Zach & Whitney Bates Part 7: Fundie Babypocalypse in Full Effect

[SorenaJ]

The problem with names with really unusual and creative spellings is that they carry with them certain connotations that might be a burden for the child later in life. 
 

Choose a common spelling that has stood the test of time and don’t disadvantage your child in the first place. 

[Melissa1977]

3 hours ago, SorenaJ said:

The problem with names with really unusual and creative spellings is that they carry with them certain connotations that might be a burden for the child later in life. 
 

Choose a common spelling that has stood the test of time and don’t disadvantage your child in the first place. 

It's not only kreative names that are a problem. In Spain, despite you cannot change spellings, some names are still a "label" to the child. Usually, English names are used by "chavs", so if a child is called Jonathan or Brian or Jennifer, people tend to think they come from a determinate background. It is unfair, but happens and unfortunately there is some kind of social discrimination sometimes. It sucks, I know!

 

[OHFL2009]

I know just as many girls/women who spell their name Kaci as I do Kasey or Casey (and I know a KC). But the Kacis I know are both from the south, so maybe it's a southern spelling? And they're both in their 20s/30s, so it's not a recent trendy thing. I also know 2 Lacis and a Maci. But the 3 guys I know are all spelled Casey. 

[SorenaJ]

1 hour ago, Melissa1977 said:

It's not only kreative names that are a problem. In Spain, despite you cannot change spellings, some names are still a "label" to the child. Usually, English names are used by "chavs", so if a child is called Jonathan or Brian or Jennifer, people tend to think they come from a determinate background. It is unfair, but happens and unfortunately there is some kind of social discrimination sometimes. It sucks, I know!

 

I actually believe it is the same in a lot of Europe, I know it’s the case in at least France, the Netherlands and Denmark. Parents want an international name, but not too international. 

[rebeccawriter01]

13 hours ago, OHFL2009 said:

I know just as many girls/women who spell their name Kaci as I do Kasey or Casey (and I know a KC). But the Kacis I know are both from the south, so maybe it's a southern spelling? And they're both in their 20s/30s, so it's not a recent trendy thing. I also know 2 Lacis and a Maci. But the 3 guys I know are all spelled Casey. 

I have been interviewing for a job (posting here trying to not think about the phone call that I was waiting for that didn't come today) in Tennessee. I was raised in TN and GA, but dang if there are not a lot of people with i's as their last letter and not just young people. I went through a Becki phase, but every woman I met in this job search has identified herself by noting the presence of an i in the spelling of her name. 

[CarrotCake]

'Khloe with a K' is not that hard, since by saying that everyone will know how to write it. My sister has an uncommon version of a common name (both no creative spellings but just versions, for Dutchies: it's an ei/ij thing). She just has to say "Name with an X" and that's it.

 

20 hours ago, SorenaJ said:

I actually believe it is the same in a lot of Europe, I know it’s the case in at least France, the Netherlands and Denmark. Parents want an international name, but not too international. 

I see it mainly in the combination English first name + Dutch last name.

If the last name also sounds intenational, people will not have an opinion about it but if the last name is really Dutch it is perceived 'trashy'. Which can be an issue if one parent is non-Dutch (so they want an international name) but the kid has the last name of the Dutch parent. 

Edited February 2, 2021 by CarrotCake

[lumpentheologie]

So I have an American first name and a German last name (because my great-grandfather was from Germany) and now I'm wondering if everyone here in Germany thinks I'm trashy. ?

[Nothing if not critical]

1 hour ago, lumpentheologie said:

So I have an American first name and a German last name (because my great-grandfather was from Germany) and now I'm wondering if everyone here in Germany thinks I'm trashy. ?

Not unless your first name is Kevin or Jacqueline ?. 
But honestly, i don't think it's as clear cut as that. American first names can be perceived as trashy, but if you look sufficiently well off, people are probably going to assume you have an American parent or some sort of familial background and will judge you differently. Not sure if that makes it better...
On a slightly different note, when I was a teen, I used to cringe at the East German habit of giving kids American names and then pronounce them as German (Doreen, Kathleen), but after twenty years in Berlin (and some pretty awesome colleagues with "East German" names), I barely notice it any more. 
At the end of the day, attaching any kind of stereotype to a name is probably pretty stupid and only shows your own limitations. 

