Josie and Kelton 3: Living in the White Evangelical Bubble

[SassyPants]

2 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Why are you so obsessed all of a sudden with Josie?

Sometimes I think there's some psychological factor in play that allows people to jump (either consciously or subconsciously) to the following false conclusion, she's gorgeous, therefore she and her beliefs can't be caustic.

[Palimpsest]

On 11/23/2018 at 11:50 AM, Hisey said:

I doubt all 19 kids believe 100 percent of what their parents say. Some do, some don't. My point is, we can't blame Josie for her parents' beliefs. My beliefs are 180 degrees different from my own parents, and they did their best to indoctrinate me. Many people here can say the same.

Indeed.

And I think we all would like to think that there are a few Bates or Duggar kids who are secretly packing their mental bags and about to do a runner towards a less toxic brand of "Christianity."  Not liberalism, at least at first, that is too much to ask given their determined indoctrination, but perhaps they will get there in time.

If Josie is one of them, then I am not optimistic about her chances.  I think she picked the wrong lifeboat to jump into when she married Kelton.  And I make that judgement based on his appalling wedding story on the Knot, as well as on his Trump support. 

Of course, they could both break free.  I'm not holding my breath on it though.  I'm not seeing any signs - yet.

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

Sometimes I think there's some psychological factor in play that allows people to jump (either consciously or subconsciously) to the following false conclusion, she's gorgeous, therefore she and her beliefs can't be caustic.

Very true.  And (looks aside) having good taste in clothes doesn't mean having non-toxic beliefs.

There are also a few people who love playing devil's advocate just to be annoying.  

[DundeeUnFundie]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

Sometimes I think there's some psychological factor in play that allows people to jump (either consciously or subconsciously) to the following false conclusion, she's gorgeous, therefore she and her beliefs can't be caustic.

Agreed. It's apparently called 'the attractiveness halo'. If I remember correctly, its a big part of why attractive people end up being so popular in high school, and why if more attractive people are in trouble with school/law etc, they tend to get a slap on the wrist instead of proper punishments. ((Just realised I probably heard this the first time on the show 'Lie to Me', I miss that show!))

"Dubbed the ‘attractiveness halo’, people with more attractive faces are judged more positively on a host of dimensions."- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2811283/

[JingerSnaps]

I think when any of the 2nd generation like Alyssa or Josie make instant changes the moment the wedding dress comes off it does denote something, but not a change in beliefs. It shows they were dissatisfied in some way.  Unfortunately they see making a superficial change as something that is going to make it all better. I think we all do that to a certain extent... life would be great if I lost 10 lbs, changed jobs, got a better house, etc. And it works for awhile. Who doesn’t feel good for a moment after a new haircut or some other superficial change.

It takes a lot more self reflection to attribute your deep dissatisfaction with your fundamental belief system. The changes you have to make to fix that sort of dissatisfation can remove you from all the friends and family you have ever known. I truly hope they are strong enough to do that sort of reflection and do the changes they need to find true satisfaction in their life.  If they aren’t I hope they at least make their little changes as best they can and find some happiness and leave the next generation less damaged than they are.  

I still think these dissatisfied minor changer 2nd generation types are still better off than the Jill Rodriguez 2nd generation types that did not have the drive to make any changes. They are all still fundies and have awful beliefs, but I would much rather be Alyssa’s kid than Jill R’s kid. 

Sidenote: I am the child of two secretly agnostic parents that were raised in a 1950’s fundie church. (Not of the quiverful variety.) My aunts, uncles, and cousins run the gamut of skirt wearing fundies to full on atheists. My parents still have “I’m Job and God is punishing me” moments. We went to liberal Christian church when I was growing up for “social” reasons. Dad still sometimes lamented that the sermons were always about love. He sometimes wanted the fire and brimstone sermons of his childhood. I’ve watched them have a complicated relationship with religion and their families. Luckily they have no problems with my sister and me being atheists, however they prefer us to use the term agnostic. 

[Hisey]

3 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Sometimes I think there's some psychological factor in play that allows people to jump (either consciously or subconsciously) to the following false conclusion, she's gorgeous, therefore she and her beliefs can't be caustic.

I don't think she's gorgeous. (She's a nice looking kid, I suppose.)

I have no idea what she is thinking. I just choose to judge people by their actions, not by what their parents think.

Why would anyone assume an adolescent is going to think exactly the same as her parents? My own two adolescents strive to disagree with me on everything!

Judge people for themselves, not for what their parents think. 

 

[singsingsing]

25 minutes ago, Hisey said:

Judge people for themselves, not for what their parents think.

We are judging Josie for herself. We can't pretend she's a blank slate and is just as likely to be a liberal as a fundamentalist. That doesn't make any sense. Her parents have had an enormous influence on her. Her entire family and social circle adheres to a fundamentalist religion, lifestyle and worldview. Her fundamentalist family approved of her choice of spouse. She continues to support their agenda. She's showed exactly zero signs that she is deviating from fundamentalism. Of course we're going to assume she's still a fundie.

