Josie & Kelton 5: I just see babies having baby showers!

[Charliemae]

2 hours ago, JordynDarby5 said:

I went to a chiropractor as a baby when I was born via C-section the doctor had to yank me back up which caused neck problems. A few months with the chiropractor and I was fine.

Not to tear apart your anecdote but since you're comfortable sharing it in this context- If you had an actual birth injury a real doctor would have been involved.  Chiropractic is a placebo, of course it seems like it worked. What actually happened is time passed.  I took my newborn to a chiro before I knew better and he "was fine" after a few months too.  The reality is that chiro could have just as easily caused life long problems for my new baby.

There are no studies or evidence you will find that chiropractic is helpful or even safe for infants.  They aren't trained in safe practices with infants because there are none.  

[Kailash]

I found this article helpful. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2794701/

I personally believe that using a chiropractor as a primary doctor is not a good idea. But used in addition to a medical doctor I have gotten relief with several issues. 

[OyToTheVey]

2 hours ago, JordynDarby5 said:

 

It is amazing how hard it can be to find a doctor who will listen. Or they blow you off.

I've had so many doctors tell me that the problem is in my head. I'm imaging things and all the test results are normal. I'm still doctor shopping. No way am I getting hormone shots to lose weight. That's just ridiculous. The nausea, crazy bloating, and uncomfortable feeling are the worst. 

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

I went to a chiropractor a bit as a kid - my mom tried it out for her very bad and frequent migraines. (Poor mom! She had bad ones like every 2 days or so. Imitrex was the only thing that really worked, in the end. And eventually they went away with menopause.) Our chiropractor was all kinds of woo (and he was accredited in the Canadian system!). Seems like the scientific consensus is, it can work for muscle and skeletal pain but don't expect miracles.

I'm pretty sure we've figured out that migraines are complex but related to hormones somehow, so yeah, the chiropractor wasn't particularly helpful.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/chiropractic/

[JordynDarby5]

26 minutes ago, OyToTheVey said:

I've had so many doctors tell me that the problem is in my head. I'm imaging things and all the test results are normal. I'm still doctor shopping. No way am I getting hormone shots to lose weight. That's just ridiculous. The nausea, crazy bloating, and uncomfortable feeling are the worst. 

That's exactly what I kept getting with my current medical problem. Its all in your head, is there something happening in my life, is everything "okay" the nice ones would ask while  mean doctors just straight out told me to seek therapy. The constant never ending pain isn't in my head, the constant never ending inflammation is not in my head, nor the muscle weakness, spasms and other problems. Nor are the times my legs randomly don't work. Its not in my head that I went from being normal to needing a caretaker in the span of three months. My arms or legs or head suddenly shaking like crazy isn't in my head. I always suspected they were lying about lab results. There's no way everything could becoming back normal. When I went to see my current doctor he read through my entire medical file and he ended up confirming just that kept asking me "Didn't the doctor tell you your iron level is low?" Nope. Didn't the doctor tell you your other vital signs are low. Nope. All they ever said was thing was fine and it was all in my head. Its absolutely insane how much they just blow off. Even when there's clear signs of problems. Nope, they will still blow it off. 

Edited September 18, 2019 by JordynDarby5

[OyToTheVey]

@JordynDarby5 I'm sorry you're going thru this. I know it's hard. I was told my levels were normal until I got a copy and saw something that should have been addressed. Like you, I have a series of illnesses. The best doctor I had was my facial surgeon who straight up told me my headaches were caused by my wisdom teeth because they were pushing on nerves. He was right. Headaches went away after surgery. It's really not in my head when you can visibly see my foot swell up so much that my shoe doesn't fit! Apparently that's in my head because my results are 'normal'. The gastro I mentioned, she didn't even want to know about my gallbladder surgery. Ummmm lady that's kinda your job. It's also very important because it's part of the digestive system. I saw her twice. Never going back.

[nolongerIFBx]

According to my (US based ) chiropractor: "Chiropractic doctors go through a minimum of four years of schooling at a chiropractic college, generally preceded by an undergraduate degree in the basic sciences or several years of experience in a prior relevant health care field. Students of chiropractic care must spend a minimum of at least 4,200 hours with their teacher, and a minimum of 1,000 hours of fully supervised clinical training with an instructor."

