Dillards 73: A Bitter Dill

[Jellybean]

Carry on from here:

We left the last thread in the middle of a discussion about hate symbols and the imagery of discrimination - the swastika and iron cross, the confederate flag, etc.

How do we acknowledge and teach the atrocities of the past to ensure that our mistakes are not repeated? How do we protect people from the fear associated with being on the receiving end of such hatred and discrimination? 

Deep questions for a Monday morning on the Dillard thread...

[StraightOuttaArkansas]

I am on the fence about the nature of that book, but I will add that growing up in AR and having had AR history in school, it is NOT highlighted enough (ok that may have changed, but when I was in school) what the real meaning was behind that flag. It was only in the last few years that I was able to make the connections, know I should learn more about it, and see it as something shameful. It's not like we are taught down there it is something to be proud of anything, but more a "yeah it's our history, whatever" kind of tone that some have said up thread might lead to a sort of apathy. I would believe it if the Dills said they didn't see anything wrong with it and were unable to give a short history of it, especially going to the SOTDRT. I went to public schools after elementary and still ended up with an incomplete picture. We covered the Civil War and slavery in our history lessons, but a section on the symbols of this is sorely lacking.

[mpheels]

There are a number of countries in Europe that ban display of swastikas. White supremacists in those countries often use the confederate flag instead. It was really disconcerting to see a group of German bikers wearing confederate flags while on holiday in Italy. 

[VelociRapture]

Pulling from the last thread:

I live in Connecticut - for our non- US based posters, it’s a small state in the Northeastern part of the country. My state sided with the Union during the Civil War, yet we still have idiots up here who proudly display the Confederate flag and we have our fair share of racists. A few examples:

- I was best friends with a woman I had known since Elementary School for about twenty years. There were many reasons the friendship ended, but one of them was due to her family’s racism. They were lovely people to me and I never saw them act in a racist way towards another human being... however, her father and brothers made racist jokes about President Obama and his family when the topic would come up - and it came up a lot with me because I was the token liberal. Her youngest brother also had the Confederate flag displayed on the back wind shield of his truck.*

- We’ve seen other trucks driven around with the Confederate flag on it as well. It always elicits a WTF look from my husband and I. 

- The final Klan gathering in the state occurred in the late 90s or early 2000s. The local paper ran stories about it after Charlottesville - I guess a nationally known white supremacist held a rally in the town due to something about Martin Luther King Jr. Day. The rally was scarcely attended, but tons of people from the area turned out in opposition. The opposition was so loud in their demonstrations that the people actually attending the rally couldn’t hear anything, so it ended pretty quickly. 

- There was something in my hometown about swatsikas at the golf course when I was a kid. I think someone spray painted them on the building or something. I was pretty young, but I was old enough to know about the Holocaust and I remember being upset and confused about it. 

- There was a homeowner in our town a few years back who spray painted racist imagery and words on his own house. I guess he was pissed off because he sold land to a developer who then started building on it. I clearly don’t remember the details, but the general idea was he was trying to scare off potential buyers. Fucking dumbass. 

Those are just examples I can think of off the top of my head. So yeah. The South certainly has a reputation for racism that it has earned to a certain degree, but the rest of the country isn’t that much better. 

*Its been almost 2.5 years now and I’m still torn about our friendship ending. She was an important part of my life for a very long time and it hurts knowing she’ll never know my daughter and I’ll never know her’s. But I also know that we were moving in very different directions politically and I just couldn’t do it anymore. I’m hoping more time will help me get over it. 

[SusanAtTheLastBattle]

Quoting @Beermeet in the last thread:

Quote

was it Yale that had stained glass depictions of cotton picking slaves in a common area?  Not that it's ok in any area, just trying to narrow down which ivy league school that is. I believe they finally took them down.  

This was a crazy story. There were stained glass windows depicting slaves picking cotton in a Yale dining hall for years and years. One day, a Black dining worker smashed the windows. He was fired; student and community protests helped get him rehired and got the university not to press charges.

Here's a piece reflecting on the man who smashed the window, Corey Menafee:

https://www.newhavenindependent.org/index.php/archives/entry/new_havener_of_the_year1/

[PennySycamore]

(I was writing a post on the previous thread and went to bed before I was finished and lost what I wrote.  This might be better anyway.)

We seemed to have been making progress on racism but I think it was more that racism was seen as no longer socially acceptable than that people's attitudes had done a 180. Some people had changed, but not nearly all of them.  I live in SC and saw my first Klan sticker on a car within a month of President Obama's inauguration.  How dare a black man -an intelligent, witty black man- have the audacity to get himself elected president?  it's become worse since then with the racism really ramping up since it has the imprimatur of the Tangerine Toddler.  

