Chelsy and John Maxwell 7: Not as Beige as Maxhell - Yet

[ViolaSebastian]

4 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Chelsy didn’t even seem to plan for the possibility of a hospital birth. She said John packed her bag quickly and would have a bag packed ahead of time next time around. If you have big plans for a homebirth, I think you should also keep the backup plan in mind. So get a bag packed for the hospital. Know the exact route you need to take to that hospital. If they do things like that next time around, maybe she will feel more mentally prepared. Part of the trauma may have been the unknown. She probably hadn’t ever met any of the doctors and it’s possible she had never been to that hospital. Since she’s already experienced one hospital transfer, she may feel better about it if it happens again. 

Oh, don't get me wrong, they definitely made decisions that I would not have made and didn't mentally prepared themselves for the possibility that a transfer could happen, which all contributed to her perception of her birth as traumatic.

[Coconut Flan]

A 45 minute drive to the hospital (although she says John made it much faster) when the baby is almost delivered after three hours of pushing sounds bad enough for me and that was just the beginning.  I thought having to move from the birthing room to an operating room was as far as I wanted to go with a baby just about to be delivered.  Then we skipped the c-section.   Although trying a home delivery with a first baby 45 minutes from the hospital and pushing for three hours sounds like not the best idea any of them have had.  

[JermajestyDuggar]

7 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

A 45 minute drive to the hospital (although she says John made it much faster) when the baby is almost delivered after three hours of pushing sounds bad enough for me and that was just the beginning.  I thought having to move from the birthing room to an operating room was as far as I wanted to go with a baby just about to be delivered.  Then we skipped the c-section.   Although trying a home delivery with a first baby 45 minutes from the hospital and pushing for three hours sounds like not the best idea any of them have had.  

And she couldn’t help but push in the car. I know that feeling. I kept trying to NOT push and my body was like, “fuck you dude I wanna push.” Our bodies often have a mind of their own.

[usmcmom]

I had to go back and read part of it again. 

They went to Walmart after her water broke?!?

Twenty-eight years ago (so, yeah, it’s been a while.  Maybe things have changed?)  my doctor told me “If your water breaks at home, I want you at the hospital five minutes ago.” So, while she clearly was’t planning to go to a hospital, should she have been out running errands? Shouldn’t she have stayed home in case her labor progressed unusually fast? I mean, it does happen.  

I can see how Chelsy would call this birth traumatic. I can also see how it appears they did not plan for all possibilities.  I don’t know if it was from them being naive or if it was Chelsy’s fundie training that kicked in and had her convinced that the only good and righteous birth was a home birth and surely nothing was going to go wrong.  

There is an arrogance about childbirth in the fundie world, I think, and it endangers women and their babies.  

 

[Melissa1977]

40 minutes ago, usmcmom said:

Twenty-eight years ago (so, yeah, it’s been a while.  Maybe things have changed?)  my doctor told me “If your water breaks at home, I want you at the hospital five minutes ago.”

I have had 2 kids and both times I've been told that if the waters are clean, you try to relax and go to the hospital, but not in a rush. If waters are dirty, RUN! 

 

 

[Melissa1977]

4 hours ago, Bazinga said:

All in all, it was a typical birth story of first time moms. Rarely do I hear from a first time mom that everything went 100% smoothly. In fact, in my family alone, 3 out of 4 siblings/ sis-in laws ended with either a vacuum/forceps birth or c-section for their firsts. I am sorry it was so traumat

When I had my first baby all my friends were having episiotomies, vacuums etc and I was scared. My doctor told me that many (many, not all) of these circumstances were due to outdated medical methods. In 15 years, episiotomies and vacuums and even C-sections have been less and less used here, which makes me think he was right and other way was possible. Of course they are necessary sometimes, and save lives!!!! But a more natural birth approachment (in a hospital) makes births easier, including the first one.