I understand those wary of chiropractors, but even if it's a placebo, it has been helpful to me. I hadn't needed to take any sick time other than for doctor/dentist/chiropractic appointments for 5 years until shingles got me this spring (which even still, I didn't take any whole days off). Prior to that I had my back go out to where it literally took me 20 minutes to crawl to the bathroom and pull myself onto the stool. Someone offered to take me to the doctor and I begged them not to make me move. Just imagining the painful process of getting from the bed to the doctor's office was more than I could handle. ( I do think now that depression played a role in this episode although I didn't realize it at the time.) So, I'l keep my chiropractor!

[Kailash]

From a quick look around the internet it appears that parts of Canada are pro Chiropractic care and Australia is anti Chiropractic care. There are many differing viewpoints in the US. 

[Charliemae]

To be perfectly clear I don't care what any of you grown adults choose to do with your own health.  Chiropractors should not be adjusting infants. 

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, Kailash said:

I found this article helpful. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2794701/

I personally believe that using a chiropractor as a primary doctor is not a good idea. But used in addition to a medical doctor I have gotten relief with several issues. 

So it seems like there is no evidence that the claims chiropractors can cure infant and baby issues is true. If someone is treating a medical condition based on no scientific evidence then they are using woo. If an adult wants to use woo to cure shit that is one thing but while this might just be a harmless waste of money that gets some placebo effect, google shows it has also at least broken the neck of one baby.

 

 

[Screamapillar]

10 minutes ago, Charliemae said:

To be perfectly clear I don't care what any of you grown adults choose to do with your own health.  Chiropractors should not be adjusting infants. 

Yes, these are my feelings as well. I've never had the need to visit a chiropractor, but I did consider seeing one when my son was breech. There's something they do called the Webster Technique that is like 50/50 on helping babies turn head down. I researched it and watched online videos and it seemed pretty harmless. (For what it's worth I asked my OB about it and she said she had her skepticisms about the technique but it couldn't hurt. Might give me some relaxation time at the very least.) Fortunately, my son turned on his own at about 37 weeks, but if he hadn't I'd already gotten info on chiropractors in my area who perform the technique.

But, I'm an adult and seeing the chiropractor would have been my decision. I guess I'm kind of a "show me the science" person. I wouldn't want anyone attempting adjustments to my child's body unless they could show me an x-ray and point out what bones or whatever are out of place and need adjusting. If something is really out of whack in a baby, like torticollis that doesn't correct after physical therapy or hip dysplasia, orthotics are used in those situations.

The claims that chiropractors can cure colic is one of the things that does seem like a bit of woo to me. My daughter had colic and it was no picnic, so I can maybe understand why someone might see a chiropractor out of desperation for that issue, but again, I'm skeptical. I read about chiropractors treating colicky babies a bit when I was in the trenches of dealing with a colicky baby, but I didn't want to risk it. I just pictured my tiny baby, who was as healthy as a horse and had no other issues other than she screamed for 4 hours a night, being manhandled by a stranger and it completely turned me off.

This isn't the first time that chiropractic adjustments for infants has come up on FJ. One of the Duggar associates, Kristen the taco lady I think, posted about taking her baby to a chiropractor and the issue was debated then. I wonder if this is becoming a trend for fundie moms.

 

 

[Kailash]

1 minute ago, formergothardite said:

So it seems like there is no evidence that the claims chiropractors can cure infant and baby issues is true. If someone is treating a medical condition based on no scientific evidence then they are using woo. If an adult wants to use woo to cure shit that is one thing but while this might just be a harmless waste of money that gets some placebo effect, google shows it has also at least broken the neck of one baby.

 

 

I think the problem is that there are too many variables to be able to prove efficacy of chiropractic care, especially in children or infants. I’m not suggesting that every parent should have their child adjusted by a chiropractor. I personally believe that if a parent knows and trusts a chiropractor and feels their child would benefit from a chiropractic adjustment, it’s not child endangerment to have the child gently manipulated. 

My main issue is with blanket statements. “No infant should ever be adjusted by a chiropractor.” 

One child having their neck broken by a chiropractor means the chiropractor did something wrong. It doesn’t mean every chiropractor will break every infants neck. 

I’m absolutely fine with the idea that not all parents will trust chiropractic care. But I think it is an option that can sometimes provide relief, regardless of age. Would I allow my chiropractor to twist my infants neck like she does mine? Hell no. But she would never suggest such a thing. Babies are much more relaxed and pliable than adults. Often it only takes gentle pressure to correct a misalignment in an infant. 

