Josie and Kelton 3: Living in the White Evangelical Bubble

[sleepy_doggos]

That's fair. And what's complicated for me is that I don't disagree with you in many ways, I do think that many of their behaviors are wrong and destructive as I have tried to make clear, I just can't go whole hog on thinking the people in my life are fundamentally hateful because of things I personally disagree with and do agree with for on behalf of others. And yes, I think that lurkers and readers should be able to take a step back and look at the people in their lives and consider it. I just can't do stay a decently healthy person and forget influences In my life that were positive for me simultaneously.
In fact at lunch today the family member of mine who works for Hobby Lobby was talking about how they have been positively impacted by their job there. In my world right now, I can't make it as black and white as you say is correct. Others can, like yourself and[mention=11620]formergothardite[/mention], and I respect that. I simply cannot.

I also think 'giving a pass' is an unhelpful term. Not once have I excused their other decisions based on their kindness to me, I have simply said I cannot define them as solely and fundamentally evil.

[Hisey]

On 10/27/2018 at 3:06 PM, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I have a Hobby Lobby about a mile from my house and every Christmas, despite leaving everything to the last minute and being completely frazzled, I drive across town to Michaels.  I just can't line their pockets, no matter how small my purchases would be.

And yet. . . do we know what the owners of Michaels believes? Do we know how they acquire their products? Or treat their workers? Perhaps they have same evangelical beliefs and are quiet about them, but vote and send money to support racist or reactionary causes. Perhaps the top corporate honchos have a picture of Nathan Bedford Forest in the the executive dining room!Since when is Michaels the white angel of goodness?

It's fine to avoid HL if that's what you want. But it's silly to pretend it will make a difference in any meaningful way.

It won't, because you are giving/doing very little. Being frazzled about getting ready for Xmas, putting up your decorations a day late--none of that counts as a meaningful sacrifice. 

What WILL make a difference is something like this: Give up those things you want from HL, take the money, use it to help someone escaping from fundamentalism (like in a GoFundMe, for example).

[HerNameIsBuffy]

6 minutes ago, Hisey said:

But it's silly to pretend it will make a difference in any meaningful way.

I'm pretty sure I specifically said I know it will make no difference whatsoever, so stawman doesn't apply.

And no, I don't research the political leanings of every corp where i shop, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't factor into my decisions the things I do know when the decision makers of some companies are so open about their hateful beliefs.  

[TeaELSee]

I do not shop at stores that openly support bullshit.  

[HereticHick]

I am surprised that Josie didn't get a metric f**kton of inspirational plaques, picture frames and throw pillows as wedding gifts from every fundy leghumper in the lower 48. But, I guess she got some gift cards too, and she's using them.

[LawsonBatesEgo]

We don’t have Hobby Lobby where I live, but there are some shops and companies I avoid buying from for similar reasons. 

I know it won’t make a difference to them in terms of profits because there are people who will buy from them for the exact reasons I boycott them. 

I just like the personal piece of mind I get knowing that I am not supporting these companies by shopping there. 

I am sure some places I buy from have crappy beliefs and I don’t know about, but that is also why sometimes, keeping your mouth shut is smart business policy. 

[Carm_88]

I don't look up the political beliefs of every company that I shop at. However, if said company has been in the news for their bullshit and it's out there for everyone to see? Yeah, I'm going to avoid them. Does it make a difference to them? No, but it makes a difference to me.

[keen23]

48 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

I don't look up the political beliefs of every company that I shop at. However, if said company has been in the news for their bullshit and it's out there for everyone to see? Yeah, I'm going to avoid them. Does it make a difference to them? No, but it makes a difference to me.

Yes, this.

I don't shop at Hobby Lobby or eat Chic Fil A. Nor will I go to Sea World or any place that allows people to swim with dolphins in a pool. My dollars or lack thereof make $0 difference to the company's bottom line. It does allow me to sleep better at night knowing I'm not blatantly supporting something I'm against.

[Rachel333]

The disturbing thing is how impossible it is to avoid supporting something you're against. It would be really, really hard to avoid all clothes, electronics, and other items made in sweatshops, or food harvested by workers who are treated horribly. If you don't want to support slavery then you really shouldn't be buying chocolate. I don't go to Chic-fil-A  either, but I suppose I should actually find them less objectionable than many other big companies that aren't the target of widespread boycotts.

