Josie and Kelton 3: Living in the White Evangelical Bubble

[Hisey]

3 hours ago, llucie said:

We dont know, but we know she choose to marry Kelton, who is a Trump supporter. Althought there is some instances were people with totally oposite ideologies fall in love i dont think its the case here.

I'm no fan of Trump, but this does not conclusively prove that Kelton holds fundie beliefs. I know many Trump supporters and they all believe women can wear pants and use birth control.

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, Hisey said:

this does not conclusively prove that Kelton holds fundie beliefs.

I would say him managing to get through all the hoops Gil apparently made him get through before courtship puts him firmly in the fundie camp. Gil might not care about marrying his daughters off to men who are okay with pants and working in family businesses(like Alyssa), but a guy who is "hell yeah! birth control! and gender equality!" isn't going to get Gil's approval to court one of his daughters. At least not this point. It is strange to think otherwise. 

[TeaELSee]

This is from his Instagram:  11/16

keltonbalka

Stars, stripes, and elephants ???? #trumptrain #thischristianvotes

[Hisey]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

I would say him managing to get through all the hoops Gil apparently made him get through before courtship puts him firmly in the fundie camp. Gil might not care about marrying his daughters off to men who are okay with pants and working in family businesses(like Alyssa), but a guy who is "hell yeah! birth control! and gender equality!" isn't going to get Gil's approval to court one of his daughters. At least not this point. It is strange to think otherwise. 

1. That is Kelton. Josie is a different person. It's entirely possible she has her own thoughts. My husband and I don't agree on every political issue.

2. It's entirely possible that Kelton--smitten as he was-- told Gil what Gil wanted to hear.

I'm just saying, give Josie a chance. We don't know for sure that she holds "hateful views." She may think her father is a doofus blowhard. Lots of adolescents and young adults have different ideas from their parents.

I agree, the group of fundie kids who become liberals is small indeed. However, I'm not willing to say Josie has "hateful beliefs" until I'm sure she does indeed have them.

1 hour ago, TeaELSee said:

This is from his Instagram:  11/16

keltonbalka

Stars, stripes, and elephants ???? #trumptrain #thischristianvotes

Kelton and Josie are different people.

[TeaELSee]

I could not marry a Trump voter, I can’t stand racism and I like the constitution.

[singsingsing]

I assume these people are fundamentalists and therefore by default hold hateful beliefs until they give me good reason to think otherwise. So far Josie has given me no reason to assume she’s not a fundie and plenty of reason to assume she still is. I’m not giving any of them the benefit of the doubt. These are the people attempting to turn the U.S. into a fascist Christian theocracy. Assuming the best of them is dangerous.

[Hisey]

13 hours ago, singsingsing said:

I assume these people are fundamentalists and therefore by default hold hateful beliefs until they give me good reason to think otherwise. So far Josie has given me no reason to assume she’s not a fundie and plenty of reason to assume she still is. I’m not giving any of them the benefit of the doubt. These are the people attempting to turn the U.S. into a fascist Christian theocracy. Assuming the best of them is dangerous.

I think it's unfair to judge Josie (or any of the kids) based on their parents' beliefs. If she says something hateful or racist, then OK, she's hateful and racist.

Until then, she is just a person who has hateful and racist parents.

I really think these kids have enough against them (horrible childhood, brutal corporal punishment, no choices in hair/clothes) without people assuming they are RACIST and HATEFUL simply because they grew up in a fundie household. 

[SilverBeach]

On 11/19/2018 at 10:40 AM, nausicaa said:

Now I'm realizing that guests are walking in, silently rolling their eyes, and thinking "Impersonal, basic bitch." Damnit... ?

I would be thinking "nice".  I like how you roll.

[Hisey]

13 hours ago, singsingsing said:

Josie has given me no reason to assume she’s not a fundie and plenty of reason to assume she still is.

If there are "plenty of reasons", then OK. What are the "plenty of reasons"? 

[TeaELSee]

She married a person who supports racism and authoritarianism.

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

12 hours ago, Hisey said:

If there are "plenty of reasons", then OK. What are the "plenty of reasons"? 

not sure if this is a genuine question, albeit phrased in a combative manner, or if you're being deliberately obtuse.

[Hisey]

Actually, I'm genuinely curious.  Sorry it didn't come across that way.

JillyJo said:

On 11/21/2018 at 8:02 AM, JillyO said:

And while I don't think that cutting her hair and wearing pants means that she is changing her hateful beliefs,

And I'm asking. . . what hateful things has Josie said? Or done? 

