JinJer 48: California Love

[TheMustardCardigan]

I don't have kids so I don't have a dog in this fight, but I'll put my thoughts in.

It's interesting to see the proposition that TV and video games like Fortnite are OK, but phones are where the line should be drawn...  just because when I was growing up, it was before the age smartphones and tablets but video games and television were definitely a big thing and adults definitely complained that it was "melting kids' brains" or whatever. I was born in the early 90s. Some really popular and technologically-trailblazing gaming consoles hit the market like Nintendo 64. This was in the age before online gaming, so you were playing by yourself unless you had friends come over. The 90s also saw the rise of channels dedicated to kid shows only really taking off. Nickelodeon hit its stride as a kids' programming channel with cartoons like Rugrats and Disney Channel went to basic cable in the 90s. It was possible to watch cartoons all day, and not necessarily shows like Sesame Street that taught you your ABCs. I don't think the previous generation really had that level of broad access to kid-centered programs. And I remember tons of people from the older generation saying this was all horrible for kids and their development would be totally ruined and there were plenty of news articles published about how the sky was falling because of video games too.

I'm not saying all toddlers should have an iPad glued to their hands at all times. Outside time, reading, and imaginative play with toys are all important things. But I think all this just shows the development of attitudes and norms over time as technology becomes more important and ubiquitous in our society. People are saying about smart phones and kids today what they said about video games and kids twenty or thirty years ago.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

There is a difference, IMO, kids who get screen time for a few hours a day scattered through out the day and kids like my 7 yr old niece who's only source of entertainment and interaction is via a screen, because her parents are too Goddamn lazy to pay attention to her. She watches TV, plays on a phone or iPad 8 to 10 hours a day on non school days, unless she is with my sister, myself or my dad & step mom.  My sisters kids, I think get a nice balance of screen time and real social play time/adult interaction. It sucks I think for parents, my sister was trying to justify to me why her son spent 3 days on his Ipad this past winter when he had the flu. I was like sis stop it, you don't have to explain to me why your SICK KID laid around playing on his computer when it was 15 below outside. Parents shouldn't have to justify situations like this. 

My kids are in that gap of no iPads/small computers yet and having them they were born in late 97 and 2000 so they were early elementary when these products started to come out, so they didn't get any time on iPads as toddlers because they didn't have them, but they had gameboys and things like that starting about kindergarten. 

[BernRul]

34 minutes ago, TheMustardCardigan said:

I don't have kids so I don't have a dog in this fight, but I'll put my thoughts in.

It's interesting to see the proposition that TV and video games like Fortnite are OK, but phones are where the line should be drawn...  just because when I was growing up, it was before the age smartphones and tablets but video games and television were definitely a big thing and adults definitely complained that it was "melting kids' brains" or whatever. I was born in the early 90s. Some really popular and technologically-trailblazing gaming consoles hit the market like Nintendo 64. This was in the age before online gaming, so you were playing by yourself unless you had friends come over. The 90s also saw the rise of channels dedicated to kid shows only really taking off. Nickelodeon hit its stride as a kids' programming channel with cartoons like Rugrats and Disney Channel went to basic cable in the 90s. It was possible to watch cartoons all day, and not necessarily shows like Sesame Street that taught you your ABCs. I don't think the previous generation really had that level of broad access to kid-centered programs. And I remember tons of people from the older generation saying this was all horrible for kids and their development would be totally ruined and there were plenty of news articles published about how the sky was falling because of video games too.

I'm not saying all toddlers should have an iPad glued to their hands at all times. Outside time, reading, and imaginative play with toys are all important things. But I think all this just shows the development of attitudes and norms over time as technology becomes more important and ubiquitous in our society. People are saying about smart phones and kids today what they said about video games and kids twenty or thirty years ago.

Since I'm the one who brought up Fortnite I'll address this. The "line" for me is that research hasn't backed up the fear of video games. So far, it has for unlimited phone time. Again, so far, because the research is new. Video games like Fortnite and Minecraft are played by older children anyway, whereas phones are handed to literal babies.

But I imagine that putting children in front of any technology for extended periods of time-- be it TVs, computer games, or iPhones-- is damaging. Those are all passive activities. Having a young child be too passive for too long is not good, because young children need to interact with the world to learn and develop.

Interestingly, reading is active. The mind is constantly working.