That's not to say you shouldn't boycott anything if you can't boycott everything. I think even small things matter, even if it's just an issue of personal ethics and not something that will make any real difference to the company. It can just be difficult to decide what you're okay with supporting and what you aren't.

[Carm_88]

12 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

 It can just be difficult to decide what you're okay with supporting and what you aren't.

Oh for sure! I think personally it comes down to supporting local businesses as much as I can. If I can't support local businesses, then I go for Canadian based companies and Canadian farmers before going international. It can be hard and you're not always going to be able to be the best version of yourself. Some day, I find myself in Walmart hating myself but knowing I need cat food and cat litter; would it be great if that wasn't the place I need to go and price didn't matter? Sure. It's not always possible, but you have to do the little things and know that Walmart doesn't make you a horrible person.

[JordynDarby5]

On 10/28/2018 at 11:48 AM, Bobology said:

As writer Dave Barry (I believe) once wrote... "If your friend is a nice person but is not nice to the waiter, then your friend is not a nice person" <paraphrased>

A few years ago I vowed never to give money to a Chickalay (grandson's name for it.) But one time we were at a mall early and he was hungry and it was Chick-Fil-A  or a cookie counter. I took him to Chickalay and he liked it. After months of pondering I decided that just because I happened to know the founders were hateful, I could still go there in decent conscience; not 'good', just decent. I have no idea how the clerk at my local grocery store, or the owners/employers/etc of the tire store and so on, spend their money. Any time I spend my money any where I could be fueling someone's ability to finally purchase fouly-used weapons, or child porn, or lots of things that are humanly and morally 'wrong' to me. I spend money where I need to, though I do realize the extent of the hatred and oppression that gobs of money can cause. For the record, I rarely give money to Hobby Lobby or WalMart or Chickalay. But if I were caught and needed to, I would.

I've thought a lot about that. I do love Chick-Fil-A's grilled chicken sandwich its one of the few fast food ones that I can eat the rest are either breaded or have it on bread I can't eat and have really good milkshakes. Its very annoying to half to swap out bread. I know people who eat there and aren't bothered by it or don't think the place they eat should apply to their beliefs, others who avoid the place and those who eat there but then donate to Planned Parenthood. The argument about not knowing anything about the believes of every person who waits on them, the restaurants, grocery stores, etc. That is true.  Except  for the grocery store I don't know anything about those business practices or beliefs. I know the grocery store because I used to work there and so did my brother I know the employees very well and have been so helpful and kind towards my family and our situation. They sent a huge bouquet of flowers and food when my mother died. We sent one when one of co-worker's mother died.  That's the main reason we shop there because we know them so well. I know a lot of donations to charities that specific store does because I used to work there. I certainly don't research every place my dad and I shop which maybe is wrong.  But I do know Hobby Lobby's stand on a lot of things. I know Chick-Fil-A, I do know how Walmart treats their employees. To me that's the difference. If I become aware it then I have to decide if I'm comfortable still doing business with them. Which I'm not. I'll take my business elsewhere. The owner of the bakery who refused to prepare a cake for a gay couple? I'll never shop in that store. Even thought its most likely from a business stand I had lot of respect for businesses that pulled their ADs from 19 Kids and Counting and Counting On. I wrote letters. Some I got the standard we'll look into it or doesn't followed the views of business doing the ADs. A couple I received had more then that coming out and saying they pulled them because of the sexual abuse they don't support it. I supported those companies and bought more from especially the two that said more because of that. I become more of a buyer from them. Even when I see a similar one that was cheaper. I'm going to keep giving them business until I because they did impress me by pulling their advertising.  If I hear otherwise then yes I'll drop them too.  

[formergothardite]

23 hours ago, Hisey said:

But it's silly to pretend it will make a difference in any meaningful way.

If lots of people decide to stop supporting businesses that are revealed to be terrible then things will change. As long as people support bad businesses they will have no incentive to change. It is really hard to avoid every business that does something terrible in this world, but we can try our best. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

5 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

If lots of people decide to stop supporting businesses that are revealed to be terrible then things will change. As long as people support bad businesses they will have no incentive to change. It is really hard to avoid every business that does something terrible in this world, but we can try our best. 