Edited February 3, 2021 by Nothing if not critical

[QuiverFullofBooks]

12 hours ago, Nothing if not critical said:

Not unless your first name is Kevin or Jacqueline ?. 
But honestly, i don't think it's as clear cut as that. American first names can be perceived as trashy, but if you look sufficiently well off, people are probably going to assume you have an American parent or some sort of familial background and will judge you differently. Not sure if that makes it better...
On a slightly different note, when I was a teen, I used to cringe at the East German habit of giving kids American names and then pronounce them as German (Doreen, Kathleen), but after twenty years in Berlin (and some pretty awesome colleagues with "East German" names), I barely notice it any more. 
At the end of the day, attaching any kind of stereotype to a name is probably pretty stupid and only shows your own limitations. 

What on earth is the German pronunciation of Doreen?

[Nothing if not critical]

4 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

What on earth is the German pronunciation of Doreen?

Hard to convey without a phonetic alphabet... something like “daw-rayne” but with a closed o-sound. And a German r which sounds nothing like the English version.

Actually, I found a link where you can listen to it: https://www.germannames.de/wiki/Doreen

 

[CarrotCake]

The worst I think are American names spelled out in Dutch phonetics. I know I should not have a prejudice about names but when I see that I really do have an opinion on the parents. 

Very common here is writing Dj- instead of J-. All of the Duggar kids would have their name start with a D. 

[Melissa1977]

8 minutes ago, CarrotCake said:

The worst I think are American names spelled out in Dutch phonetics. I know I should not have a prejudice about names but when I see that I really do have an opinion on the parents. 

Very common here is writing Dj- instead of J-. All of the Duggar kids would have their name start with a D. 

Djinger, Djana, DJD haha

[SeekingAdventure]

On 2/3/2021 at 4:34 PM, lumpentheologie said:

So I have an American first name and a German last name (because my great-grandfather was from Germany) and now I'm wondering if everyone here in Germany thinks I'm trashy. ?

honestly, I doubt it. I have quite a few colleagues in Germany with american first names and german last names, and I never even thought about it.

There are certain names in Germany, that you connect with 'trashy' due to RTL II daytime tv, i think it was mentionned above.. Kevin comes to mind.. That does not mean every kid called Kevin is trashy.. I would probably not name my (non existant) kids Kevin or similar affiliated names, for that reason alone (also, I just personally do not like the name) - but I wouldn't judge a grown up for being called Kevin.

____________________

OTOH, I most likely would judge the parents for picking some of those names (https://www.bild.de/regional/berlin/berlin-aktuell/alles-bloss-nicht-gewoehnlich-das-sind-berlins-skurrilste-babynamen-74936228.bild.html)

Hope it is ok that I linked that.. It's the most bizarre baby names that were allowed in Berlin. It's worth a read, and I think you don't have to be able to speak german to realize how weird some of these really are..

[just_ordinary]

I think the looking down on US-American names has several reasons. First, the occupation which brought quite some single mothers. And especially those with mixed race babies certainly had to deal with racism and rejection on top of the social disgrace. Even today the stationed American troops are pretty excluded from our society and the fact that they don’t seem to be interested to mingle is met with at leased raised eyebrows. I think there are good explanations for both behaviours but it makes this live/hate relationship with more and more people rejecting their presence. Secondly, the affinity of especially lower class or better, lower educated classes to choose American makes, wrongly spelled AND pronounced. Thirdly, US-America has certainly lost its status of a „friend“. It’s not even the „dumb friend“ anymore. People love to outright bash the US- while happily enjoying US dominated cultural trends. Even though the shift has set in here as well. I think it’s definitely a shift that started in the late 90s / early 2000s. 
Interestingly enough, there is a clear distinction between US and UK names. Wether it’s actually true or not. More classic names as Daniel, Alex or Simon are more accepted and assumed to have an UK/Canada/Australia connection, whereas Dustin, Jackson or Jayden will get a very snobbish eyebrow and are assumed to have an US connection. Maybe it’s because the more classic names are often easily incorporated in our own language. The are often written the same way so you only realise it when you get corrected in your pronunciation. And often people don’t care. I certainly don’t care if my in laws can pronounce my name correctly (and most did make the effort and do great) or just use their own language pronunciation. 
That’s obviously a big generalisation. There are enough people that still like the US. But the shift has been noticeable and looking down on certain names definitely has something to do with it. We do have a general problem with judging names though, that painfully reminds us that we, as a society, are extremely snobbish and still very racist. 