I'm not in a big rush to hate on people. Gil, Kelly, Michelle, Jim Bob. . . these guys have done and said things that are clearly horrible. I think they definitely have detestable views.

But a 19-year old girl, barely out of childhood, who has said nothing to indicate her own views? I'm not going to hate on her just yet. You can, if you want. I'm going to give her a chance. 

When Josie protests outside an abortion clinic, or hits her toddlers with plumbing line. . . THEN I will say she has hateful views.

 

[miss_batson]

 

[freethemall]

20 hours ago, Hisey said:

I think it's unfair to judge Josie (or any of the kids) based on their parents' beliefs. If she says something hateful or racist, then OK, she's hateful and racist.

Until then, she is just a person who has hateful and racist parents.

I really think these kids have enough against them (horrible childhood, brutal corporal punishment, no choices in hair/clothes) without people assuming they are RACIST and HATEFUL simply because they grew up in a fundie household. 

Well, except that their parents have indoctrinated them with their own hateful beliefs. However, we've seen them go against small beliefs of their parents so they clearly pick and choose. Overall though I think you're partially right, we really don't 100% know their beliefs.

[Hisey]

3 hours ago, freethemall said:

Well, except that their parents have indoctrinated them with their own hateful beliefs.

I doubt all 19 kids believe 100 percent of what their parents say. Some do, some don't. My point is, we can't blame Josie for her parents' beliefs. My beliefs are 180 degrees different from my own parents, and they did their best to indoctrinate me. Many people here can say the same.

[mango_fandango]

Josie actually looks quite like Alyssa in those photos. 

[freethemall]

On 11/23/2018 at 11:50 AM, Hisey said:

I doubt all 19 kids believe 100 percent of what their parents say. Some do, some don't. My point is, we can't blame Josie for her parents' beliefs. My beliefs are 180 degrees different from my own parents, and they did their best to indoctrinate me. Many people here can say the same.

I'd be more inclined to agree with this if she was estranged from her family. Instead, she's so far followed the exact path theyve laid out for her - homeschool to a Christian college where she studied an acceptable trade for her gender, courtship to an early marriage to an approved husband, with no intimacy or living together before marriage. She is willingly on their show that subtly pushes their beliefs on a Christian network, and promotes herself on Instagram in a way that continues her TV show character. She is friends with other fundies. For all I can see, her parents were successful in indoctrinating her.

[formergothardite]

27 minutes ago, freethemall said:

She is willingly on their show that subtly pushes their beliefs on a Christian network,

Yes, she is participating in helping normalize dangerous beliefs of patriarchy and hate. She is an active part of a show that sugar coats the evil beliefs and cult mindset of her family, she married a guy who supports hate and racism, she hasn't strayed from the fundie path her parents approve of, so yeah, there seems to be no indication she isn't still fundie as hell. 

 

[mollysmom]

33 minutes ago, freethemall said:

I'd be more inclined to agree with this if she was estranged from her family. Instead, she's so far followed the exact path theyve laid out for her - homeschool to a Christian college where she studied an acceptable trade for her gender, courtship to an early marriage to an approved husband, with no intimacy or living together before marriage. She is willingly on their show that subtly pushes their beliefs on a Christian network, and promotes herself on Instagram in a way that continues her TV show character. She is friends with other fundies. For all I can see, her parents were successful in indoctrinating her.

I have to respectfully disagree with this. I was raised extreme fundie. When you are living under their roof, you follow their rules (courtship, dress standards etc) There's no discussion allowed, you just do as you are told. Period. End of story. Now that I'm on my own I dress/act how I see fit. I am estranged from my family,  I don't go to church, but I'm still friends with other fundies. That's all I knew growing up & I loved some of them (still do) We are very different in our actions and beliefs but I still consider a few of them to be good friends. 

*Edited to add, it will be very telling (in my opinion) what she does from here on out now that she's married and out of their house. That will speak volumes about her. 

[Hisey]

2 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Yes, she is participating in helping normalize dangerous beliefs of patriarchy and hate. She is an active part of a show that sugar coats the evil beliefs and cult mindset of her family, she married a guy who supports hate and racism, she hasn't strayed from the fundie path her parents approve of, so yeah, there seems to be no indication she isn't still fundie as hell. 

 

Wow! In a rush to hate on Josie! She's been married what, a month? Let's wait and see what she does as a married woman. Maybe she'll be fundie, maybe not, but I can't automatically assume that her parents' beliefs are her own.

On 11/21/2018 at 7:56 PM, singsingsing said:

and plenty of reason to assume she still is.

So what are those "plenty of reasons"?

