Alyssa & John 3: Modesty Make-Up

[JermajestyDuggar]

The BMI changed in 1998 from 27.8 to 25 being the threshold to being considered overweight. Which put millions more people into the category of overweight. 

More Americans are overweight now than decades ago. But we have to consider the criteria change when talking about the rise in overweight Americans. 

Edited June 3, 2019 by JermajestyDuggar

[nausicaa]

43 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I’ll leave this here in case anyone is interested in the link between genetics and weight.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/01/190124141538.htm

https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/why-people-become-overweight

You aren't just "leaving those links here" for people to learn more. You are attempting trying to push your side but for whatever reason don't want to do it openly. 

And those links to those studies have already been discussed previously. And again, the very article you link to concedes:

"Although the genetic predisposition to be overweight varies widely from person to person, the rise in body mass index appears to be nearly universal, cutting across all demographic groups. These findings underscore the importance of changes in our environment that contribute to the epidemic of overweight and obesity."

The study does not conclude enough about genetics and weight other than to state "This work illustrates the value and increased power brought upon by using clinically ascertained extremes to study complex traits and provides a valuable resource on which to study resistance to obesity in an increasingly obesogenic environment." Hardly a conclusive link between genetics and obesity...

I understand that weight is a very personal topic for people and thus some struggle to remain objective when discussing the science behind it, but it is also really unfair to mislead people. 

17 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

The BMI changed in 1998 from 27.8 to 25 being the threshold to being considered overweight. Which put millions more people into the category of overweight. 

More Americans are overweight now than decades ago. But we have to consider the criteria change when talking about the rise in overweight Americans. 

That change is irrelevant when discussing the rise in obesity, which is a BMI of 30 or more. That has risen from 13% of U.S. men in 1980 to 28% in 2000 to 35% in 2014. 

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhanes/databriefs/adultweight.pdf

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(16)30054-X/fulltext

And the BMI threshold changed for medical, not superficial, reasons. So nothing changes in terms of concerns for general health. In fact, BMI may be too permissive when discussing certain ethnic groups. 

Edited June 3, 2019 by nausicaa

[JermajestyDuggar]

13 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

You aren't just "leaving those links here" for people to learn more. You are attempting trying to push your side (but don't want to openly do it because I suspect you know you can't back up your data).

Please tell me what my side is? Do you know my intentions? Do you know my background? My lifelong struggle with weight and being ridiculed EVERY SINGLE DAY of my life for three years straight as a child for being overweight. To the point of being a child contemplating suicide? That I’ve lost large amounts of weight in my life and I was suddenly a valuable person. When before I was trash? I was invisible? I was disposable? That I’ve recently lost over 30lbs with a lot of hard work on my own part and it will be a huge amount of work for me to keep it off? 

You make it all sound so simple and easy. It’s all so complex. And genetics are a starting point. Genetics influence huge parts of our lives in so many different ways. And it’s not just genetics. It’s environmental factors. It’s poverty. It’s access to good. It’s education. It’s mental health. 

You may say I’m pushing a side but you most definitely are too. But my side is coming from empathy and understanding that some people have to work MUCH HARDER than others due to their genetics. 

ETA: I think I need to be done with you. I’m not going to risk my own personal well being to converse with you on this topic any further. It’s just not good for me.

Edited June 3, 2019 by JermajestyDuggar

[VelociRapture]

4 hours ago, sparrow said:

Sorry all. I don’t know how to post links from Instagram. But Alyssa put up another Sunday family picture of her girls in matching yellow dresses. I’m curious about everyone’s opinion. They look adorable and sweet, but there’s also a part of me that feels like they look a bit “naked.”  I’ve always thought of myself as pretty liberal regarding dress. And I certainly don’t mean to sexualize little girls. But it makes me a bit uncomfortable that they’re so bare on top. The straps are so long, and the bodice so loose, that they feel more like jumpers than something you’re supposed to wear by itself.  Or something I’d throw a cute little white cardigan over.  I’m sure it’s partly that I’m from a Northern climate, and might have different opinions regarding skin and normalcy if I lived in Florida where it’s so hot. But it piqued my curiosity that I, a liberal heathen, should take notice. So I really wonder what Kelly Jo thinks. Remembering a clip from way back when of her saying the girls could make whatever clothing choices they wanted when they were out of the house, but she just hopes and prays they always cover their shoulders because sleeves are a big issue for her. Granted we’ve talked that particular point ad nauseum already.

I don’t really see anything wrong with their dresses. I doubt they were outside very long without sunscreen and they might have had cardigans to wear inside that they removed when they stepped outside.

