Alyssa & John 3: Modesty Make-Up

[Satan'sFortress]

14 minutes ago, VBOY9977 said:

Off topic sorta but I’ve always found it strange when people dress up so much for church. I don’t know if it’s an American thing or a Christian thing or what but I’ve never experienced it before. I grew up catholic in Colombia and I used to go to mass at 9am and people went on their sweat pants? you could tell they just rolled out of bed but no one cared. People don’t even dress up for Easter or Christmas here, only for a special event like a wedding or a baptism. 

I grew up Catholic in Massachusetts--I'm 50, so this would have been late 60s & 1970s.  Everyone dressed up---I think girls/women all wore dresses or skirts.  Maybe by the 1980s, it was a bit more casual, but still, we would never have worn jeans or shorts or t-shirts. But we dressed up for school too--I used to wear nylons in high school!    Everything seems much more casual now. Most churches are probably just happy that people come at all.

[Palimpsest]

On 6/4/2019 at 7:31 AM, lumpentheologie said:

To be honest, I don't see an issue with underwear showing when little girls are playing.  It seems like almost Victorian prudishness to be so concerned that someone could see the cloth that is covering their bodies, just the same as a bathing suit would.  I get that it would be weird to go around as an adult flashing your sexy lingerie, but for little kids in cotton undies, what's the big deal? 

When I was in elementary school (early 60s) we wore a uniform.  Complete with uniform knickers (panties to the Americans here).   They were dark green, double knit cotton, heavy duty,  granny knickers,  For sports the girls were told to tuck the skirt of uniform dress into their knickers.  It was a coeducational school.

I was also pretty much skirts only as a child.  Not for religious reasons.  All little girls in my environment were pretty much skirts only in those days.  I climbed trees and hung upside down wearing dresses.  I owned one (1) pair of pants.  They were worn for hiking and horse riding.  I think most girls of my age only started regularly wearing pants in the early 1970s.

21 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

I 100% expect more kids from Alyssa, but John's siblings don't have huge numbers of kids, and I suspect he would be okay with pausing for a bit under a doctor's orders. 

10 hours ago, AliceInFundyland said:

That's the problem. I think various couples very much don't want huge broods. But they're (possibly) mentally really road blocked about birth control. SEVERELY blocked.

John's siblings and (or) their spouses aren't necessarily as super-fertile.  It doesn't mean they use BC or NFP.   Alyssa popped out 3 babes in very rapid succession in spite of lots of people here predicting earnestly that she would pace herself and limit her family.  It was almost funny.

Honestly, I think some of these Fundie couples slow down on the baby production out of sheer exhaustion not family planning.  Sex isn't as nearly as tempting when Dad is exhausted* by working overtime to support multiple kids, and Mom is wiped out by cooking, cleaning and homeschooling a mob of muppets..    

*I nearly typed knackered instead of exhausted but that has a whole other meaning.

54 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I don’t know anything about their actual services. Do the girls go to church or do they go to a kids play service (AKA babysitting) while their parents attend services? 

The church doesn't look to be FIC.  On the other hand Alyssa and John could choose to keep the girls with them for the whole service instead of sending them to the kiddie service.  Those are usually not mandatory for children.

[JordynDarby5]

1 hour ago, Satan'sFortress said:

I grew up Catholic in Massachusetts--I'm 50, so this would have been late 60s & 1970s.  Everyone dressed up---I think girls/women all wore dresses or skirts.  Maybe by the 1980s, it was a bit more casual, but still, we would never have worn jeans or shorts or t-shirts. But we dressed up for school too--I used to wear nylons in high school!    Everything seems much more casual now. Most churches are probably just happy that people come at all.

I wondered when that started but 80s seems right. My parents went to church as kids in the 50s and 60s and they always had to dress up for church. I remember how ticked off my grandmother was when she started seeing people not dressed up for church. 

[CaptainFunderpants]

2 hours ago, VBOY9977 said:

Off topic sorta but I’ve always found it strange when people dress up so much for church. I don’t know if it’s an American thing or a Christian thing or what but I’ve never experienced it before. I grew up catholic in Colombia and I used to go to mass at 9am and people went on their sweat pants? you could tell they just rolled out of bed but no one cared. People don’t even dress up for Easter or Christmas here, only for a special event like a wedding or a baptism. 