Edited February 5, 2021 by just_ordinary

[tanba]

13 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

I think the looking down on US-American names has several reasons. First, the occupation which brought quite some single mothers. And especially those with mixed race babies certainly had to deal with racism and rejection on top of the social disgrace. Even today the stationed American troops are pretty excluded from our society and the fact that they don’t seem to be interested to mingle is met with at leased raised eyebrows. I think there are good explanations for both behaviours but it makes this live/hate relationship with more and more people rejecting their presence. Secondly, the affinity of especially lower class or better, lower educated classes to choose American makes, wrongly spelled AND pronounced. Thirdly, US-America has certainly lost its status of a „friend“. It’s not even the „dumb friend“ anymore. People love to outright bash the US- while happily enjoying US dominated cultural trends. Even though the shift has set in here as well. I think it’s definitely a shift that started in the late 90s / early 2000s. 
Interestingly enough, there is a clear distinction between US and UK names. Wether it’s actually true or not. More classic names as Daniel, Alex or Simon are more accepted and assumed to have an UK/Canada/Australia connection, whereas Dustin, Jackson or Jayden will get a very snobbish eyebrow and are assumed to have an US connection. Maybe it’s because the more classic names are often easily incorporated in our own language. The are often written the same way so you only realise it when you get corrected in your pronunciation. And often people don’t care. I certainly don’t care if my in laws can pronounce my name correctly (and most did make the effort and do great) or just use their own language pronunciation. 
That’s obviously a big generalisation. There are enough people that still like the US. But the shift has been noticeable and looking down on certain names definitely has something to do with it. We do have a general problem with judging names though, that painfully reminds us that we, as a society, are extremely snobbish and still very racist. 

I’m not sure I would agree that Germans perception of the us, which has been downhill since the Iraq war, has much to do with it. 
For me, a lot of it is unfortunately rooted in many eastern parents giving their kids these international/US names, and the stereotypes people have with eastern Germans. 
Having an American first name like Wayne, Mike etc. to me screams of not so educated parents, while more classic names (Daniel etc.) scream of education to me. 
 

Im trying my best to not let this influence how I perceive people, but it is very remarkable that I know no one with an “American” name at university, not from when I actually attended myself, nor now from teaching.

[Jewels64]

Speaking of names... Each of my kids is named after a family member. I was pregnant with my third son when my favoirte grandmother passed.  I named my son her maiden name. So I have a Lawson. He is humble and kind and nothing like a Bates boy. Though posting this on FJ makes me feel like I am bearing my sins. ?

[CarrotCake]

Here in the Netherlands I don't think it neccesarily has to do with the opinion of the US but more by the fact that it feels like parents who choose American names are more influenced by popular culture. Which is why it seems 'less educated'.

I found this article where they checked the income and education of parents vs. the names of their children.

 

The first graph is showing elimentary school (Lager onderwijs), low level high school(LBO/etc), trade school (MBO) and college/university (HBO, WO+)

The second graph shows income (X-axis) and trend-sensitive vs conservative (Y-axis)

Spoiler

 

 

You can see that English names are placed more in the lower education, trendy areas.

 

Fun fact: the article also makes a difference within the groups. There is a subgroup called 'English - Kevin'

Edited February 8, 2021 by CarrotCake

[HeartsAFundie]

On 2/6/2021 at 11:44 AM, Jewels64 said:

Speaking of names... Each of my kids is named after a family member. I was pregnant with my third son when my favoirte grandmother passed.  I named my son her maiden name. So I have a Lawson. He is humble and kind and nothing like a Bates boy. Though posting this on FJ makes me feel like I am bearing my sins. ?