Bruce Gerencser has a great post about evangelicals, fundies and racism today.  I'm not going to post  it here, but it's well worth reading.

The Curse of Cain: Why Blacks Have Dark Skin

This is the kind of crap that Bruce was taught/heard in church and not what he actually ever believed.

 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

2 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

Pulling from the last thread:

I live in Connecticut - for our non- US based posters, it’s a small state in the Northeastern part of the country. My state sided with the Union during the Civil War, yet we still have idiots up here who proudly display the Confederate flag and we have our fair share of racists. A few examples:

- I was best friends with a woman I had known since Elementary School for about twenty years. There were many reasons the friendship ended, but one of them was due to her family’s racism. They were lovely people to me and I never saw them act in a racist way towards another human being... however, her father and brothers made racist jokes about President Obama and his family when the topic would come up - and it came up a lot with me because I was the token liberal. Her youngest brother also had the Confederate flag displayed on the back wind shield of his truck.*

- We’ve seen other trucks driven around with the Confederate flag on it as well. It always elicits a WTF look from my husband and I. 

- The final Klan gathering in the state occurred in the late 90s or early 2000s. The local paper ran stories about it after Charlottesville - I guess a nationally known white supremacist held a rally in the town due to something about Martin Luther King Jr. Day. The rally was scarcely attended, but tons of people from the area turned out in opposition. The opposition was so loud in their demonstrations that the people actually attending the rally couldn’t hear anything, so it ended pretty quickly. 

- There was something in my hometown about swatsikas at the golf course when I was a kid. I think someone spray painted them on the building or something. I was pretty young, but I was old enough to know about the Holocaust and I remember being upset and confused about it. 

- There was a homeowner in our town a few years back who spray painted racist imagery and words on his own house. I guess he was pissed off because he sold land to a developer who then started building on it. I clearly don’t remember the details, but the general idea was he was trying to scare off potential buyers. Fucking dumbass. 

Those are just examples I can think of off the top of my head. So yeah. The South certainly has a reputation for racism that it has earned to a certain degree, but the rest of the country isn’t that much better. 

*Its been almost 2.5 years now and I’m still torn about our friendship ending. She was an important part of my life for a very long time and it hurts knowing she’ll never know my daughter and I’ll never know her’s. But I also know that we were moving in very different directions politically and I just couldn’t do it anymore. I’m hoping more time will help me get over it. 

I've recently had to fade away from 2 friends that I've had since childhood, I've known one woman for 40 years the other for 35, but the one women I've known since Jr high I've come to realize is just a horrible person, she's narrow minded, racist, nasty, bitter and just plain old mean.  the other woman isn't as bad, she's just lost right now, she's in a haze of prescription drugs, she isn't hateful & mean but she's very gullible and stubbornly & willfully ignorant, this relationship is harder to let go of because we've been like sisters but she won't reach out to me and I have to do all the work to keep the friendship active and I just don't want to anymore. I'm sick of having to always be the one who gives. I'm honestly not even sure they've realized I've blocked them from my social media and my email and my phone that is how little they try to get in touch with me and I've been a fool to try to keep the friendships alive when they just don't care about anyone but themselves. It sucks, but I think we will both bet better off with out the negative people in our lives.  

[Pecansforeveryone]

@PennySycamore, I think you are one of my "kindred" spirits here on Free Jinger. I read that article by Bruce just last night. I know that historically the Mormon church preached the "mark of Cain" being black skin. I forget the exact year but the ban on African-Americans in the priesthood was only lifted in the 1970s. Even with the Catholic Church there hasn't been an African cardinal or darker-skinned Hispanic or Phillipino cardinal that has become Pope. 

[singsingsing]

3 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

I live in Connecticut - for our non- US based posters, it’s a small state in the Northeastern part of the country.

Can I just say how much I appreciate this? I'm pretty good with U.S. geography (except for when I accidentally add Pennsylvania to New England and forget that Nebraska exists) but the fact that you thought to take the time to give some context for those of us who aren't from the States and may not be as familiar with the country is really cool.

[VelociRapture]

7 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Can I just say how much I appreciate this? I'm pretty good with U.S. geography (except for when I accidentally add Pennsylvania to New England and forget that Nebraska exists) but the fact that you thought to take the time to give some context for those of us who aren't from the States and may not be as familiar with the country is really cool.

Aw thanks! Credit should really go to @adidasthough. I wouldn’t have thought to mention anything about geography if they hadn’t mentioned that they aren’t in the US. Sometimes it’s easy to forget that not everyone here is from my country because we all usually communicate so well and have more in common than we have differences.