What does bug me a tiny bit - and this is solely a criticism for Fundie families and not regular families who do this - is the matching aspect. The way Fundies sometimes match their kids’ outfits just makes me think they’re playing dress up with dolls or they’re dressing them alike because they don’t see them as individual people. I don’t think that’s exactly a fair criticism of the Websters at this point because they have a reasonable number of kids right now, but that’s always the first impression I get when Fundie families dress their kids in matching outfits. 

(And again, none of that applies to families that aren’t Fundie. So please no one think I’m criticizing you or your families if you do this and aren’t Fundie.)

[Melissa1977]

13 hours ago, sparrow said:

Sorry all. I don’t know how to post links from Instagram. But Alyssa put up another Sunday family picture of her girls in matching yellow dresses. I’m curious about everyone’s opinion. They look adorable and sweet, but there’s also a part of me that feels like they look a bit “naked.”  I’ve always thought of myself as pretty liberal regarding dress. And I certainly don’t mean to sexualize little girls. But it makes me a bit uncomfortable that they’re so bare on top. The straps are so long, and the bodice so loose, that they feel more like jumpers than something you’re supposed to wear by itself.  Or something I’d throw a cute little white cardigan over.  I’m sure it’s partly that I’m from a Northern climate, and might have different opinions regarding skin and normalcy if I lived in Florida where it’s so hot. But it piqued my curiosity that I, a liberal heathen, should take notice. So I really wonder what Kelly Jo thinks. Remembering a clip from way back when of her saying the girls could make whatever clothing choices they wanted when they were out of the house, but she just hopes and prays they always cover their shoulders because sleeves are a big issue for her. Granted we’ve talked that particular point ad nauseum already.

The dresses are absolutely normal for a hot summer. That Kelly dressed her daugthers in several layers in summer was ridiculous and a lot of former fundies have stated in this forum that not all fundies are frumpy and that even when Bates had little kids, some fundie families wore shorts and fresh dresses.

[OyToTheVey]

I find white leggings under a skirt and a tank top under a t shirt more ridiculous than a 4 year old in a light cotton dress in 90°. 

[nelliebelle1197]

@sparrow The problem with the dresses is that that are weirdly and poorly constructed and do not fit properly. They would be fine if they actually fit. I don't know if she was limited on sizes or if she ordered them from Ali Baba or some place like that where the sizes are completely off.  But the bodice on each is huge and does not fit the girls at all.

[Ali]

I don't see an issue with leggings under a skirt or dress. It allows girls more freedom when playing. As a child, I remember playing more cautiously, when wearing a skirt or dress because I did not want anyone seeing my panties. I wish leggings had been an option for me.  Some girls, like my daughter, like wearing skirts and dresses. 

[lumpentheologie]

To be honest, I don't see an issue with underwear showing when little girls are playing.  It seems like almost Victorian prudishness to be so concerned that someone could see the cloth that is covering their bodies, just the same as a bathing suit would.  I get that it would be weird to go around as an adult flashing your sexy lingerie, but for little kids in cotton undies, what's the big deal? 

Edited June 4, 2019 by lumpentheologie

[nelliebelle1197]

12 minutes ago, lumpentheologie said:

To be honest, I don't see an issue with underwear showing when little girls are playing.  It seems like almost Victorian prudishness to be so concerned that someone could see the cloth that is covering their bodies, just the same as a bathing suit would.  I get that it would be weird to go around as an adult flashing your sexy lingerie, but for little kids in cotton undies, what's the big deal? 

Solomon, Isaac and John Anderson might think you toddler is whore, dontcha know.

[Ali]

29 minutes ago, lumpentheologie said:

To be honest, I don't see an issue with underwear showing when little girls are playing.  It seems like almost Victorian prudishness to be so concerned that someone could see the cloth that is covering their bodies, just the same as a bathing suit would.  I get that it would be weird to go around as an adult flashing your sexy lingerie, but for little kids in cotton undies, what's the big deal? 

I agree with you, especially with young girls. Fundies will never agree, so leggings will allow these girls to play more freely. By elementary age, some girls may not feel comfortable hanging upside down on the bars in a skirt during recess without leggings underneath or may be teased by other kids if they do. I remember playing on the bars with red shorts underneath my dress at school. A boy teased me by saying he saw my red underwear. It made me feel uncomfortable.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Ali

[squiddysquid]

Kids that age run around without any clothes at the beach where I'm from. Throwback to Anna Duggar putting tights on newborn Meredith under her dress during the peak of summer for "modesty", this is just fucked up.

I've said it before, put gender neutral clothes on a little kid, you can't tell if it is a boy or a girl. So why the fuck do little girls need a shirt under a dress? They don't defraud anyone.  S

[lumpentheologie]

2 minutes ago, squiddysquid said:

Kids that age run around without any clothes at the beach where I'm from. 