As far as claims that chiropractic care helps colic, I’ve never advocated for that. Colic seems like a digestive issue so I don’t think chiropractors could help much if at all. I do think realigning the ear could help ear infections, from personal experience. Do I think chiropractic care should replace medical care? No way. It should be used in conjunction with. 

As with most things, fundies have a way of taking things too far with regards to chiropractic care. 

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, Kailash said:

My main issue is with blanket statements. “No infant should ever be adjusted by a chiropractor.” 

My issue is that it seems like we are dealing with a situation where a chiropractors are basing care for young babies on methods that have no scientific backing. At best everything they do is just a placebo. But they also don't have the training to be able to properly identify if a child coming just has colic and this trip might be a placebo for the parents or if there is something more going on. 

As for ear infections. 

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/separating-fact-from-fiction-in-pediatric-medicine-ear-infections/

Quote

Despite numerous claims to the contrary, chiropractic manipulation plays absolutely no role in the management of ear infections in kids. The American Association of Chiropractic disagrees, claiming that adjustments to the back of the skull and the first cervical vertebra can improve drainage of the middle ear. If true, this would be helpful, but it is utter nonsense as no chiropractic manipulation can move the bones of the skull around without causing pain or injury, and there is no proven link between the position of the first cervical vertebra and the drainage of the middle ear.

Sure, there might actually be times a chiropractor could help a baby, but it most certainly wouldn't involve curing colic and ear infections and asthma and everything else that they claim. I'm sure there are good chiropractors who would never suggest that they could cure infants of  various illnesses, but it seems like there are way too many who do. And if a chiropractor is saying they can cure these sorts of things, everyone should be aware they are not basing this on any scientific evidence. 

[CTRLZero]

2 hours ago, OyToTheVey said:

The best doctor I had was my facial surgeon who straight up told me my headaches were caused by my wisdom teeth because they were pushing on nerves. He was right. Headaches went away after surgery.

Just wanted to chime in and tell you of my experience.  For decades I've had occasional, but rather violent, dizzy spells.  It's mystified doctors and neurologists.  Finally, a couple of years ago, I had a troublesome tooth extracted.  Dizzy spells gone.  It's amazing how all these nerves are interconnected and cause problems that are not easy to diagnose.

[OyToTheVey]

9 minutes ago, CTRLZero said:

Just wanted to chime in and tell you of my experience.  For decades I've had occasional, but rather violent, dizzy spells.  It's mystified doctors and neurologists.  Finally, a couple of years ago, I had a troublesome tooth extracted.  Dizzy spells gone.  It's amazing how all these nerves are interconnected and cause problems that are not easy to diagnose.

It's crazy right?!!?! How one little tooth you didn't even feel for years gave you so much trouble. The pounding headaches were gone. I only went to him because I wanted to get Invisilgn and had a full mouth x-ray done and the dentist told me to get them extracted for better alignment results. 

[Travlr98]

A couple of years ago I had headaches that wouldn't go away.  My doctor told me to take pain meds and go.to the ER if they got worse. I went to my chiropractor and they help my headaches. They have a nurse practitioner on staff and they also offer physical therapy. At least the people in my chiropractors off are very caring and put the patient first. Right now I am going to them to help my knee pain. 

[fluffernutter]

I had a birth injury and it was recommended to me after 8 weeks of PT that I get a hip replacement. I was 28 years old.  I got a second opinion from a chiropractor and within 3 months I was completely fine. That was 18 years ago. That chiropractor gave me my life back and I wouldn't hesitate to go back to them. I took my kids on numerous occasions after that as well. 

[Kelsey]

I saw a chiropractor at my doctor's suggestion for headaches. I was having headaches daily that meds wouldn't touch. Turns out my muscles and vertebra were to tight. A couple of adjustments and now I'm good.

 

The chiropractor I saw was very clear that they could only help certain musculoskeletal conditions and wouldn't see children. 

[FluffySnowball]

5 hours ago, Screamapillar said:

This isn't the first time that chiropractic adjustments for infants has come up on FJ. One of the Duggar associates, Kristen the taco lady I think, posted about taking her baby to a chiropractor and the issue was debated then. I wonder if this is becoming a trend for fundie moms.

There seems to be so much skepticism regarding science among fundamentalists, many are anti-vax, claim the evolution isn’t true, climate change is a hoax... it’s not surprising such people wholeheartedly endorse chiropractors or anything woo.