1 hour ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

I've recently had to fade away from 2 friends that I've had since childhood, I've known one woman for 40 years the other for 35, but the one women I've known since Jr high I've come to realize is just a horrible person, she's narrow minded, racist, nasty, bitter and just plain old mean.  the other woman isn't as bad, she's just lost right now, she's in a haze of prescription drugs, she isn't hateful & mean but she's very gullible and stubbornly & willfully ignorant, this relationship is harder to let go of because we've been like sisters but she won't reach out to me and I have to do all the work to keep the friendship active and I just don't want to anymore. I'm sick of having to always be the one who gives. I'm honestly not even sure they've realized I've blocked them from my social media and my email and my phone that is how little they try to get in touch with me and I've been a fool to try to keep the friendships alive when they just don't care about anyone but themselves. It sucks, but I think we will both bet better off with out the negative people in our lives.  

Things between us ended in a spectacularly public manner, which is partly why it’s been tough. I don’t hate her or her family either, so that probably makes it tough too. I strongly disapprove of their political views and the way they speak about others, but I don’t hate them and I’ll always treasure the good times. We had one final text conversation and the last text I sent her requested she not contact me again, but it also said that I wish her and her family well - and that’s the truth. I suppose that mixed feelings are somewhat normal considering how close we were, but I like to hope that I’m better off without her around.

[Bad Wolf]

1 hour ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

@PennySycamore, I think you are one of my "kindred" spirits here on Free Jinger. I read that article by Bruce just last night. I know that historically the Mormon church preached the "mark of Cain" being black skin. I forget the exact year but the ban on African-Americans in the priesthood was only lifted in the 1970s. Even with the Catholic Church there hasn't been an African cardinal or darker-skinned Hispanic or Phillipino cardinal that has become Pope. 

Our former presiding bishop was a white woman. Our current one is a black man. He preached at Harry and Megan's wedding.

[Carm_88]

As a Canadian, I didn't realize that full effect of the Confederate flag until I took an American history course in university. I had some general knowledge that it was from the Civil War, but the whys didn't come about until then. We learned about the history of slavery in junior high because we read books about the underground railway and how Canada was freedom for the escaped slaves. I guess it just never clicked that North and South fought over the right to own people. 

Does it have to be taught? Absolutely, just as we have to teach about the holocaust and other genocides. However, much like Canadian treatment of indigenous people, it has to stop being white washed. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

Jill posted a recipe for kale chips! And it was...fine! Yay Jill!

[MarblesMom]

11 hours ago, singsingsing said:

forget that Nebraska exists

It's ok, go ahead    

[singsingsing]

1 minute ago, MarblesMom said:

It's ok, go ahead    

I'm sorry!!! I'll tell you this, after forgetting multiple times, I NEVER forget now. Because it always pops into my brain as, 'the state that I used to forget existed.' The worst part is that I actually have relatives who live in Nebraska. Not close ones, but still. ?‍♀️

[AliceInFundyland]

8 minutes ago, MarblesMom said:

It's ok, go ahead    

I had a fine time in Lincoln. My friends and I took a trip over from Iowa (college). Bro had been selected to do theater in a festival. We went and saw him. They won. Drove down wrong way down a one way.  Stopped at some motel that gave us a room with heart shaped jacuzzi (my love of in room jacuzzis is documented elsewhere on fJ)

Flashed a ton of truckers on that trip with the free spirits of young stupid girls.

Good Midwest memory!

But we need to get you over here on the West Coast.  

[nastyhobbitses]

17 hours ago, mpheels said:

There are a number of countries in Europe that ban display of swastikas. White supremacists in those countries often use the confederate flag instead. It was really disconcerting to see a group of German bikers wearing confederate flags while on holiday in Italy. 

See, this is why my cynical side thinks that banning symbols is an empty gesture. Hate and evil just find new ways to manifest. 

[onekidanddone]

9 hours ago, singsingsing said:

I'm sorry!!! I'll tell you this, after forgetting multiple times, I NEVER forget now. Because it always pops into my brain as, 'the state that I used to forget existed.' The worst part is that I actually have relatives who live in Nebraska. Not close ones, but still. ?‍♀️

Hey don't feel bad.  Some Americans don't know that New Mexico isn't in Mexico.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

@singsingsing you know more US geography than most Americans.  Most would say Pennsylvania isn't in New England and are pretty sure Nebraska is the capital of Africa, and think this is the rest of the country.  

 

[AreYouThereGothard?]

10 minutes ago, onekidanddone said:

Hey don't feel bad.  Some Americans don't know that New Mexico isn't in Mexico.

We were at a family wedding in New York when I was a kid. Dad mentioned that we were from Ohio. Reply: “where’s that” ?

I should probably back this up and say that I’m a first generation American and my family’s not from these parts, but I think she was young enough to have a general understanding of the states. I think most of my family has at least heard of Ohio, lol.