And if enough people do it it can act as a deterrent for other companies.

"Maybe we should do this horrible thing or contribute to this oppressive cause....look what happened to company X's profits when they did."

Accountability doesn't happen over night, but maybe some day.

[formergothardite]

Also, I found this old thread about the connection between the Green family and Gothard. 

Quote

In 2001, the Greens, through a family trust, sold Gothard's group a 2,250-acre campus in Big Sandy, Texas, for $10.

Quote

In 2000, Hobby Lobby donated a 529,717-square-foot building in Little Rock, Arkansas, to Gothard's outfit

Quote

In Nashville, the Institute operates a training center in a former hospital that Gothard says Hobby Lobby purchased for his group. Public records show that in 2005 a corporation affiliated with Hobby Lobby sold the facility to the Institute for $10. The Nashville Business Journal reported that Hobby Lobby bought the building for $3.5 million. It currently houses the Embassy Institute, where the Institute in Basic Life Principles hosts many seminars.
 

The Green family, according to Gothard, also "bought a training center in New Zealand and gave it to us."

 

[Hisey]

For all we know, the owners of Michael's give money to support Trump or to end government programs for impoverished children.

I'm not going to drive 30 miles extra (making a big carbon footprint) to make a stand that may be completely based in my imagination.  And then take a high moral ground for a gesture (and it is a gesture) that we don't even know is truly helping anything.

Why not take the time to research Michael's? Or donate the money you spend at Michaels (which really doesn't sell many "necessities") and donate it to a cause you believe in? Or go to Michaels (or Hobby Lobby) and buy things for a struggling school in an impoverished area?

Those are actions that are truly meaningful. Bypass Hobby Lobby if you want, but don't fool yourself about what that means.

For example, today I drove 40 miles to go and work with homeless kids. I know that my time was well-spent. 

Real change takes real effort.

[formergothardite]

30 minutes ago, Hisey said:

For all we know, the owners of Michael's give money to support Trump or to end government programs for impoverished children.

I did research and couldn't find out if he donated money to Trump, but they do donate money to a charity to help children. From what I could tell the stores also donate to local charities to help the community. They have not seemed to have used religion to deny medical care to employees, so there is that. 

33 minutes ago, Hisey said:

o make a stand that may be completely based in my imagination. 

Are you saying none of the claims about Hobby Lobby are true? They have been very vocal about their involvement in supporting political causes that oppress people who don't share their beliefs. And they did just get in trouble for buying stolen goods and then lying on government documents to smuggle them into the country. 

Yes, people boycotting businesses that support oppression can change things. It does take sustained effort though. 

[OldFadedStar]

What I find funny is that my father in law is vehemently opposed to Target due to their whole bathroom thing. Like, practically yelled at my mother in law in front of me for her buying gel pens there. He doesnt like them because they "are liberal and french"

Yet his favorite store ever is Amazon, in which Bezos has donated millions to LGBTQ equality, a few million to DACA recipients, and apparently one of the criteria for their new HQ is going to be a LGBTQ friendly state. 

My FIL is a very very conservative republican. To where when I mentioned that 99% of the worlds wealth is in the hands of 1% (or whatever that statistic is) his response was "And the problem with that is...?" 

It's not even worth the effort with him tbh. 

By the way, my baby registry is Target and I definitely had a "HAAA!!!" feeling when my MIL asked me where I was registering. I also love kinda showing off my target bags when im visiting them.  

[Carm_88]

2 hours ago, Hisey said:

Why not take the time to research Michael's? Or donate the money you spend at Michaels (which really doesn't sell many "necessities") and donate it to a cause you believe in? Or go to Michaels (or Hobby Lobby) and buy things for a struggling school in an impoverished area?

You don't know what people who buy from Michael's are doing with what they buy there. My friend just bought a big haul of yarn from there and what do you think she's doing with it? Well, she's using that horrible yarn bought at Michael's to make hats, mittens, and scarves for Project Kindness. Project Kindness gives out these knitted items to the homeless and underprivileged. Yeah, buying stuff at Michael's is utterly horrible. How dare she? What an awful human being.