And here I have to fight myself to not be judgy when I see women show up at [mainstream Christian] church in pants ?

I grew up Mormon and while I'm no longer practicing, I do think there is something to be said for dressing up for worship. Holy means "set apart" and so there's something nice and mindful about getting dressed up for service.

But also: When you exist in a skirt heavy culture, it becomes second nature. Roll out of bed, pull a dress over your head. Done.

[Sops2]

They are dressed up as fashion accessories in a style more appropriate for an older girl or young woman. They're kids, not mini adults.

[just_ordinary]

4 hours ago, VBOY9977 said:

Off topic sorta but I’ve always found it strange when people dress up so much for church. I don’t know if it’s an American thing or a Christian thing or what but I’ve never experienced it before. I grew up catholic in Colombia and I used to go to mass at 9am and people went on their sweat pants? you could tell they just rolled out of bed but no one cared. People don’t even dress up for Easter or Christmas here, only for a special event like a wedding or a baptism. 

You wouldn’t see sweat pants in Germany (but the majority doesn’t wear them outside the house/gym anyway) but Jeans are just fine. Only very very few  dress up and not as much as the Webster’s. That’s proper wedding guest attire and maybe Easter/Christmas but even then the majority chooses more relaxed clothes. I totally understand if someone feels dressing up for church because it’s a huge part of their life but there is dressing up and there is DRESSING UP. 

[SassyPants]

51 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

You wouldn’t see sweat pants in Germany (but the majority doesn’t wear them outside the house/gym anyway) but Jeans are just fine. Only very very few  dress up and not as much as the Webster’s. That’s proper wedding guest attire and maybe Easter/Christmas but even then the majority chooses more relaxed clothes. I totally understand if someone feels dressing up for church because it’s a huge part of their life but there is dressing up and there is DRESSING UP. 

The Websters dress more fashionable for weekly services than many of their cult dress for a wedding service.

[feministxtian]

At any given time you're lucky I have clothes on. Church brings the sacrifice of wearing a bra and some sort of top other than a tank top. However, with temps in the upper 90's/low 100's, well... 

Our church's dress code is "please wear clothes". 

[NonSOTDRT Teacher]

My younger sister and I are only 14 months apart, so my mother would dress us alike so often (especially for church) that being mistaken for twins was a common occurrence. We weren't quite so accessorized, however, but I never really thought they way Alyssa dresses her kids is unusual or weird (I guess I'm just comparing her to my mother, and I didn't even grow up fundie). Just time-consuming and costly ?

 

Funny thing is when I got to be a young teen, my dad had a really hard time with me wanting to wear all pants at church (usually dress pants in the morning, especially in the early and mid 2000's when gaucho pants became popular, and jeans at night). He had a hard time shaking off the 'wordly' belief (looking at you, JROD!!!!), that women were to dress like "ladies" at church by wearing only skirts and dresses in a house of worship, and I got the brunt of this opinion since I was the oldest. It's funny because the older we got, the less he cared as long as we weren't naked ? in fact he thinks that the skirts-only rule many fundies follow is ridiculous, especially after my sister started wearing skirts more when she started dating her now husband, though he is no longer fundie.  

[Hisey]

When the girls are 14, 15 and 16, I’ll bet Alyssa and John will refuse to purchase dresses like that for the girls.

I know fundie girls who were dressed up like dolls when they were little. These girls were furious about how the rules changed when they were about 12. Suddenly short skirts and tank tops were forbidden, even though theyd been allowed, even encouraged, when they were 8

Edited June 8, 2019 by Hisey

[IrishCarrie]

See, I don't have any opinion on the clothes themselves or what's appropriate for church (don't go; don't care! ?) but what bewilders me in this:

HOW ON EARTH do the kids have so many different "nice" clothes??? All the kids in my life have their daily clothes (jeans, trackies,  t-shits, leggings, tunics etc) and then one or two "nice' outfits, that they usually have to be bullied or bribed to wear.

How does Alyssa find the time to shop for all these clothes? Even online, it takes time.