Non-American pals interested in geography: Ohio is on the eastern edge of the Midwest and we're kind of shaped like a heart. We’re known for our cornfields, Amish people, 8 presidents, and few astronauts, and LeBron James. Politically, we’re a “swing state” meaning we can go either way between Democrats and Republicans, but I’d say we lean conservative-moderate because Jesus and corn. If you want to be an emotional wreck during your visit in the US, come to Ohio during election season and we can lament over Jeni’s ice cream

 

[Alisamer]

I'm going to try to remember to be more specific about geography if it's relevant - Everyone communicates so well here that sometimes I just forget that there are many people from around the world here!

Several years ago I ended up "breaking up" with my best friend of many, many years. We'd been inseparable, always at each other's houses, had traveled together, etc. I felt like we'd been growing apart for over a year at that point, and it was time to step back, but she burned the bridge after I crossed it. It was so hard but it was a relief in the end. I couldn't deal with her drama anymore, and she was using me as a crutch. It was by far the right decision.

I wish her well. And that's all I would say about her for YEARS, (and only when asked) despite her claiming that I had been badmouthing her. I told some close friends "Sounds like she's happy, I'm happy for her, and happy I don't have to deal with her anymore." But at this point, I don't care anymore. It took me way too long to realize that she was inviting me over constantly not to hang out with me, but to distract her husband. The many times I showed up to "go to dinner" with them, only to find her in her rattiest pajamas calling in an order for me and her husband to go pick up at the Chinese place should have clued me in, but it took her inviting me over to watch a 2-hour TV show, then half an hour in announcing she was going to take a bath "so she didn't have to afterward, since it's a work night", and then proceeding to stay in the tub in the only bathroom in the house for over an hour. Having phone sex with her side boyfriend who she was doing very little to hide from anyone but her husband.

Screw her. She sucks. Glad she's out of my life. 

(I guess I needed to rant about that a bit today. Usually I forget she exists for months at a time, now! She spent 7 years ranting about me randomly and vague-posting on Facebook every few months while my family and I never said a word about her, so I am taking this one opportunity to speak my mind. And if she sees this that's OK, because anything I had to say I said to HER, not to other people until now.)

[PennySycamore]

Some years ago, my husband had an employee who was raised in IIRC, Argentina by missionary parents.  She thought South America was a country, not a continent.  This woman was a college graduate although from a college I don't associate with academic rigor.

[Meggo]

I worked with a woman who was pursuing her masters degree - so she already had a university degree - who wondered if New Mexico would be considered an international flight (from another US state). (Side note - I don't expect EVERYONE to know that New Mexico is a US state - but I kind of expect that from Americans.) 

She wondered it out loud. She was a gem - she said all sorts of random and ridiculous things - we kept a list. 
 

[Jilli]

20 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

As a Canadian, I didn't realize that full effect of the Confederate flag until I took an American history course in university. I had some general knowledge that it was from the Civil War, but the whys didn't come about until then. We learned about the history of slavery in junior high because we read books about the underground railway and how Canada was freedom for the escaped slaves. I guess it just never clicked that North and South fought over the right to own people. 

Does it have to be taught? Absolutely, just as we have to teach about the holocaust and other genocides. However, much like Canadian treatment of indigenous people, it has to stop being white washed. 

One thing that absolutely bothers me about my American education is if I were to just go after that I would know far more about the Rwanda Genocide than I do about the Holocaust. Now, I did a massive history day project on it in middle school so I ended up learning about it in depth. It’s quite annoying when you sit through several American History classes and their summary of WWII is Hitler and Nazis are bad, but let’s gloss over why so we can cheer on the allied forces and then take all the credit. Sorry weird random tangent over.

As for the confederate flag, it makes me so uncomfortable to see it. We had idiots in my high schools small town who loved to fly it over their pickup trucks. It was dumb too. I live in Minnesota. You can’t get more north than that in the lower 48. For anyone outside in the US or are just unfamiliar with the middle.

This is what it would look like if we were added to Canada. The joke that goes with this picture is “do you think anyone would notice?”

[metheglyn]

44 minutes ago, Meggo said:

I worked with a woman who was pursuing her masters degree - so she already had a university degree - who wondered if New Mexico would be considered an international flight (from another US state). (Side note - I don't expect EVERYONE to know that New Mexico is a US state - but I kind of expect that from Americans.) 

She wondered it out loud. She was a gem - she said all sorts of random and ridiculous things - we kept a list. 
 

I was reading amateur fiction recently that had someone meeting a person flying directly from New York to California and the greeter had to wait for the traveler to pass through customs. I'm *assuming* (and hoping really hard) that the author was not American and thus didn't realize that yes, you *can* fly that kind of distance within a single country and thus customs is not going to be involved, but it was rather jarring to read.