[Rachel333]

 

1 hour ago, OldFadedStar said:

Yet his favorite store ever is Amazon, in which Bezos has donated millions to LGBTQ equality, a few million to DACA recipients, and apparently one of the criteria for their new HQ is going to be a LGBTQ friendly state. 

It's also a company that is known for treating its workers poorly and has fought hard to keep unions from forming. I'm not impressed with Bezos.

[JillyO]

5 hours ago, Hisey said:

For all we know, the owners of Michael's give money to support Trump or to end government programs for impoverished children.

I'm not going to drive 30 miles extra (making a big carbon footprint) to make a stand that may be completely based in my imagination.  And then take a high moral ground for a gesture (and it is a gesture) that we don't even know is truly helping anything.

Why not take the time to research Michael's? Or donate the money you spend at Michaels (which really doesn't sell many "necessities") and donate it to a cause you believe in? Or go to Michaels (or Hobby Lobby) and buy things for a struggling school in an impoverished area?

Those are actions that are truly meaningful. Bypass Hobby Lobby if you want, but don't fool yourself about what that means.

For example, today I drove 40 miles to go and work with homeless kids. I know that my time was well-spent. 

Real change takes real effort.

You seem to take the fact that some people choose to boycott specific stores because of their politics very personally. Nobody is attacking you for continuing to shop at Hobby Lobby. Why are you putting people down for voting with their wallet?

[formergothardite]

Saying, "I will try my best to not give my money to companies that are open about how they support oppression and who fund hate groups." is a meaningful action. Like I said earlier, it is extremely difficult to avoid giving any money to companies that cause harm, but we can do our bests. And if enough people stand up and say that they don't want their money to go and support companies that oppress others, then those companies will either change or close. 

The tuna boycott is a good example. People realized that the tuna companies were causing massive amounts of harm and the few people who started out boycotting turned into a large amount of people boycotting which forced the companies to adopt different fishing methods. Meaningful change can come when people decide they will pull their funds from companies that aren't doing good in this world. It won't happen over night, but it can happen if enough people join in. 

[HereticHick]

13 hours ago, Hisey said:

Real change takes real effort.

Ah, but smugness takes no effort at all.

If you don't approve of people boycotting businesses that they don't approve of, fine. But don't assume that those people do nothing else meaningful in their lives.

 

P.S. I, and many other people have long refused to purchase Ivanka Trump's products. Was that a wasted gesture? 

Did we, or did we not, drive that complicit harpie out of business?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

21 minutes ago, HereticHick said:

complicit harpie

If I ever need a username for another site I'm stealing this.

[SassyPants]

15 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Also, I found this old thread about the connection between the Green family and Gothard. 

 

Wasn't the group that dealt with Josh (during his hard labor, exile stage post the abuses) working on a building that was one of those facilities? Did I dream this?

[melon]

12 hours ago, OldFadedStar said:

What I find funny is that my father in law is vehemently opposed to Target due to their whole bathroom thing. Like, practically yelled at my mother in law in front of me for her buying gel pens there. He doesnt like them because they "are liberal and french"

Yet his favorite store ever is Amazon, in which Bezos has donated millions to LGBTQ equality, a few million to DACA recipients, and apparently one of the criteria for their new HQ is going to be a LGBTQ friendly state. 

My FIL is a very very conservative republican. To where when I mentioned that 99% of the worlds wealth is in the hands of 1% (or whatever that statistic is) his response was "And the problem with that is...?" 

It's not even worth the effort with him tbh. 

By the way, my baby registry is Target and I definitely had a "HAAA!!!" feeling when my MIL asked me where I was registering. I also love kinda showing off my target bags when im visiting them.  

My son's friend's father is opposed to Target.He will not shop there.If he receives a gift card from Target,he gives it away,

He doesn't approve a Target. 1) It's not American,as you said,it's French 2) Charities are not allowed to collect there,like mostly around the holiday season 3) He is a Veteran and claims Target doesn't support our troops. Well,why would they?

I don't share his opinion,at all.I prefer Target over Walmart.