 

3 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Chelsy didn’t even seem to plan for the possibility of a hospital birth. She said John packed her bag quickly and would have a bag packed ahead of time next time around. If you have big plans for a homebirth, I think you should also keep the backup plan in mind. So get a bag packed for the hospital. Know the exact route you need to take to that hospital. If they do things like that next time around, maybe she will feel more mentally prepared. Part of the trauma may have been the unknown. She probably hadn’t ever met any of the doctors and it’s possible she had never been to that hospital. Since she’s already experienced one hospital transfer, she may feel better about it if it happens again. 

While I understand her trauma, I think that not having an eventual hospital plan for emergencies is an evidence of her being a know-it-all Bontrager. And I am afraid her midwife is not very professional, because the first they ask is how far the nearest hospital is.

I wonder if Elissa and Anna Marie act the same way, but are luckier. Or maybe they actually have a plan B.

[Ozlsn]

4 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I think so many fundies have these extremely high and unattainable expectations for their first birth. They all seem to plan a perfect homebirth. It’s sad really. They are setting themselves up for disappointment. They are so godly and did everything right. How could god not give them a perfect homebirth?

When did homebirth become such a point of pride in fundy circles? Has it always been the case and now they're just more popular in the wider society now too? Is it a costs thing? 

4 hours ago, VVV said:

I am friends with a retired nurse (RN) who used to assist at homebirths; she said that they never accepted a first-time mom for a home birth. Proven pelvises only

The hospitals that offer a homebirth option here have "routine first pregnancy and birth" as a criteria to be accepted. It doesn't eliminate the risk of complications but it does make them less likely.

[meee]

I haven't read the birth story yet, but hang on. They are 45 minutes away from a hospital?! That's a horrible idea. I have friends who have had homebirths and they all live within ten minutes of a hospital and wouldn't try a homebirth if they lived any further away. Problems can turn serious in a matter of minutes.

[JermajestyDuggar]

5 hours ago, Ozlsn said:

When did homebirth become such a point of pride in fundy circles? Has it always been the case and now they're just more popular in the wider society now too? Is it a costs thing? 

The hospitals that offer a homebirth option here have "routine first pregnancy and birth" as a criteria to be accepted. It doesn't eliminate the risk of complications but it does make them less likely.

I’m going to guess her Amish background is also at play here. The Amish have been homebirthing since forever. I know it’s also a fundie thing. I think maybe that’s part of why it’s so strong for her. Both her fundie friends and her Amish friends put homebirthing on a pedestal. All three of her bontrager sisters in law did not birth at home. They were in birthing centers or a hospital. And all three of those women don’t have Amish backgrounds.

Edited June 12, 2019 by JermajestyDuggar

[SassyPants]

You hope and pray for the best and easiest delivery for mom and baby, and you absolutely, 100%, plan for the worst and most emergent delivery. Sounds as if CM only did the former. They are lucky that they had a positive outcome. They can thank educated people and excellent, professional care.

[Bazinga]

8 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

When I had my first baby all my friends were having episiotomies, vacuums etc and I was scared. My doctor told me that many (many, not all) of these circumstances were due to outdated medical methods. In 15 years, episiotomies and vacuums and even C-sections have been less and less used here, which makes me think he was right and other way was possible. Of course they are necessary sometimes, and save lives!!!! But a more natural birth approachment (in a hospital) makes births easier, including the first one.

I agree. The hospitals (different for different children), we all very natural birth friendly. I was offered a labor tub (couldn't birth in it though), a bouncy ball, freedom to roam around, etc. during labor. Then after birth, they encouraged 2 hours of skin-to-skin time before baths were given and mom was thoroughly cleaned up. I appreciated it all sooo much. But, my oldest is not very old. My sisters and sister-in-law's children are all under the age of 4, and as I mentioned in my OP, we all had interventions during our deliveries. So even though your doctor claims these are outdated procedures, they are still happening to first time deliviers in our hospitals A LOT. Now what the actually means and why that is happening is a whole different discussion.