But either way, the key is age appropriateness, balance and reasonable time spent on it, and supervision. A lot of parents don't  do any of that, and it has potentially harmful effects of young developing brains. 

Like having a 2 year old watch a 2 minute video every now and then isn't a big deal. Having a 10 year old play games for 20 minutes isn't either. Having them on it all day, or any time they are in the car or in public because God forbid they aren't ever being stimulated externally is.

It's that this new technology is constant, and is replacing self control skills and the ability to interact with the wider world for some parents who give it to their kids all the time. If parents have a good balance or age appropriate time with it, it's likely fine.

[Pretzel]

@VelociRapture I don't understand how it is a safety issue? I've changed countless diapers in my life and never needed a phone to distract the kiddo, so I am asking out of curiosity what kind of changing table arrangement you have? I dunno about the kind of table you use, but you could buy a cheap-o padded changing mat off amazon and put that one on the floor to change your daughter and future kiddo's diaper.

 

[VelociRapture]

14 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

@VelociRapture I don't understand how it is a safety issue? I've changed countless diapers in my life and never needed a phone to distract the kiddo, so I am asking out of curiosity what kind of changing table arrangement you have? I dunno about the kind of table you use, but you could buy a cheap-o padded changing mat off amazon and put that one on the floor to change your daughter and future kiddo's diaper.

 

The changing table was on top of her dresser. She would squirm so much she almost fell several times - even the strap on the mat to buckle her in wouldn’t work. We tried changing her on the floor instead, but she still wouldn’t lay still. It would take forever to finish a diaper change and we’d both be completely miserable by the time it was over. A short Daniel clip (a minute or less) fixed that problem. I know it’s not ideal, but she was just one of those kids who would not stay still for changes and this was the best compromise I could come up with. She doesn’t get a clip during diaper changes now that she’s trying to sit on the potty.  

[Baxter]

My son is three and he watches some shows on our TV. We only let him watch the tablet at this point when we are traveling. What we notice with the tablet is that it seems to allow him to completely ignore everything around himself in a way that the TV doesn't which is something my husband and I don't want, except when we are on an airplane, lol. 

My problem with giving kids tablets or phones when you go out to eat is that it doesn't teach kids to be part of the conversation and to interact with others. Other diversions like coloring etc don't make interaction difficult like that. Now I guess there can be situations where a person just really needs a break and I can understand that. But I doubt that's what most people are doing with their kids when they are at a restaurant. I expect that it is something they do every time. 

[just_ordinary]

We just spent some time with my in-laws and had a serious discussion (just husband and I) about how much our nephews are allowed to be on the tv/tablet/phone. And in which situations. One is a toddler, the other one is in elementary school. Thankfully we are on the same boat regarding how we want to try to handle screen time with our daughter when the time comes. Obviously a younger child will be exposed earlier thanks to older siblings, obviously our children will grow up in a world where those technologies are the new normal (like having a fridge). They will use them without questioning it. They will have to use them at school and at work. We are not blind to this. But we still don’t want to start her too early. 

A point that really got us thinking is how fast adults are willing to hand over a phone if the child is acting up- even when the tantrum isn’t related to screen time. I don’t think it’s a problem if you pick your battles and try to get another 15minutes in the restaurant without having your child screaming bloody murder. But distracting the child every goddamn time cannot be the solution either. We know how uncomfortable and stressing it can be, the judgemental looks, your own nerves but this is something we are willing to try to endure. That’s why I always try to give parents in those situations a supportive and understanding smile. They are stressing enough and mustn’t think they need to silence their child for my sake if they would rather fight this through. Hopefully it’s not during a long flight though ?

It also made us think hard about our own usage. How is she supposed to learn that being on the smart phone all the time isn’t the way it’s supposed to be if she sees us using it all the time. We try to not have it in sight while she is awake so we hopefully have a little bit more time before she discovers the magic of it (but it already started. Thankfully as soon as she gets it it’s not interesting anymore because it’s turned off).

[VelociRapture]

15 hours ago, AtlanticTug said:

Yes, Jinger is the human equivalent of tofu. She tastes like nothing on her own but can be made to absorb virtually any flavor.

HA! I just saw the same comment from VelociRapture. 

I’m not positive, but I think two FJers independently saying the same thing makes it a verifiable fact. ?

And since we’re comparing Duggars to food...