A former co-worker of mine just had a son this past summer and named him Lawson.  She is still with the company but in another office.  I so wanted to email her and ask if she's a BUB fan.    

[Alysabeth]

27 minutes ago, HeartsAFundie said:

A former co-worker of mine just had a son this past summer and named him Lawson.  She is still with the company but in another office.  I so wanted to email her and ask if she's a BUB fan.    

My 18 month old son has the same name as one of the Bates’ sons (not Lawson). It’s a name I’ve always loved and I honestly don’t even make a connection between my son and the Bates’. If someone asked me if he was named because I’m a BUB fan I’d be mortified ?? (I’m in the UK though so it would be unlikely, the majority of people here wouldn’t know the names of the Duggar kids let alone the Bates). 

[HereticHick]

On 2/4/2021 at 6:08 AM, Melissa1977 said:

Djinger, Djana, DJD haha

Django Duggar

 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

On 2/6/2021 at 3:53 AM, tanba said:

I’m not sure I would agree that Germans perception of the us, which has been downhill since the Iraq war, has much to do with it. 
For me, a lot of it is unfortunately rooted in many eastern parents giving their kids these international/US names, and the stereotypes people have with eastern Germans. 
Having an American first name like Wayne, Mike etc. to me screams of not so educated parents, while more classic names (Daniel etc.) scream of education to me. 
 

Im trying my best to not let this influence how I perceive people, but it is very remarkable that I know no one with an “American” name at university, not from when I actually attended myself, nor now from teaching.

Mike is usually a nickname for Michael. Daniel is a classic name, but Mike short for Michael is bad?

I also find it ironic that Germans look down on American names, but feel nothing of using a Jewish name like Daniel. 

[Nothing if not critical]

9 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

Mike is usually a nickname for Michael. Daniel is a classic name, but Mike short for Michael is bad?

I also find it ironic that Germans look down on American names, but feel nothing of using a Jewish name like Daniel. 

Mike is not a common nickname for Michael in German, because we pronounce Michael differently.

Also, why wouldn’t we use Jewish names?  Names like Daniel or Sarah have been in use in Germany for centuries, and I can’t see why anyone would have a problem with them. Unless you assume all Germans are antisemitic?

Edited February 9, 2021 by Nothing if not critical

[Bluebirdbluebell]

Just now, Nothing if not critical said:

Mike is not a common nickname for Michael in German, because we pronounce Michael differently.

Also, why wouldn’t we use Jewish names?  Unless you assume all Germans are antisemitic?

I just don't like the bashing of American names.

I wouldn't use Native American names out of respect for the Native Americans, who were persecuted and killed by the Europeans.  My ancestors were European. I respect Native Americans, but I acknowledge what the people before me did. 

[Nothing if not critical]

39 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I just don't like the bashing of American names.

I wouldn't use Native American names out of respect for the Native Americans, who were persecuted and killed by the Europeans.  My ancestors were European. I respect Native Americans, but I acknowledge what the people before me did. 

It's not a question of acknowledging what Germans did - trust me, I do. We do have a particularly nasty history, and I don't mean to downplay it. I just don't see why it would stop me from using a perfectly common name for my kid. A German kid named Daniel might well be named for their great-grandfather (Jewish or not), or the parents may have wished to pick a Biblical name.

ETA: Actually, that’s something the Nazis did - suddenly declaring these names to be for Jewish people only, to mark them as „different“. I should hope we have moved past that.

And the intent was never to bash American names. I personally don't have a problem with them, I just flinch at wrong spellings, and even then, I try not to let that colour my perception of the person. All the posters here did was describe a prejudice common in Germany and the Netherlands - I don't think anyone here supported it or expressed anything beyond mild amusement. Apologies if that was offensive.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Nothing if not critical

[Melissa1977]

54 minutes ago, Nothing if not critical said:

Also, why wouldn’t we use Jewish names?  Names like Daniel or Sarah have been in use in Germany for centuries, and I can’t see why anyone would have a problem with them. Unless you assume all Germans are antisemitic?

I had a discussion time ago with that poster, because she thinks Old Testament names cannot be used by Catholics. In Spain, many Old Testament names (like Daniel) have been not only common for centuries, but also there are Saints with that names.