[Bazinga]

Is it just her Amish up-bringing? I definitely don't doubt it wasn't a part of it,  but I'm just thinking of the Duggar girls here. Also, I pretty sure Anna Marie did have a home birth. I also know of some fairly popular instagrammars (not really "fundie" per-say, but still very conservative) that have all had home births. I've truly wondered this as well. Why do they demand a home birth so much? I mentioned just above that while my first delivery did not go as I would have hoped, with all the birth of my children, the hospitals were very naturally minded. I've heard some homebirthers say, "well I don't want the baby monitor strapped to me 24/7". I didn't have mine strapped to me the whole time. In fact, I was encouraged to take it off and walk around (until I had an epidural that is). I think hospitals recognize that women don't want to be cattle prodded into barren, sterile rooms, forced to deliver and then moved out. Many want to make it a comforting and enjoyable (ha!) experience.

Maybe our young fundies are only being told from their mothers what hospitals were like 30 + years ago? Maybe it is a money thing (though I do have one friend who is a part of a christian medi share, and she said her entire birth was paid for so.....). Or maybe they feel that they are more Godly giving birth at home with no pain medication (a la Eve)?

[JermajestyDuggar]

26 minutes ago, Bazinga said:

Is it just her Amish up-bringing? I definitely don't doubt it wasn't a part of it,  but I'm just thinking of the Duggar girls here. Also, I pretty sure Anna Marie did have a home birth. I also know of some fairly popular instagrammars (not really "fundie" per-say, but still very conservative) that have all had home births. I've truly wondered this as well. Why do they demand a home birth so much? I mentioned just above that while my first delivery did not go as I would have hoped, with all the birth of my children, the hospitals were very naturally minded. I've heard some homebirthers say, "well I don't want the baby monitor strapped to me 24/7". I didn't have mine strapped to me the whole time. In fact, I was encouraged to take it off and walk around (until I had an epidural that is). I think hospitals recognize that women don't want to be cattle prodded into barren, sterile rooms, forced to deliver and then moved out. Many want to make it a comforting and enjoyable (ha!) experience.

Maybe our young fundies are only being told from their mothers what hospitals were like 30 + years ago? Maybe it is a money thing (though I do have one friend who is a part of a christian medi share, and she said her entire birth was paid for so.....). Or maybe they feel that they are more Godly giving birth at home with no pain medication (a la Eve)?

I may sound off the wall here but I kind of blame documentaries like “The Business of Being Born” and then all the millions of blogs that followed. Anti-hospital birth is just a thing that has gotten a lot of traction in the US since that documentary and blogs  that convince first time moms that the only right way to give birth is at home. They convince them that doctors only think about themselves and not what’s best for moms and babies. It’s similar to the anti vaccine and scary big pharma haters. It’s not just fundies. But a lot of fundies buy into it.

Edited June 12, 2019 by JermajestyDuggar

[nelliebelle1197]

Sorry but as someone who at 26 weeks, had her blood pressure explode to 320/220 and had a urine protein of +15000 then had a 1.8 oz baby ripped from her belly before both of us died, I can't even with this. I know people have different definitions for "trauma" and experiences, but geez, she is damn lucky (as was I) and needs to be more aware of what birth trauma really is, especially considering what Melanie has experienced.

ETA: Rereading with a clearer mind - I do not think she was really acting as if the birth was traumatic. It just seemed like she was more scared and confused than anything.

 

Edited June 12, 2019 by nelliebelle1197

[Melissa1977]

49 minutes ago, Bazinga said:

Is it just her Amish up-bringing?

I think her 3 sisters-in-law (Bontrager side) have had hospital births. It is Maxwells who are pro-homebirth. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

3 minutes ago, Melissa1977 said:

I think her 3 sisters-in-law (Bontrager side) have had hospital births. It is Maxwells who are pro-homebirth. 

The Bowers girls went to the same birthing center. Their mother did have some hospital births according to their blog. I think Bryan had a hospital birth but she also went to a fundie college across the US and her parents have only 4 kids. I’m pretty sure Chelsy’s mother had some homebirths. It’s not just a Maxwell thing. 