Jeremy: He would obviously be the biggest plate of spaghetti and meatballs, practically smothered in sauce and Parmesan, of all time. You’re mouth would water just looking at it, but then you’d have to throw something out, you’d see the discarded Olive Garden containers, and you’d lose your appetite. 

Jill: She’d be a PBJ Quesadilla*. It tries so hard to be something you’ll like and you kind of want to cheer for it, but it’s just so wrong that you can’t. Bonus points for the symbolism of something from the US trying to wrap itself in a tortilla to look like it’s from Central America. 

Derick: Picture a food you like a lot. Not your favorite, but one of them. Now picture you found that food covered in dust and mold behind your couch after it rolled off your plate and got lost back there a few weeks ago. That’s Derick.

JB: BBQ Tunafish sandwich. I don’t think this needs explaining. 

Michelle: Tater-tot casserole. See above.

Joe and Kendra: grilled cheese - specifically made with white bread and Kraft American cheese. Nothing fancy, but not outright distasteful. 

Lauren: A sugar and gluten free cupcake. It looks nice enough, but is a bit bland and disappointing. 

Josiah: A piece of birthday cake with a big ass candle. It’s flashy and fun and you’re super excited about it. But once the candle is blown out you see the decorating is badly done, the wrong name was written on the cake, and it just tastes like bitter disappointment.

Jana: A cookie. You think it’s a delicious chocolate chip cookie, but then you bite into it and realize you aren’t wearing your glasses and it’s actually an oatmeal raisin cookie. You’re disappointed because you really wanted that chocolate, but you kind of feel like you have to finish eating it because you already took a bite.

John and Abbie: Those little bags of peanuts they no longer hand out on airplanes because allergies are a thing. Did you know he flies planes?! Because he does.

Smuggar: A turd sandwich. There is nothing appealing about it and you really just want it to go away.

Anna: Is there an abortion related joke we can make for her? Because that’s all she seems to care about other than trying to make Josh acceptable to society again. 

Ben: A bucket of KFC chicken. It’s trying to pass itself off as soul food, but it’s sadly missing all the soul. 

Jessa: A Lean Cuisine meal. Get it?! Because she hates cooking?! I crack myself up. 

Joy: One of those shake things she was shilling recently. At first glance it doesn’t seem so bad, but the more you see of it the less you like it. 

Austin: Grilled squirrel with a side of Johnnycakes, all cooked over a camp fire. Cause he’s super manly or something. I honestly just couldn’t think of anything for him and went full pioneer because of the Family Camp.

Everyone else: Pickles. They kind of all look alike and you lose track of which one is which. Except Josie. She’s clearly be a tiny Tater-Tot Casserole like her mom because she’s Michelle’s special little buddy.

*True story, I know someone who tried to make this once. In theory it sounded great, but it was not. We agreed not to speak of it again. 

[Bobology]

3 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

*This is actually my mom’s all time favorite piece of parenting advice to give new parents - that you’ll go into parenting with all sorts of ideas about what type of parent you’ll be and you will fail at managing that ideal every single day. It’s normal and it’s ok. Just do your best with your specific circumstances and your kids will likely turn out ok anyways.

Please thank your mother for me. I retired to take care of grandspawn #1 and as a former educator had all sorts of plans for perfect grandparenting. My plans lasted about 3.7 seconds and 5 years later I still harbor a tiny bit of guilt. Now with grandspawn #2 here I'm pretty sure I have broken all my self-imposed and planned 'rules' for wonderful grandparenting. I'll just say, I keep them alive and out of childcare facilities... that may be enough. And in case anyone is curious, my number one rule was to have no television. HA HA HA HA

[Melissa1977]

On the topic of Jinger praising her parents, I'm going to speculate that she's been in a retreat or doing some activity that included a few kool-aid toasts. Maybe her sudden friendship with the Roloffs is reinforcing her fundiness. 

While I don't think Jeremy is willing to have a large family, a new baby is probably coming soon. And 2 little kids can be overwhelming, especially if the meek wife has to cover her husband needs first.

[just_ordinary]

1 minute ago, Melissa1977 said:

On the topic of Jinger praising her parents, I'm going to speculate that she's been in a retreat or doing some activity that included a few kool-aid toasts. Maybe her sudden friendship with the Roloffs is reinforcing her fundiness. 

While I don't think Jeremy is willing to have a large family, a new baby is probably coming soon. And 2 little kids can be overwhelming, especially if the meek wife has to cover her husband needs first.

