Ask an Ex Fundie (VF style)

[lilith]

When you encountered things like BRADRICK! calling you “girl” or Kelly calling him “sir” (both so wtf), did you think it was strange, even within the culture, or was it normal or strength to be respected? Would your father and brothers have found it weird, something to aspire to or just business as usual?

Do you have any impressions of Jasmine Bauchman you’d like to share? She seems like another with so much wasted potential.

And do you know what the community thinks of where the Phillips kids are? The lack of fundie modesty in the girls, living independent lives while Dougie gads about Europe, none of the girls married..... Does the community view the Phillips marriage as over?

[Monstrous Black Sheep]

7 hours ago, SrMaryEloquentia said:

Thank you so much for your insights!

Actually, modest fashion bloggers were my gateway fundies… Do you feel that clothing was / is an important part of VF ideology? Was clothing important to you on your way out? How do you dress now, or do you feel that‘s not important?

 

Clothing was VERY important. There was a borderline obsession with it. (Which is hilarious because fundie fashion is notoriously frumpy and hideous.)

There was one point when I was starting to wake up that I tried to wear a "porn kills love" tshirt to our state homeschool conference. I was strongly discouraged from wearing it because "we don't want to offend people." I wish I'd worn it anyway.

I remember the first time I wore pants as I began to leave patriarchy. I felt almost naked and exposed, but I also felt like it was normal. It felt good.

Clothing has definitely been a big thing for me as I've left patriarchy. I dye my hair green, I wear shorts and mini skirts and swimsuits. Someday I'll get up the nerve to buy a bikini. I have so much shame attached to my body and my sexuality (that's a whole nother thread... sexuality in patriarchy is a traumatic thing).

But now I wear skinny jeans and crop tops and a nose ring and all the things that were frowned upon and heads shaken over when I was growing up. It's awesome.

7 hours ago, lilith said:

When you encountered things like BRADRICK! calling you “girl” or Kelly calling him “sir” (both so wtf), did you think it was strange, even within the culture, or was it normal or strength to be respected? Would your father and brothers have found it weird, something to aspire to or just business as usual?

Do you have any impressions of Jasmine Bauchman you’d like to share? She seems like another with so much wasted potential.

And do you know what the community thinks of where the Phillips kids are? The lack of fundie modesty in the girls, living independent lives while Dougie gads about Europe, none of the girls married..... Does the community view the Phillips marriage as over?

I remember loving being called "girl" because Peter was so manly, masculine, so perfect- VF-ideal-of-manhood and I craved that. He was definitely seen as something to be revered. All the Bradricks were.

The "sir" thing was unusual (I don't remember anyone else ever calling their husband that in all of my experience) but I didn't think it was a bad thing. It was biblical after all! Vision Forum loved quoting "And Sarah called her husband lord" from the Old Testament.

I never knew or met Jasmine. From what I've seen of her, she's rejected patriarchy and seems healthy and happy. I'm very glad for her.

I don't know what VF fans think of Phillips now. I don't have a lot of contact with folks who are still loyal. The few I do know tend to be "it's none of our business" and dismissing of everything, saying "he had a lot of good things to say. We were blessed by his materials. Here, you should read this Gothard book!"

[Howl]

13 hours ago, Monstrous Black Sheep said:

When they lived in San Antonio, Kelly was miserable (very depressed, isolated, ripped away from her community in N. Carolina).

This is so sad.  It must have been an utterly miserable situation, after all it was hyped up to be -- "you'll be happy because Godly marriage."  Then dealing with the reality of what it was like to be married to an arrogant and insensitive clod like Bradrick!. 

Frankly, if she was depressed and miserable as a new bride, it must have all been bad -- communication, sex, gender role definitions, subservience, all of it.  Just awful.  I truly hope Kelly is much happier in her 2nd marriage.  I truly hope also that they are using birth control of some type. 

[The Mother Dust]

As someone who grew up (almost) completely secular, escapee stories greatly interest me.  I consider all of you heroes in your own right.  Do you have plans to continue your education?   In a formal way I mean, college, certifications, etc?