[Foudeb]

No snark from me. As my health visitor said this morning, all births are traumatic, even if just in a physical sense. It's at the extreme end of what a human body can do. 

Good on Chelsy to go get help in time. Trust them to maybe plan a bit better next time. 

[sparkles]

I measure all birthing stories against that of Sparkling Lauren—she who gave birth on the muddy floor of a tent in a flooded campground full of Rainbow people, without any doctors, midwives, doulas or even a Starbucks barista who could boil water, cut off from any access to help in case of emergency. So compared to that, Chelsy’s birth story sounds like a work of precision planning that could rival the D Day invasion.

 

[SPHASH]

Does Leavenworth not have a hospital.  I understand Wonder Woman Melanie going to KC as she is high risk but I would think Judgy Chelsy could be airlifted to KC if need be.  Oh I forgot they are probably on Scamaritan insurance where praying someone helps them out is the only option.  So Amish Anna and Invisible Elissa had easier births as far as we know and Judgy probably expected the same outcome.  But those two are probably more virtuous than Judgy according to God.

[Coconut Flan]

St. Luke's has a maternity center (allegedly the only one in Leavenworth) and Providence has a maternity ward and is 20 minutes away.  

[Ozlsn]

2 hours ago, sparkles said:

I measure all birthing stories against that of Sparkling Lauren—she who gave birth on the muddy floor of a tent in a flooded campground full of Rainbow people, without any doctors, midwives, doulas or even a Starbucks barista who could boil water, cut off from any access to help in case of emergency. So compared to that, Chelsy’s birth story sounds like a work of precision planning that could rival the D Day invasion.

I had forgotten that one. I had to put the phone down and walk away for a bit to calm down when I read about it, it absolutely infuriated me. And yeah, at least Chelsy had access to a car and a hospital - and some non-intoxicated people to help, some of whom were professionals. On that front the planning was much better.

9 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Sorry but as someone who at 26 weeks, had her blood pressure explode to 320/220 and had a urine protein of +15000 then had a 1.8 oz baby ripped from her belly before both of us died, I can't even with this. I know people have different definitions for "trauma" and experiences, but geez, she is damn lucky (as was I)

She is. You are. Me too - not dissimilar experience to you actually. It took me a long time to be able to not see red at some of the things being said about traumatic births (particularly "the healthy baby lie"/"the myth of a healthy baby" - reading that for the first time in a week where my son was unstable, my friend's baby passed away in NICU, and another friend's child was having major surgery was... an unfortunately timed experience. Trust me, having the healthy child is a shitload better than not, even if it doesn't change the trauma of giving birth itself.) I wish there was better support postnatally, particularly with follow up for things that occurred during birth that women might benefit from being able to discuss and longer term follow up for any ongoing issues that women might not be comfortable bringing up with a GP. 6 weeks is kind of short really, and the maternal child nurse follow up here becomes very child-focused early on (and I think by the mothers as much as the nurses tbh) - it would be good if they asked about continence, trauma etc and were able to refer onwards. 

[OhNoNike]

23 hours ago, divadivine said:

@OhNoNike do you live in Indianapolis? I help out at a pottery studio PRN. I actually did infant footprints for a family while the Mom nursed the baby. The baby was hungry. I told the Mom “If you don’t mind, I’ll do the footprints while you’re nursing because the baby will be relaxed & less likely to move around too much.” She was all like “Sure!” So, I got those footprints done, baby was oblivious to what I was doing with the paint & by the time I finished the footprints & cleaning up the feet, the baby was almost finished eating. They added the personalization to the tiles & they were done/ready to pay when the baby was finished nursing. Probably the easiest footprints I’ve done. 

Hi!  Nope, I’m not in Indianapolis, but I love that story!!

