same punishment -- if true, words fail me.

I agree that it’s cruel and counterproductive  which I acknowledged in my first paragraph.  It’s abuse.  

The post read to me as if it might have been creating a moral equivalence and that was the point of my response.

[GuineaPigCourtship]

I agree that it's certainly NOT a moral equivalency, but punishing an adolescent for not respecting others' bodily autonomy by publicly not respecting his bodily autonomy is just ridiculous.  What is the takeaway message?  It's okay if people in authority do it but not you?  What happens when these offenders are the ones in positions of authority?

I am not speculating that Josh has or would reoffend, especially with his own kids, but it just seems like a useless bordering on dangerous message to send.  Kind of like spanking to punish kids for hitting each other, but of course we know the Duggars were on board with spanking.

[Cleopatra7]

I think the point @FluffySnowball was trying to make is that the way in which Josh was punished for his actions was all about shame and humiliation, rather than trying to figure out why he did what he did and how to prevent that from happening again. The only thing Josh probably learned from having his head shaved was not to get caught, rather than not to hurt and violate other people. We’ve seen time and time again that the Duggars think that you can solve serious problems by simply adhering harder to the “proper role” God/Gothard has assigned you. This is why they did with sending him away to work the construction job and his more recent stint in Jesus Jail. The goal of both of these tactics was that Josh would be “fixed” if he simply adds more Jesus and more kids to his life. Since children are viewed as an unambiguous blessing, the fact that J&A keep having kids is a sign that Josh is “cured” even though this only means that they’re just having more kids.  It’s not that what was done to Josh was equivalent to what he did to his victims, it’s that his parents handled the situation in such a way that not only further harmed the victims and didn’t give Josh tools to change his behavior, other than imparting a fear of being punished.

[FluffySnowball]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I agree that violating someone’s bodily autonomy is a terrible way to punish anyone - cruel as well as counter productive.

However there is no moral equivalency here.  The humiliation and victimization of the headshaving in this instance cannot be compared to the humiliation and victimization of sexually assaulting prepubescent girls.

That is reminiscent of fundy thinking that all sins are equal.  They aren’t.  I.e. Verbally abusing someone is bad, stabbing them is worse.  

Michelle and JB have a lot of responsibility in this absolutely, but that doesn’t absolve Josh of his.

 

You’re absolutely right, @HerNameIsBuffy and it was not my intention to compare sexual abuse with shaving someone’s head. If that’s the impression you or anyone reading here got, I apologize. Instead, I merely wanted to draw attention to the fact that Michelle and JB endorse a lifestyle and belief system that does not respect bodily autonomy. 

@Cleopatra7, thank you, you could express what I was getting at more eloquently and clearly! I also wanted to highlight that in an environment that constantly denied people around him any significant say in regards to what they want to do with their bodies, Josh was supppsed to respect his sisters’ boundaries. When he failed to do so, he didn’t get the medical help he needed but his boundaries were violated as a punishment. That’s insanity and doesn’t help a most likely emotionally and psychologically struggling teenager. 

Edited June 23, 2019 by FluffySnowball

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 minutes ago, FluffySnowball said:

 I merely wanted to draw attention to the fact that Michelle and JB endorse a lifestyle and belief system that does not respect bodily autonomy.

I agree - I don’t think they even see their kids as individual people in their own right and that’s at the root of so many of the serious problems.

[Bobology]

4 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

especially when all his brothers have the usual pomaded crew cut.

Did anyone else's brain take a quick flash to the 'O Brother' scene? Clearly off-topic, and clearly more pleasant. Sorry... carry on.

Edited June 23, 2019 by Bobology
highlight 'pomaded'

[Quiver Full of Kittens]

8 minutes ago, Bobology said:

Did anyone else's brain take a quick flash to the 'O Brother' scene? Clearly off-topic, and clearly more pleasant. Sorry... carry on.

Every time I see “pomade” I think of Dapper Dan and that whole movie. It was on last time my MIL was here so I put it at least as a reason to not make small talk for an hour and a half until Mr. Kittens got home from work. I find it funny, my MIL not so much. 