How can she face laundering them? Fancy clothes need to be ironed!

Where do they store them? - just how much wardrobe space can there be in one regular sized house??

IrishCarrie needs to know the practicalities of this!!!! 

????

 

Edited June 8, 2019 by IrishCarrie

[OyToTheVey]

I guess I never thought the way Alyssa dresses her girls is a problem. But culturally Eastern Europeans dress up more. It’s only recently that anyone would wear jeans out to dinner. Jeans and leggings are a huge no no for Temple. Those look like cotton dresses.  they can play in cotton dresses. They’re more airy than a pair of jeans. Most of this stuff is sold at Carters or Target. 

[mollysmom]

Growing up I wasn't allowed to wear pants. I didn't wear my first pair of pants until I got married & moved out of my parents house. (my headship "allowed" it ) and because I'm a creature of habit & don't like change, the churches I went to (by my own choice) were all churches where woman were looked down on if they came in a pair of pants so I still "had" to wear my long modest dresses. Only about a month ago I decided that I was done with that. It isn't me any more and I'm not doing that, even for church. So, I found a non denominational church in my area, tried it, ended up loving it, & I can wear whatever the heck I want. They aren't there to judge what I'm wearing. They don't care. They're just happy I'm there. So I come in with my leggings, or capris or whatever I feel like wearing, bring my coffee & just enjoy myself. I wish I would have done this a long time ago. I'm loving it!

Edited to add, I found a super cute little sleeveless dress, comes just to my knees, & I wore it to my new church a few weeks ago. In all honesty, when I was walking in I felt a little guilty, like I was dressing immodest. (I hate that they still have that hold over me) but I thought...no! There is absolutely nothing wrong with this dress! Just because it doesn't go down to your ankles doesn't mean it's immodest!! It's really hard to get out of that mindset when it's been instilled in you your whole life. But I LOVE the new cute little dress and will keep wearing it & feel great about myself when I wear it cuz there aren't many things that look good on me but that little dress does! 

Edited June 8, 2019 by mollysmom

[HereticHick]

3 hours ago, IrishCarrie said:

 

How does Alyssa find the time to shop for all these clothes? Even online, it takes time.

How can she face laundering them? Fancy clothes need to be ironed!

Where do they store them? - just how much wardrobe space can there be in one regular sized house??

IrishCarrie needs to know the practicalities of this!!!! 

????

 

i get the feeling that Alyssa receives lots of clothes & accessories from leghumpers, online shop owners wanting exposure, and people wanting to curry favor with her Congressman father-in-law. I suspect the girls wear items a few times, then she passes them on to friends and family--or if she is savvy, sells them to a consignment shop or online. I really wouldn't be surprised if she isn't turning around and reselling a lot of these things.

[Hisey]

2 hours ago, HereticHick said:

i get the feeling that Alyssa receives lots of clothes & accessories from leghumpers, online shop owners wanting exposure, and people wanting to curry favor with her Congressman father-in-law. I suspect the girls wear items a few times, then she passes them on to friends and family--or if she is savvy, sells them to a consignment shop or online. I really wouldn't be surprised if she isn't turning around and reselling a lot of these things.

You really dont get much selling a child’s used dress. Even if it is pristine, which is unlikely with a 1, 2 and 4 year old. I suspect she’d only get a few dollars at a consignment store

[Melissa1977]

6 hours ago, HereticHick said:

i get the feeling that Alyssa receives lots of clothes & accessories from leghumpers, online shop owners wanting exposure, and people wanting to curry favor with her Congressman father-in-law. I suspect the girls wear items a few times, then she passes them on to friends and family--or if she is savvy, sells them to a consignment shop or online. I really wouldn't be surprised if she isn't turning around and reselling a lot of these things.

 

10 hours ago, IrishCarrie said:

See, I don't have any opinion on the clothes themselves or what's appropriate for church (don't go; don't care! ?) but what bewilders me in this:

HOW ON EARTH do the kids have so many different "nice" clothes??? All the kids in my life have their daily clothes (jeans, trackies,  t-shits, leggings, tunics etc) and then one or two "nice' outfits, that they usually have to be bullied or bribed to wear.