Edited April 19, 2019 by The Mother Dust

[Lisafer]

@Monstrous Black Sheep I think this will be the year where I finally get enough nerve to at least buy a two-piece swimsuit! Ten years since I left home and I still wear shorts over a one-piece suit!

I enjoy your posts, they're very interesting. My parents used some VF materials, but didn't buy the full VF package, so to speak, and the church we went to was not affiliated in any way with Dougie. Was there a culture of looking down on IBLP, Baptists, etc. as they didn't have "the whole truth?" I know in the Calvinist denomination I grew up in, IBLP would have been seen as "less than." The more Reformed a person was, the more revered they were. 

[DangerNoodle]

14 hours ago, Monstrous Black Sheep said:

When they moved back to NC, the only notable thing I remember was that she addressed Peter as "Sir" a lot.

Fucking gross. 

Thanks so much for sharing everything. It is endless interesting. 

[Monstrous Black Sheep]

1 hour ago, The Mother Dust said:

Do you have plans to continue your education?   In a formal way I mean, college, certifications, etc?

My family bought into the Botkin's rhetoric: "We don't need grades or graduation or diplomas because we, unlike the world,  never stop learning!"
So I didn't even get my diploma until this year.

I very well may pursue college certification for my chosen career path. I'm not sure yet. I'm not at all against it, but I also don't think it's a necessity if one has a career that doesn't require it.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lisafer said:

@Monstrous Black Sheep I think this will be the year where I finally get enough nerve to at least buy a two-piece swimsuit! Ten years since I left home and I still wear shorts over a one-piece suit! 

I enjoy your posts, they're very interesting. My parents used some VF materials, but didn't buy the full VF package, so to speak, and the church we went to was not affiliated in any way with Dougie. Was there a culture of looking down on IBLP, Baptists, etc. as they didn't have "the whole truth?" I know in the Calvinist denomination I grew up in, IBLP would have been seen as "less than." The more Reformed a person was, the more revered they were.  

I wear the "shorts over a one piece" too, and even that was risque for me. But we'll get there.

I don't remember if there was a stigma against non-VF fundies, because we didn't associate with people who weren't part of VF. I know there was a lot of scorn for homeschoolers who did stuff like allowed their kids to do sports or families who (gasp) DIDN'T homeschool.

[DangerNoodle]

40 minutes ago, Monstrous Black Sheep said:

I very well may pursue college certification for my chosen career path.

I think you should even if it's not for your career. Just for personal enrichment.  You could take something that you are interested in but you were never allowed to study before. Like astronomy or anthropology or women's studies. You might be able to get the Pell Grant. Probably be fun. 

[Leftitinmysnood]

Another vote for taking some college courses, if time permits. We spent my teen years in fundiedom, but I was expected to go to college and did attend a secular college. I'm very appreciative of what I learned there, both educationally, and socially.

Now, for me the modest swimwear was the first to go. I haven't worn a one piece for over a decade. It's always been seen as a sign of my rebelliousness. My clothing always was (well, that and being smarter than a lot of the church dads). Perhaps that's why I understand all the speculation about the Duggar girls every time they wear pants in public. I was punished for doing that very thing. It's like when your parents change the rules for your little brother.

[Closed Womb]

@Monstrous Black Sheep, thank you for answering questions.  

I understand that you were not brought into the “adult” group, since you were still living at home, etc, but it seems like you understood that you were an adult.  When did you first feel like you were accountable for your own actions?  

 

[ViolaSebastian]

 

17 hours ago, Monstrous Black Sheep said:

 When they moved back to NC, the only notable thing I remember was that she addressed Peter as "Sir" a lot. 

What in the world...I just find this so, so messed up. Outside of a consensual agreement to have that kind of relationship, I find it so incredibly messed up that a partner would routinely address the other as "sir." WTF. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

Full admission. Out of all the fundie on fj that have gone silent, I am INSANELY curious about Kelly. Like if I could choose one person to receive an update on, it would be her. I never followed her in VF days. I had no idea who she was until Only a few years ago. But from what I’ve read, I’m just so curious to know how things are going for her now that she’s divorced and remarried. I may never know and that’s ok. Because she doesn’t have to tell the world any of her business. But damn I’d love to know. 