[VelociRapture]

The way I view the alleged head shaving is this:

I’ve seen people advise other parents to, among other things, very gently bite their toddlers to “teach” them to stop biting other people. That seems about as effective as shaving Josh’s head would be at getting him to stop molesting girls. The only thing both of those really accomplish is teaching someone to fear the people taking the “corrective” action (which makes it less likely they’ll trust them in the future) and probably just reinforces the initial behavior. 

Allegedly threatening to shave one of the victim’s heads to force Josh to comply with his own head shaving is just even more messed up, both for the girl and for Josh too. 

[Smee]

 

I imagine the other aspect to head shaving is that anyone who was there when it happened would have a very obvious reminder every time they saw Josh again until it grew back. So for him, it’s an ongoing public humiliation, like wearing a scarlet A.

[Daisy0322]

5 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

The way I view the alleged head shaving is this:

I’ve seen people advise other parents to, among other things, very gently bite their toddlers to “teach” them to stop biting other people.... snip

I never understood that... I did however press my arm on my sons teeth so that it left a little sent so I could show him his teeth were sharp and explained that it hurts when he bites. I was desperate but it actually worked. 

[FluffySnowball]

Is it just me or do any of you also find the Duggars’ birthday message to Anna a bit short this year? Two Instastory slides but no generic “you are a humble servant of the Lord and we are excited to see what He has in store for your future”’-message. Hm... 

[nickelodeon]

47 minutes ago, FluffySnowball said:

Is it just me or do any of you also find the Duggars’ birthday message to Anna a bit short this year? Two Instastory slides but no generic “you are a humble servant of the Lord and we are excited to see what He has in store for your future”’-message. Hm... 

People were saying that the DerJill anniversary message was short too; maybe the Duggars appointed a new kid to manage the social media.

[Tangy Bee]

18 hours ago, Smee said:

 

I imagine the other aspect to head shaving is that anyone who was there when it happened would have a very obvious reminder every time they saw Josh again until it grew back. So for him, it’s an ongoing public humiliation, like wearing a scarlet A.

Wait...I remember his hair cut close back then. Actually thought it made him look cute. Nothing odd about it because I had seen young, local guys with their hair cut the same way. If Josh had been around here, he would have fit right in with no humiliation. Had no idea it was for punishment. Do you wonder if the Ashley Madison scandal had not happened...would the world know the truth about his past molestation issues??  Before it was just rumor. I think it was very naive of JB believing such a thing would be a deep dark secret forever. Sooner or later someone is gonna find out what really happened with Jill the last time she gave birth. I understand they want privacy. I respect that. But I feel it's too late for that especially with them remaining on tv. They can thank JB for that.

[VelociRapture]

51 minutes ago, Tangy Bee said:

Wait...I remember his hair cut close back then. Actually thought it made him look cute. Nothing odd about it because I had seen young, local guys with their hair cut the same way. If Josh had been around here, he would have fit right in with no humiliation. Had no idea it was for punishment. Do you wonder if the Ashley Madison scandal had not happened...would the world know the truth about his past molestation issues??  Before it was just rumor. I think it was very naive of JB believing such a thing would be a deep dark secret forever. Sooner or later someone is gonna find out what really happened with Jill the last time she gave birth. I understand they want privacy. I respect that. But I feel it's too late for that especially with them remaining on tv. They can thank JB for that.

Ashley Madison news broke three months after the molestation scandal became public. He and his family pissed off a lot of people with their Transphobic and Homophobic views, including a couple who somehow knew about the molestation allegations. I believe the women were contacted by In Touch after a photo of them kissing in front of the Duggars’ house popped up online and they pointed the reporter in the direction of the reports. 

[Palimpsest]

28 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

I believe the women were contacted by In Touch after a photo of them kissing in front of the Duggars’ house popped up online and they pointed the reporter in the direction of the reports.

https://arktimes.com/arkansas-blog/2015/06/08/how-in-touch-got-the-duggar-story

Tandra Barnsfield and her wife.  They went public on their own.  But it was an open secret in the area, as was Josh goofing off work at the used car lot to go to strip clubs.

Quote

Indeed, in the controversy that’s ensued it’s become clear that MANY people knew about the Duggars’ story, including many of their friends, political allies and fellow churchgoers. They knew because the Duggars told them.

Yes.  They knew.