Yeah, I mean to be fair I was raised by a hippie mother and used to run through the backyard sprinklers in a pack of naked cousins every the summer.  I was the oldest of the pack and still remember how sad I was when my mother said I had to stop because it was making my uncles uncomfortable.  

One of the things I really like about living in Germany is that nakedness isn't scandalous/highly sexualized like it is the US. People routinely just change into their bathing suits without hiding behind anything at the beach, and when I told my husband that could get him arrested and branded a sex offender in the US he was so shocked.  

[Casserole]

I think they're adorable seersucker dresses for a hot florida day... also that they're poorly fitted. 

 

Also, every time I see the matching photos I just feel bad for the youngest kid who is right now wearing a brand new dress, yay! but due to hand me downs she will be wearing that dress for YEARS. I am the youngest girl with an older sister and one older female cousin and the three of us were always dressed alike for holidays or annual family photos. I could never get rid of the dang dresses because I would just grow into the next one. THE. WORST. 

[Screamapillar]

I put leggings on under my daughter's dresses or with T-shirts in the summertime, and I live where it gets super hot and humid. She's a magnet for mosquitos, especially on her legs, and gets extremely dramatic bumps when she gets bitten, which she then scratches until they bleed. Thin cotton leggings or stretchy kids workout pants (which are ADORABLE, btw) are at least a lot cooler for her than jeans.

Leggings for modesty's sake is dumb, however. If my daughter ever grows out of getting eaten alive by mosquitos, or at least learns to smack them away, I'll let the leggings go.

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, Screamapillar said:

I put leggings on under my daughter's dresses or with T-shirts in the summertime, and I live where it gets super hot and humid. She's a magnet for mosquitos, especially on her legs, and gets extremely dramatic bumps when she gets bitten, which she then scratches until they bleed. Thin cotton leggings or stretchy kids workout pants (which are ADORABLE, btw) are at least a lot cooler for her than jeans.

Leggings for modesty's sake is dumb, however. If my daughter ever grows out of getting eaten alive by mosquitos, or at least learns to smack them away, I'll let the leggings go.

Yep. Mosquitos are a concern here too. Same with sunburn. My daughter won’t always hold still for me to put sunblock on her, so leggings under a dress can be a good compromise. She gets to wear the dress she wants and I don’t have to worry about her turning into Sebastian the Crab. One less battle to fight.

5 hours ago, squiddysquid said:

Kids that age run around without any clothes at the beach where I'm from. Throwback to Anna Duggar putting tights on newborn Meredith under her dress during the peak of summer for "modesty", this is just fucked up.

I've said it before, put gender neutral clothes on a little kid, you can't tell if it is a boy or a girl. So why the fuck do little girls need a shirt under a dress? They don't defraud anyone.  S

Lexi and Allie are both old enough to have opinions about how they dress now. If they genuinely want to wear dresses at this age then I see nothing wrong with that. For children younger I’d likely just recommend dressing them in whatever is clean and easiest for the parents. For us that meant a lot of onesies (paired with soft pants when out or when it was cold) for a while because it gave quick access for diaper changes. 

[SassyPants]

It just cracks me up how all of these gals dress their baby and young girls alike. Many of the little girls I know wear play clothes the majority of the time, sturdy shoes and casual hairstyles. This is just one of the first signs that individuality and choice is drummed out from the very beginning. It sucks.

[nolongerIFBx]

On 6/1/2019 at 12:30 PM, Timetraveler said:

I don't know. Ofcourse a healthy diet and regular exercise is key. But not everyone will get the same results from making the same healthy choices. Just like not everyone has to make the same choices, or the same amount of choices in order to remain slim. I have lived with roommates for years and seen some of their eating habits, and I honestly believe that genetics, to a certain extent, is a thing. 

Thank you. I used to use My Fitness Pal to track my eating. I stopped because of the friendly "If you eat like this everyday, in 6 weeks you'll be X pounds." Because I was eating like that everyday and I still weighed the same thing in 6 weeks. It was depressing. Different things work for different people. Exercise doesn't seem to help me, nor cutting calories, or quitting soda--all things that work for many people. I have to cut carbs- and then I'm so tired and grumpy, I don't even want to be around me!

[OyToTheVey]

54 minutes ago, nolongerIFBx said:

Thank you. I used to use My Fitness Pal to track my eating. I stopped because of the friendly "If you eat like this everyday, in 6 weeks you'll be X pounds." Because I was eating like that everyday and I still weighed the same thing in 6 weeks. It was depressing. Different things work for different people. Exercise doesn't seem to help me, nor cutting calories, or quitting soda--all things that work for many people. I have to cut carbs- and then I'm so tired and grumpy, I don't even want to be around me!