Interesting. I had a very opposite idea. I thought that Jeremy is leading them unto a different way. Still fundie but noticeably different than the Duggar’s way of life. This could have let to some differences between the families. The post could smooth over that a bit.

Another theory I had is, that Jinger has a hard time adjusting to Jeremy‘s rules/ isn’t happy to deviate from her parents teachings and uses this to make him rethink.

And the last, highly speculative hunch: did anyone else notice how much emphasis the post put on JB and M‘s marriage? Trouble in paradise? Reminding Jeremy how a godly marriage is supposed to be? 

[SorenaJ]

Speaking of potties, I have a question. I don’t have any kids yet, so I really don’t know anything. I saw you can get these training seats to attach to the toilets with a ladder/steps and handle so the toddler could sit on the smaller toddler seat on the toilet? In my limited understanding, would they not be preferable to potties? Or would the toddlers still be scared of falling into the toilet? Why are potties handy? 

[VelociRapture]

30 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

Speaking of potties, I have a question. I don’t have any kids yet, so I really don’t know anything. I saw you can get these training seats to attach to the toilets with a ladder/steps and handle so the toddler could sit on the smaller toddler seat on the toilet? In my limited understanding, would they not be preferable to potties? Or would the toddlers still be scared of falling into the toilet? Why are potties handy? 

I think it just really depends on the child. Some kids are terrified of the toilet and end up using a potty as a result. Other kids want nothing to do with a potty because they’re a big kid and want to use the toilet instead, so they end up liking the toilet inserts. 

Husband and I have both because we weren’t sure what our daughter would prefer. The toilet insert is in our small half bath downstairs and the potty is in the roomy full bath upstairs. I figured it worked well that way because she’d be able to easily access the potty during the night once we reach that point, but we’re hoping to move this year so who knows what the bathroom situation will be like now. I personally see the appeal of both, though I do like the insert more as cleanup is much easier. 

[AtlanticTug]

2 hours ago, Baxter said:

My problem with giving kids tablets or phones when you go out to eat is that it doesn't teach kids to be part of the conversation and to interact with others. Other diversions like coloring etc don't make interaction difficult like that. Now I guess there can be situations where a person just really needs a break and I can understand that. But I doubt that's what most people are doing with their kids when they are at a restaurant. I expect that it is something they do every time. 

To this I would say, it really depends. I usually bring a table to a restaurant for my son who is 3.5. He doesn't get it instantly but if we are having a long meal or the service is super slow, I can only reasonably expect him to be ok in his seat for that long. So if we're all done eating but my husband wants to finish his beer or my mother in law is ordering a tea or coffee after dessert, I think that's fair game. He's no longer eating at that point anyway.

I would expect more of older kids obviously.

[Baxter]

3 minutes ago, AtlanticTug said:

To this I would say, it really depends. I usually bring a table to a restaurant for my son who is 3.5. He doesn't get it instantly but if we are having a long meal or the service is super slow, I can only reasonably expect him to be ok in his seat for that long. So if we're all done eating but my husband wants to finish his beer or my mother in law is ordering a tea or coffee after dessert, I think that's fair game. He's no longer eating at that point anyway.

I would expect more of older kids obviously.

 Yes I agree. It really depends and sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do when you are a parent, lol. But what I often see is that parents sit down at the table, hand the kids the tablet or phone and they use it the entire meal including while they are eating. This goes for both younger kids and older kids who should be able to sit quietly longer with some other sort of activity that doesn't allow them to cut themselves off from the rest of the table. 

[Gnomewizard]

1 hour ago, Bobology said:

And in case anyone is curious, my number one rule was to have no television. HA HA HA HA

I am curious, was the no TV rule because you all did not own or watch a TV or was it because you did not want the grandbaby watching TV?

Full disclosure we do not own a TV, or watch shows on any devices. We all have smart phones, but do not have games installed. Not because of any holier than thou reasoning, it is just not our thing. 

[SilverBeach]

1 hour ago, Gnomewizard said:

Full disclosure we do not own a TV, or watch shows on any devices.

I would die.

[takers401]

3 hours ago, SorenaJ said:

Speaking of potties, I have a question. I don’t have any kids yet, so I really don’t know anything. I saw you can get these training seats to attach to the toilets with a ladder/steps and handle so the toddler could sit on the smaller toddler seat on the toilet? In my limited understanding, would they not be preferable to potties? Or would the toddlers still be scared of falling into the toilet? Why are potties handy? 