[BachelorToTheRapture]

What has been the biggest surprise/hardest adjustment for you in the outside world?

Is there a part of you that misses the sureness that you had the truth and were doing what's right? I was basically fundie catholic and sometimes I miss the feelings I had when I was probably 13 and under that I was going to go to heaven and had happiness waiting for me and knew exactly what was right. 

[lilith]

6 hours ago, Monstrous Black Sheep said:

 

I remember loving being called "girl" because Peter was so manly, masculine, so perfect- VF-ideal-of-manhood and I craved that. He was definitely seen as something to be revered. All the Bradricks were.

 

That man must have some AMAZING charisma, because he’s just not physically attractive and he was even more awkward looking when he was younger. But I remember Deanna Coghlan saying something similar about being drawn to him.

[Monstrous Black Sheep]

4 hours ago, Closed Womb said:

@Monstrous Black Sheep, thank you for answering questions.  

I understand that you were not brought into the “adult” group, since you were still living at home, etc, but it seems like you understood that you were an adult.  When did you first feel like you were accountable for your own actions?  

 

Part of me was always rebellious; the same part of me that recoiled in anger at stay-at-home-daughter books. I was the rebel, even though I did it passively; I talked to fundie boys on the internet and resisted the rules that said I had to forward my chat logs to others (either friends or parents) for "accountability." I always resented my parents and fundie friends talking over my head about me (something that has never stopped happening).

So to some extent I always held onto a shred of control. It wasn't until at 22 I left home for a 'visit' and stayed longer than planned that I realized that I was an adult who could make the choice to just... not go back.

I still feel very much like a child without the freedom of choice in a lot of areas. But I'm slowly taking back power. I'm slowly getting out. The talons of patriarchy go deep.

[Black Aliss]

5 hours ago, ViolaSebastian said:

 

What in the world...I just find this so, so messed up. Outside of a consensual agreement to have that kind of relationship, I find it so incredibly messed up that a partner would routinely address the other as "sir." WTF. 

So, are you saying what I thought immediately? That's not plain vanilla patriarchy, that's a dom-sub thing.

[SecularMusic]

Thank you so much for your post. I'm also a former fundie and could relate to what you wrote about music. Our pastor thought secular music was from the devil.

Once he had an altar call where the teens were supposed to bring our rock albums so he could destroy them. I had a Bon Jovi CD that I kept hidden under my mattress and didn't bring it. As people were walking up to the altar, our pastor said that the Holy Spirit was telling him that someone was holding onto their secular music and God was going to curse them like he had cursed disobedient people in the bible.

My wedding day was one is the most stressful, disappointing days of my life, largely because of the rules we had to follow. We weren't allowed to play any secular music at the reception and that's something my husband and I both regret to this day.

 

[Monstrous Black Sheep]

STORY TIME
2009 (I think?) was an interesting year. It was the year my family went to a private conference in Georgia called the Crossroads Conference where the Botkin family were the sole speakers. After that my parents were planning on going to the annual marriage retreat at Scott Brown's barn, but instead we detoured to a Super Secret Debriefing Conference for Men Only (also in Georgia), where the fathers and older sons of fundie families were given Top Secret Private Information about the coming economic collapse.

We did have a recession that year. Okay. Granted. But we were preparing for a complete collapse. Like, Armageddon proportions. My sheltered childhood was propelled into terror and fear, sifting through my belongings and trying to choose what was most important to me since everything else was going to be destroyed at any time. We packed up our belongings in preparation for moving to New Zealand (the Promised Land, Safe from All Worldly Disasters).

Then... nothing happened. We unpacked. We packed again. We stockpiled. We lived in fear. We tried to move to the country. We thought about moving to Idaho and living underground.

I remember my dad being upset when my first (illicit) boyfriend and I didn't want to live on a hypothetical family compound when we hypothetically got married.
 

There's the multigenerational vision, folks.

[AnnaSofia]

Hiya & welcome

On 4/16/2019 at 10:58 PM, Monstrous Black Sheep said:

I wore headcoverings

Were head coverings common in VF circles, or was that something specific to your family?