YES! I used that app for months and never lost a single pound. Tracked everything calorie by calorie. I was getting so grumpy, I even had a hard time being around me. Cutting soda never worked for me. 

[nausicaa]

On 6/3/2019 at 3:35 PM, JermajestyDuggar said:

You make it all sound so simple and easy...

You may say I’m pushing a side but you most definitely are too. But my side is coming from empathy and understanding that some people have to work MUCH HARDER than others due to their genetics. 

I promise to drop this topic after this because it seems other posters want to move on, but I do want to be clear here since it seems there was such a miscommunication: I did not attack you or make any type of claim as to your background or personal experience with weight.

I have never said losing weight was easy for people; you are reading into my posts what was never there. I understand that there are emotional, environmental, and psychological factors to consider. I'm not arguing with your empathy. I'm arguing with your claim that it's been proven that genetics makes it much harder for some to lose weight. You have doubled down on that claim without actually providing any further evidence. 

None of my posts about weight have been personally directed at anyone. I understand that weight can be a very sensitive topic for people--I have my own story-- but I also find it irrational that FJ can basically emotionally blackmail posters into not being allowed to discuss the science behind it in an objective way for fear of potentially upsetting others and I don't think personal feelings should unquestioningly rule the day. 

My point is (and has been this whole time): we can't pretend the essential science is something it isn't. And acknowledging that is not disparaging people who struggle to lose weight for various reasons. 

[TheRadleyPorch]

I think something that often gets in the way of discussions about overweight/obesity and weight loss is that we have falsely tied health to morality/worth. I'm an RN, I am familiar with the research on factors that lead to overweight/obesity and the health risks of being overweight or obese. There are real health risks, and all other health factors being equal, it is healthier to not be. I also really, really hate fatphobia and the idea that being unhealthy in some way is a moral failing or has any effect on your worth as a person or your entitlement to be treated with dignity and respect by medical professionals and everyone else. Furthermore, I hate the idea that people become fat because they have "poor impulse control." Everyone has poor impulse control, it's just that different people have different impulses, and some of those impulses are easier to see than others. I have always been very thin, but I am not that way because I have better impulse control than someone who is fat, I am that way because I don't have the same impulses (appetite, cravings, etc.) There are plenty of other areas of my life where I lack self-control--just like everyone else--they just don't show on my body. It is extremely difficult for any human being to deny their impulses/appetite for year after year, consistently. It's why changing our environment/"food landscape" is so important, because individual choice/"personal responsibility" just does not work long term in the food environment we've created (at least in the U.S., where I am). And that's not even getting into the economic issues, which are numerous. 

[melon]

I feel sensitive about weight.I have struggled with my weight since I was 12 years old.My weight has gone up and down for years.

I did not always get encouragement,even from family,like my grandmother.She would be so blunt,it hurt my feelings.She once said ,"Melon,are you doing anything about your weight??I know you aren't pregnant".But,then she switched her focus to my cousin....I lost weight and was down to 116lb(I looked sick...not a good weight for me)but Oma,thought I looked great,and told me I looked the way she'd always wanted to look.She kept telling my cousin about my willpower,strength of character etc,how she thought I looked great,I know it hurt my cousin,too,but she did not seem to let it bother her.When our grandmother died,my cousin said she'd miss our Oma,and hearing about my weight loss success.

And one of my brothers always comments about his ex wife's weight.I have issues with this.Then he asked ME MY weight.I stopped and said I wasn't telling him my weight...it was and is none of his business.He has not asked my weight again.

[19tacos&counting]

Very interesting. Tonight there is a special about the Paine family the same day they announce. Will we be getting an announcement from Alyssa before their special airs next Thursday?! 

 

I would honestly be surprised, mainly because of her surgery, less than 2 months ago. I know they DO preform surgery on pregnant women but still surprising. She also posted the full body shots a day or two ago with a completely flat tummy. 

[llucie]

11 minutes ago, 19tacos&counting said:

Very interesting. Tonight there is a special about the Paine family the same day they announce. Will we be getting an announcement from Alyssa before their special airs next Thursday?! 

 

I would honestly be surprised, mainly because of her surgery, less than 2 months ago. I know they DO preform surgery on pregnant women but still surprising. She also posted the full body shots a day or two ago with a completely flat tummy. 

Alyssa denied being pregnant the weekend of the wedding. She could have become pregnant after but no way they would announce so soon. Or she blatantly lied.

[19tacos&counting]

I honestly don’t put toooo much stock into what they say. I believe Lauren said she was not pregnant, or rather she said “they made that up” when asked about a rumor if her being pregnant, that was 1-2 weeks before they announced