I have both a potty chair that sits on the ground and a step stool that sits in front of the toilet. The potty chair is the easiest for my kids to use. It's close to the ground,so no falling off, the seat itself is small enough so there's no falling through, and there was no danger of early flushing which freaked my kids out for a while. I thought about getting that step ladder/potty chair combo but it looks so bulky that I didn't want to have to move it every time an adult wanted to use the bathroom. My end game is the small step stool that sits in front of the toilet so that both kids can use the potty without needing Mom (until it's time to wipe, that is). I very much dislike the independence of three year olds who demand to dump their own potty container in the big toilet. There's not enough bleach in the world to clean that up!

[TheMustardCardigan]

3 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

While I don't think Jeremy is willing to have a large family, a new baby is probably coming soon. And 2 little kids can be overwhelming, especially if the meek wife has to cover her husband needs first.

I could see Jinger and Jeremy having a new baby fairly soon too. I think they will have a relatively small family by fundie standards (my bet is 4 kids). That being said, I don't think these four kids will be spread out over a 20 year time frame. I think they'll have another soon, then wait a few years, then have two more that will be close in age. 

[Bobology]

2 hours ago, Gnomewizard said:

4 hours ago, Bobology said:

And in case anyone is curious, my number one rule was to have no television. HA HA HA HA

I am curious, was the no TV rule because you all did not own or watch a TV or was it because you did not want the grandbaby watching TV?

Full disclosure we do not own a TV, or watch shows on any devices. We all have smart phones, but do not have games installed. Not because of any holier than thou reasoning, it is just not our thing.

I didn't want him watching TV on my watch. I got over it real fast.

 

[Silas]

I know my situation is a bit different but my son has autism (severe end of the spectrum - for lack of a better term) and his tablet has changed our lives. He's not nonverbal but he only has labels and with Cough Drop he can communicate so much better. AAC devices are game changers for people with special needs. Obviously this doesn't apply to most kids but the looks we get when we're out in public and my son is "glued" to his tablet could kill. It's frustrating. He also wears noise canceling headphones and most people assume they're normal headphones and that he's just glued to some game/video.

And you know what? Sometimes he is! Ha! He doesn't only use his tablet for his "voice" but in public places when sensory input is overwhelming a youtube video or game can be the difference between us actually getting to go out or stay at home. Or me getting to grocery shop. It is the only way we can get out sometimes and you know what? We deserve the chance to get out.  So I'm sure to bystanders we look like horribly negligent parents that allows their child to stare at screen while we eat as a family.

Obviously I know 99.9% of the population would understand if they knew our circumstances and of course no one of FJ has said anything negative but I just felt the need to put that out there.  The amount of people in public that are so quick to judge when they know nothing about someone else's circumstances depresses me and it adds even more stress to public outings.  It's just hard, y'all. Life is hard. Of course I'm not suggesting every child should be glued to a screen 24/7 and screentime can be abused but there are exceptions to almost all rules - something parenting a special needs kid taught me quickly. ?

[HarleyQuinn]

Potties are gross. Just get the seat that sits on the regular toilet and a stool.  Lol

I didn't even entertain the thought of a pottie. I was eager to see my shit cleaning days go away.

[farmerannie]

35 minutes ago, HarleyQuinn said:

Potties are gross. Just get the seat that sits on the regular toilet and a stool.  Lol

I didn't even entertain the thought of a pottie. I was eager to see my shit cleaning days go away.

I 1000% agree. 

[Gnomewizard]

5 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

I would die.

Everyone is different. I am always amazed people have the time, but that is probably more a testament to my poor time management skills than anything else. I can barely stay on top of keeping the house clean! Tonight I went to vacuum and Gnome spouse and I ended up spending free time before dinner taking apart the vacuum. Then dinner, cleaning up the kitchen, shower, laundry and now wasting a few minutes online before I need to go to sleep. 

Good night!

[feministxtian]

3 hours ago, HarleyQuinn said:

Potties are gross. Just get the seat that sits on the regular toilet and a stool.  Lol

I didn't even entertain the thought of a pottie. I was eager to see my shit cleaning days go away.

nah dude I'm not training yo ass to use a potty seat then training yo ass to use a toilet. You learn to shit on the toilet from jump.