[Monstrous Black Sheep]

1 minute ago, AnnaSofia said:

Hiya & welcome

Were head coverings common in VF circles, or was that something specific to your family? 

It depended on the family. My parents actually weren't in support of it-- I picked up the practice when I was a hardcore patriarchalist on my own. 
I wouldn't say it was common in *VF* circles specifically, but it wasn't uncommon in patriarchy.

[DangerNoodle]

6 hours ago, Monstrous Black Sheep said:

Then... nothing happened. We unpacked. We packed again. We stockpiled. We lived in fear. We tried to move to the country. We thought about moving to Idaho and living underground.

What do your parents have to say about this stuff now that they can reflect a decade later? What kind of economic collapse was going to destroy the things you already had? What were you going to do underground?  

Sorry for so many questions... How are your siblings doing today? 

[nickelodeon]

12 hours ago, Monstrous Black Sheep said:

We did have a recession that year. Okay. Granted. But we were preparing for a complete collapse. Like, Armageddon proportions. My sheltered childhood was propelled into terror and fear, sifting through my belongings and trying to choose what was most important to me since everything else was going to be destroyed at any time. We packed up our belongings in preparation for moving to New Zealand (the Promised Land, Safe from All Worldly Disasters).

Then... nothing happened. We unpacked. We packed again. We stockpiled. We lived in fear. We tried to move to the country. We thought about moving to Idaho and living underground.

I remember my dad being upset when my first (illicit) boyfriend and I didn't want to live on a hypothetical family compound when we hypothetically got married.

I’ve commented in recent Botkin threads that they really seem to be flirting with the off grid prepper scene. From this story it sounds like they’ve always been invested in that stuff.

eta: See this completely bananas lecture from the Botkinettes

Edited April 20, 2019 by nickelodeon

[Lisafer]

14 hours ago, Black Aliss said:

So, are you saying what I thought immediately? That's not plain vanilla patriarchy, that's a dom-sub thing.

In some patriarchal circles, it would be seen as extra sooper dooper Godly for the wife to call her husband "sir" as a sign of respect for his leadership status. Perhaps Black Sheep can speak more specifically to Peter and Kelly's motivation, but my first guess would be that it's a way of showing off how Godly Kelly was. That poor woman was always being "shown off" to the less-holy Christians, IMO.

[smittykins]

ISTR DPIAT saying “Are you willing to call your husband ‘Lord’?”

[The Mother Dust]

On 4/19/2019 at 4:33 PM, DangerNoodle said:

I think you should even if it's not for your career. Just for personal enrichment.  You could take something that you are interested in but you were never allowed to study before. Like astronomy or anthropology or women's studies. You might be able to get the Pell Grant. Probably be fun. 

 

On 4/19/2019 at 3:50 PM, Monstrous Black Sheep said:

My family bought into the Botkin's rhetoric: "We don't need grades or graduation or diplomas because we, unlike the world,  never stop learning!"
So I didn't even get my diploma until this year.

I very well may pursue college certification for my chosen career path. I'm not sure yet. I'm not at all against it, but I also don't think it's a necessity if one has a career that doesn't require it.
 

@Monstrous Black Sheep Congrats on getting your diploma.  I agree that college isn't necessary for everyone.  However I also agree with @DangerNoodles suggestion about possibly exploring it just for personal enrichment.  Depending on the rules of your state, you might even be able to audit some classes at your local community college for free.  Or the administration might be willing to let you do that if you approach them with your story.  If you ask in a polite way, I don't think it would hurt anything, even if they say no.  I would also strongly encourage you to consider getting your associates degree.  Those only take 2 years, and you could probably get that pretty cheap at your local community college too.  It will open up so much more opportunities for you than a hs diploma will.   Those are also pretty easy to transfer towards a bachelors degree too, if you ever decide to do that down the road.   Thank you for sharing your story here. 
P.S. I have a fascination with the Botkins, so any other tea you could spill about them, I would lap up. lol .  I find it interesting that you said Elizabeth seems to be the most personable one.