[singsingsing]

4 minutes ago, Hisey said:

So what are those "plenty of reasons"?

I think @freethemall and @formergothardite made posts just above that sum it up very well. There are many reasons to assume she's still just as fundie as the rest of her family and no reason to assume she's not. I'm not at all saying that it's impossible she'll move away from her family's beliefs, but what evidence is there for that, and why should we randomly assume that to be the case? Because she's cute and she wears jeans and she cut her hair? Lots of fundies are doing that now. Their style changes over time just like the rest of the world's. Fundies in the 90s had different styles and standards than they did in the 50s, or the 1850s, or the 1650s. Doesn't mean they're not fundies.

It's nice to want to believe the best of people, but deciding as soon as these kids are married and out of the house that we must no longer assume they're fundamentalists doesn't work. We have to assume they're fundamentalists until given reason to think otherwise. Like I said in my previous post, they're actively attempting to deny millions of other people their human rights and to turn the U.S. into a fascist Christian theocracy. If a dog lives in an abusive household where it's trained to attack people, I'm not going to assume that the dog is nice now that it lives in a different home. I'm going to wait a long time, be very cautious, and assume it's still the same until I have very good reason to believe that it's changed.

[Casserole]

2 hours ago, mollysmom said:

*Edited to add, it will be very telling (in my opinion) what she does from here on out now that she's married and out of their house. That will speak volumes about her. 

Yes, she put on pants like some of her sisters did before her. Honestly, if the cameras weren't rolling I'm not even sure Kelly/Gil would make a huge deal about pants (especially as insiders have said women on the IBLP campus have been wearing pants for years.) Now that they put the skirts only thing out there, they have to stick to it. I do not consider pants a step away from the family beliefs at all. 

So long as their show stays on the air and the adult children are taking in even a little bit of cash, I don't see any of them straying publicly from the brand. They may meet people or experience things outside of their fundie bubble away from the family that may cause some internal questioning of beliefs, but until their show is cancelled and the benefit of association ends, they aren't changing. 

The only benefit of the doubt I will give some of them, is that we only see what they choose to share and it is a *very* small snippet of their lives. We won't know if a lot of their beliefs change unless they share and I definitely do NOT see an instagram post like "hey guys! I'm not ready for kids yet because I'm still a teenager, so what are some of y'alls tips and tricks for NFP?! share in the comments below!" Lol it's not happening. 

But as long as they share their pro-trump/pro-guns/pro-life bullshit in those small snippets, I'll assume they're still rotten to the core. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I think @freethemall and @formergothardite made posts just above that sum it up very well. There are many reasons to assume she's still just as fundie as the rest of her family and no reason to assume she's not. I'm not at all saying that it's impossible she'll move away from her family's beliefs, but what evidence is there for that, and why should we randomly assume that to be the case? Because she's cute and she wears jeans and she cut her hair? Lots of fundies are doing that now. Their style changes over time just like the rest of the world's. Fundies in the 90s had different styles and standards than they did in the 50s, or the 1850s, or the 1650s. Doesn't mean they're not fundies.

It's nice to want to believe the best of people, but deciding as soon as these kids are married and out of the house that we must no longer assume they're fundamentalists doesn't work. We have to assume they're fundamentalists until given reason to think otherwise. Like I said in my previous post, they're actively attempting to deny millions of other people their human rights and to turn the U.S. into a fascist Christian theocracy. If a dog lives in an abusive household where it's trained to attack people, I'm not going to assume that the dog is nice now that it lives in a different home. I'm going to wait a long time, be very cautious, and assume it's still the same until I have very good reason to believe that it's changed.

I need an applause reaction.  Beautifully said.

[nelliebelle1197]

15 minutes ago, Hisey said:

Wow! In a rush to hate on Josie! She's been married what, a month? Let's wait and see what she does as a married woman. Maybe she'll be fundie, maybe not, but I can't automatically assume that her parents' beliefs are her own.

So what are those "plenty of reasons"?

Why are you so obsessed all of a sudden with Josie?

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, Hisey said:

Wow! In a rush to hate on Josie! She's been married what, a month? Let's wait and see what she does as a married woman. Maybe she'll be fundie, maybe not, but I can't automatically assume that her parents' beliefs are her own.

At this time, though, there are no signs she has changed. I don't hate her, I'm just pointing out that she has given no indication of quitting the show, a show that helps normalize top leaders of a dangerous cult and sugar coat hatred. As long as she is okay with normalizing hatred and dangerous beliefs then I'm going to assume she is still fundie. 

Sure, she might change in the future, but it isn't hate to say that at this time there is no sign that she has.