A question to you guys from the US: Are chiropractors cheaper than doctors? If so, this might be another reason some people without insurance seek them out. 

That being said, I’ve never gone to one because I never felt I needed one. I know people who go there and are happy so I honestly assumed their methods are scientifically proven to work and am surprised this isn’t the case. A good (and not fundy!) friend of mine loves them. She lives in NZ and that’s where I first heard about them, but I’ve also heard of them in Germany recently, 

From what you guys have said, I think I’d be very cautious to take a baby there. But as an adult, it might be worth trying depending on the circumstances. Anyways, this discussion has prompted me to look into the topic more. 

Edited September 18, 2019 by FluffySnowball

[QuiverFullofBooks]

I hadn’t caught up on this thread in a while. Oddly enough, I’m about to head to a chiropractor appointment. I have scoliosis and my body gets out of alignment very easily, so I usually see her every couple of weeks. 

[Granwych]

On 9/17/2019 at 2:24 PM, Ms.Pickle said:

Jus saw josie insta stories on her taking willow to a chiropractor. Now im not a mamma but iv never heard of that before.. so whyy would you take a new born to a chiropractor?!?

Because you are a stupid Bates.

Is it apparent that I'm antichiropractic for the most part?  Certainly for infants and children.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Granwych
Addendum

[Kailash]

@FluffySnowball I’m in the middle of the United States (Kansas) and for me chiropractic care is the same price as one medical visit copay. 

[LillyP]

I'm a believer in Chiropractic care. I've been a part of a bootcamp style workout group for years and often are doing runs on super uneven surfaces like trails and on the beach. I messed up my hip from running on an uneven incline on the beach and suffered through pain for a couple of weeks that wasn't getting better. After just a few visits to the Chiro and it fixed me up. I've had a few different occasions over the years where getting adjustments has helped me. 

[formergothardite]

8 hours ago, LillyP said:

I messed up my hip from running on an uneven incline on the beach and suffered through pain for a couple of weeks that wasn't getting better. After just a few visits to the Chiro and it fixed me up. I've had a few different occasions over the years where getting adjustments has helped me. 

I can absolutely see where chiropractors could help in this situation. My husband is very into Crossfit and has gotten injured a lot so he considered going to a chiropractor. Except the couple he looked into where all into weird stuff about how they could cure all sorts of things.

There is a huge difference between going to a chiropractor for pain caused by back problems and going to one because they convinced you they can "cure" your baby's ear infections and colic. The last is just straight up quackery and chiropractors who say they can do those things are not basing their medical decisions on any sort of scientific evidence. 

[just_ordinary]

It’s so interesting how much the meaning can vary. In my country, chiropractic is an additional training for real doctors or registered naturopaths (who have a state permission aka vocational training). There is also a big difference between a Chiropractor (5 years of accreditation at a university, only for doctors), chirotherapist (additional training only for doctors) and chiropractic (see above). A session with any sort of chiropractic treatment needs to be supported with PT afterwards. Some conditions are unsafe in regards for a chiropractic treatment such as bone fractures, arthritis or slipped discs.

There is also the option of visiting an osteopath. It’s sad to be softer because the pressure is minimal sometimes you wouldn’t even realise that there is pressure at all. That is why it’s ok to use it even with slipped discs for example. The training is similar to the one for a chiropractic. Osteopathic treatments have definitely an air of wooo to them.

While both treatments are in regard to the spine and joints/ locomotor system, there obviously can be benefits to other symptoms as well if there is a connection. But I wouldn’t use any if it for colics or ear infection if I hadn’t tried the traditional way before.

If you truly think your child has a problem your first step should always be to consult your paediatrician. But if you consult a real doctor that can offer additional treatments, you and your child should be safe. No one should use hard pressure or jerky movements on babies but that should be a given otherwise you are dealing with a very bad doctor and I wouldn’t trust him/her to give shots either. Maybe I don’t get the fuss because here many doctors will suggest you try a chiropractic or osteopathic [or transfer you for PT for more severe problems] treatment because it might help if there is no traditional medical treatment necessary. It’s often used for c-section babies. People that only trust in those additional methods but refuse traditional diagnosis and treatments or vaccinations are not responsible in my view though.

Obviously you can have a bad experience as you can have with a traditional doctor. It shouldn’t happen but it can.

Edited September 19, 2019 by just_ordinary