How does Alyssa find the time to shop for all these clothes? Even online, it takes time.

How can she face laundering them? Fancy clothes need to be ironed!

Where do they store them? - just how much wardrobe space can there be in one regular sized house??

IrishCarrie needs to know the practicalities of this!!!! 

????

 

I have a friend who is like Alyssa. She buys TONS of clothes for her daugther. So I can answer some of your questions.

Time: yes, shopping takes time. But expert online shoppers receive newsletters and adverts of their favourite brands'offers. In addition, my friend daily checks outlets websites at breakfast time. She's very quick in the task. And her only hobbie is going to the mall, so shopping is not hard for her, but an enjoyable activity.

Her 4 year old has, just for the current summer season: 10 or 12 skirts, 15 shorts, several light trousers, 5 informal dresses and 10 smart dresses. Of course, the skirts and shorts all go with matching T-shirts and blouses. Plus several pairs of sandals. Etc. Once she got angry with me because I told her that having 100 hairstyle ornaments was not normal for a toddler. I know I was rude, I appologised. But wow, the bows/clips box was too much for me. The funny thing is that her daughter refuses bows, but as they were dirty cheap, she bought the full collection.

Baby and toddler clothes are small so it's relatively easy to keep in order in a regular closet. But Alyssa's house is not big and the fact she keeps her shoes in her bedroom is an evidence of lack of space.

My friend is not rich. She is obsessed with clothes. And while she only buys offers, it's a lot of money. 

The used clothes, my friend stores it in her garage. She wants to have another girl and to reuse the clothes, but I have the feeling that if she has another, she will buy new items. I highly doubt Alyssa sells the clothes, maybe she stores them for future kids or nieces (Willow?). 

And about ironing. Well, I iron almost everything. I mean... It's not something related to smart clothes. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

9 hours ago, Hisey said:

You really dont get much selling a child’s used dress. Even if it is pristine, which is unlikely with a 1, 2 and 4 year old. I suspect she’d only get a few dollars at a consignment store

But she might get a decent amount of store credit and be able to buy more used outfits. Kids grow out of clothes so fast that some of them are still in good shape when they’re outgrown.

[Marly]

11 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

But Alyssa's house is not big and the fact she keeps her shoes in her bedroom is an evidence of lack of space.

 

I don't know about this. Could this be a cultural thing? Maybe related to whether or not you wear shoes in the house?
Growing up we usually wore shoes in the house. In the evening we would take them off and put on slippers or something, but during the day we definitely wore shoes. So it wasn't unusual to wear shoes upstairs in the bedrooms. Shoes weren't taken off immediately after entering the house, unless they were extremely dirty or wet, so they weren't stored in that area (hallway) either (except for my parents' hiking boots because they were generally dirty, and our rain boots).
My mom always kept her shoes in the closet in their bedroom, and not because of a lack of space. They could have easily build/bought a shoe-rack to place them in the hallway downstairs. I think for her, convenience was the main reason she kept them in her closet. Since my eldest brother and I no longer live at home, they have had two extra rooms for about 6 years now that they can use for storage, and she still keeps her shoes in her bedroom, so in her case it's definitely not a lack-of-space issue. 
Also, if you perceive shoes as items of clothing, or as accessoires, it also makes sense to keep them in an area where you keep your clothes or accessoires. So I wouldn't necessarily perceive the practice of keeping one's shoes in one's bedroom as evidence of lack of space.

[adidas]

This is new to me. If you don’t keep your shoes in your bedroom wardrobe, where else do they stay? Are there special shoe rooms in American houses? Downstairs shoe closets? 

[NonSOTDRT Teacher]

My shoes are definitely in my closet bedroom, with the exception of a few pair of flip-flops in my coat closet for quick access for things like walking to the mailbox, walking to the pool, etc. I’ve lived in Atlanta my whole life and never thought this as abnormal. 

[JillyO]

Everywhere I've ever lived, both in Germany and in the U.S., regular shoes were always stored in the hallway/by the front door. Most people have shoe racks there that hold the shoes they most commonly wear, or they keep them in the coat closet. I do store a few pairs in my bedroom closet, but that's more for shoes I don't wear very often (heels I only wear a few times a year for fancy occasions, winter boots I don't really need in California, etc.).