[AuntCloud]

10 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Sorry but as someone who at 26 weeks, had her blood pressure explode to 320/220 and had a urine protein of +15000 then had a 1.8 oz baby ripped from her belly before both of us died, I can't even with this. I know people have different definitions for "trauma" and experiences, but geez, she is damn lucky (as was I) and needs to be more aware of what birth trauma really is, especially considering what Melanie has experienced.

ETA: Rereading with a clearer mind - I do not think she was really acting as if the birth was traumatic. It just seemed like she was more scared and confused than anything.

 

I went the 26-week route, pre-eclampsia, bp through the roof, micropreemie route as well. Being wheeled into the OR with the entire staff of the high-risk OB ward hovering around me looking concerned, not knowing if I’ll see the end of the day with (a) a baby, (b) no permanent damage to any major organs, and (c) alive was... not fun. When I was able to drag myself to NICU and visit my 1.10 preemie, I saw other moms who were as shell-shocked as I was, only their babies were 4.5 lb. 34 weekers. They were as traumatized as me, which was a bit of a bitter pill to swallow considering their kids went home way before my own kid was breathing on her own or reached 2 lb. To them, giving birth at 34 weeks was as shocking as giving birth at 26 weeks was to me, and having a 4-5 lb baby rather than the expected 7-9 one was a totally unexpected blow. I admit, I had to actively look into myself and find sympathy for them - this definitely happened way after my own baby was out of the woods. To me, NICU was the best case scenario, to them it was a let-down from the perfect birth they envisioned. 

[nelliebelle1197]

7 hours ago, AuntCloud said:

I went the 26-week route, pre-eclampsia, bp through the roof, micropreemie route as well. Being wheeled into the OR with the entire staff of the high-risk OB ward hovering around me looking concerned, not knowing if I’ll see the end of the day with (a) a baby, (b) no permanent damage to any major organs, and (c) alive was... not fun. When I was able to drag myself to NICU and visit my 1.10 preemie, I saw other moms who were as shell-shocked as I was, only their babies were 4.5 lb. 34 weekers. They were as traumatized as me, which was a bit of a bitter pill to swallow considering their kids went home way before my own kid was breathing on her own or reached 2 lb. To them, giving birth at 34 weeks was as shocking as giving birth at 26 weeks was to me, and having a 4-5 lb baby rather than the expected 7-9 one was a totally unexpected blow. I admit, I had to actively look into myself and find sympathy for them - this definitely happened way after my own baby was out of the woods. To me, NICU was the best case scenario, to them it was a let-down from the perfect birth they envisioned. 

But should you have to find sympathy? I am not so sure we are obligated in that way. I was lucky in that my hospital kept those babies in another room and sick babies like ours has their own section of the NICU. L’il Nell was the smallest baby by far but not the sickest. Our culture and privilege in the west have led us to fetishize birth almost as much as weddings and other things that should be simple and private. I just hate for you  that you felt like you had muster sympathy in that circumstance ❤️

[Ozlsn]

9 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

But should you have to find sympathy? I am not so sure we are obligated in that way.

Have to maybe not, but I think it is helpful to recognise that trauma is trauma even if it's not the same as your story. 

One reason is that you can end up with people getting really competitive over who had the worse experience, which is something that comes up quite a bit in prem groups. Mothers of later prems often feel like they're being told that their experience is less valid because their baby wasn't a microprem, and they only spent a month in NICU or were only in SCN - but they still weren't expecting to give birth early, or leave the hospital without their baby and it was still shocking and traumatic for them too. So I think it's useful to recognise that people can be traumatised, even if you're inwardly rolling your eyes a bit because it looks like such an easy experience compared to yours.

(Mind you I also think it would be helpful for hospitals to separate people who had microprems and who are coming to the end of their hospital stay from people who just had their later prem baby and are in a state of shock at the start of their stay in the special care nursery. Pretty much all the microprem parents I know found that really hard to deal with - not least because the new parents were still learning the hospital rules and bringing in multiple family members, hot drinks etc - and some of it was also due to overcrowding in that area. The newly built hospital is apparently better.)