That said, if someone has a shoe collection like Alyssa, it makes the most sense to me to keep them in the master closet. I'm sure she matches her shoes to her outfit every day and constantly wears different shoes. It's not like she'll wear the same 4-5 pairs to work every day like I do. So there's really no point in keeping 30 or 50 or however many pairs of shoes by the front door.

[nelliebelle1197]

9 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

But she might get a decent amount of store credit and be able to buy more used outfits. Kids grow out of clothes so fast that some of them are still in good shape when they’re outgrown.

My kids wear nice clothes - crewcuts, Boden,  Tea Collection, etc. I buy them on sale for not much more than Target clothes. I sell at the end of the season. I post on eBay and I usually pull back about 2/3 of what I spent on them. It’s easy. I have no idea if Alyssa is buying decent brands (I doubt it) but that is really the only way she could do resale - it is not worth it for anything less than that.

Also, those dresses on the girls look more like tunics. I have never seen that knotted hem on a dress, just shirts.

Edited June 9, 2019 by nelliebelle1197

[LillyP]

Ok, I'll bite on the clothing thing....

I'm totally guilty of over-shopping for my kid, and he has way more "nice" clothes than "play" clothes. Actually he really has not much for "play" clothes. Clothes are one my guilty pleasure and I take a lot of pride in my kid being dressed nice. That doesn't mean he's in button downs everyday by any means, but we are from the south and wear a lot of classic children's clothes and smocked or monogrammed/applique things. Lots of Jon Jons, Diaper Sets, Bubbles, etc. Our casual wear is usually Vineyard Vines or something similar.

 I'm super picky about his clothes and hate anything with cheesy characters or writing on them (unless it's his monogram or name). Most of his clothes are pre-ordered through specialty groups and I always shop ahead for the next season because they take 6 weeks to come in. That being said I take very good care of them and there's a big resale market for those kinds of clothes, so I'm in several BST groups on facebook to sell them and use that money towards purchasing for the next season. I also buy a lot of his smocked stuff off the BST pages. 

We have our fair share of basic pieces and cotton rompers from Carters & Target for casual wear around the house or playing outside, but usually when we're out and about he's in his nice stuff. The way I look at it is plenty of people spend $6/day on a coffee, or $20/day on lunch out, or money on getting their hair/nails done every few weeks. I do none of that and prefer to spend my money on dressing my kid nice. Most of my friends in my circle are the same way, and a lot of shop at the same retailers online buying similar stuff. My inlaws are from up north and don't get it at all. They can't fathom why I wouldn't just put him in some cheap stuff from Walmart and call it a day, they also hate all his smocked stuff but I couldn't give a shit. I dress him how I want and think he looks like a handsome little boy, not a mini-man.

Edited June 9, 2019 by LillyP
spelling

[SassyPants]

I am old, have grown kids, and 1 recently turned 5 YO GD. Dressing up kids lasts about 4 maybe 5 years, tops. Once the kids get a mind or style of their own, mom’s hobby flies out the window, unless you’re the parent that wants their kid to be miserable. So enjoy dressing the, up when they’re little- my only thought on clothing is that it’s clean and matches venue. 

[Ticklish]

My kids wear mostly cheaper clothes- Target, Carter's, even the dreaded Walmart (since that's what we have in our small town). I used to spend more on their clothes and shop more online, but then my kids reached an age where they were more likely to wear out or stain their clothing. They also became more opinionated about what they will wear. My oldest will not wear dresses unless it's a special occasion, and both began to request we purchase the character shirts because that's what they liked. They're also both very slender and difficult to find clothes that fit correctly so shopping online became very difficult. They may not dress how I would ideally want them to, but they're happy and comfortable, picking out clothes isn't a battle every day, and I don't spend nearly as much as I used to on clothes for them (which frees up a bit of money to put towards activities they're now involved in). I have a couple of friends who pick what they want when both my kids have outgrown it and then we donate the rest. I've seen some $5 shirts from Target make it through 4 kids between my own and my friends. 

Bottom line for me is, if the kid is happy wearing it, then I don't really care what brand it is or what it cost.