My parents are liberals. They raised me as a liberal. I grew up in a pretty liberal environment, most of the people around me were liberals. I moved out in my early 20s. Of course I don't share all of my parents' beliefs and opinions, but should people have assumed after I moved out that I was suddenly just as likely to be a conservative Christian as a liberal agnostic? Of course not. People would have been perfectly justified in assuming I was still a liberal agnostic until I gave them any reason to assume otherwise.

[formergothardite]

53 minutes ago, Hisey said:

Judge people for themselves, not for what their parents think.

But I am. So far Josie has chosen to marry a person who is a vocal supporter of a hateful, racist movement and she is continuing to be a part of a show that normalizes and sugar coats a hateful and dangerous movement. She is an active participant in making  patriarchy and awful religious beliefs look warm, cuddly and harmless. 

Based on choices Josie is making RIGHT NOW there is no indication she has left any fundie beliefs. In the future that may or may not change, but I'm basing this on what she is doing at this moment. 

Anyone know what church they are currently attending, that too will give us a sign on if she is changing her beliefs. 

[BernRul]

Maybe in the future Josie will move away from fundie beliefs (change that big is usually slow and involves a lot of things adding up rather than just one thing) but as of right now she's done nothing to indicate that she has. Marrying someone who vocally supports Trump is a big sign that she hasn't. 

[Hisey]

1 hour ago, singsingsing said:

My parents are liberals. They raised me as a liberal. I grew up in a pretty liberal environment, most of the people around me were liberals. I moved out in my early 20s.

Well, that's you. I think 100 percent opposite than my parents and their circle of friends. Thank God no one assumed I had my parents' hateful beliefs, just because I was raised in their home.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

5 minutes ago, Hisey said:

Well, that's you. I think 100 percent opposite than my parents and their circle of friends. Thank God no one assumed I had my parents' hateful beliefs, just because I was raised in their home.

They would have if you were on a TV show promoting those beliefs and had tons of followers on social media where you didn't say a word against the family's very public message.

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

But I am. So far Josie has chosen to marry a person who is a vocal supporter of a hateful, racist movement and she is continuing to be a part of a show that normalizes and sugar coats a hateful and dangerous movement. She is an active participant in making  patriarchy and awful religious beliefs look warm, cuddly and harmless. 

Based on choices Josie is making RIGHT NOW there is no indication she has left any fundie beliefs. In the future that may or may not change, but I'm basing this on what she is doing at this moment. 

Anyone know what church they are currently attending, that too will give us a sign on if she is changing her beliefs. 

I don’t think they’ve mentioned their Church. They seem to be very quiet about that sort of stuff and prefer to focus more on those sponsored ad (is that the right term?) type things. Kelton actually just posted one of those for watches - and yes, like his wife and sisters-in-law he didn’t specify that it was a sponsored ad. 

I do think I found the Church listed in his mother’s obituary though:

http://www.fbctaylors.org/

The family was living in South Carolina when she died. I’m pretty sure the Balkas are in Tennessee (I want to say Knoxville) now, so they likely haven’t had much to do with that Church since they moved. It’s been almost a decade since his mother passed, so I don’t know how helpful the website would be in providing a glimpse into what sort of beliefs he would have been exposed to at a young age. 

Kelton posted a photo of them that looked like they may have just come from Church back on a May 6th and tagged Lake City. I want to say that’s where the Bateses live, so he may have gone to Church with them while visiting or something. 

And finally, his sister (Ariana) posted in August about Kiersten (the youngest Balka) being baptized. She tagged the Church as Temple Baptist Church. I think this is their website:

http://templebaptistchurch.com/index.php

If she was baptized there then I’d assume that’s the Church his family has been attending, though I don’t know if Kelton and Josie attend as well. 

ETA: And I thought that Church sounded familiar. I think that’s the Church affiliated with Crown College. 

[singsingsing]

6 minutes ago, Hisey said:

Well, that's you. I think 100 percent opposite than my parents and their circle of friends. Thank God no one assumed I had my parents' hateful beliefs, just because I was raised in their home.

But that's not how life works. We have to make assumptions. We make assumptions every single day. If we didn't, we would never be able to do anything, we would be completely paralyzed and unable to live. If someone was once something, and they have showed you absolutely no reason to believe that they are not still that thing, it makes perfect sense, it is rational and probably advisable, to continue to assume that they are that thing.

That doesn't mean you write them off completely, treat them like shit, or assume it's impossible for them to change. It means that if my sister hates cheese and has given me no reason to assume she's suddenly developed a taste for it in the past year, I'm not going to serve her something with cheese in it the next time she comes to visit. It means that if the guy who was an asshole to me two months ago hasn't shown me any reason to think he's changed, I'm not going to invite him to my Christmas party. 

I'm willing to bet that you gave people a lot of reasons to assume that you didn't share your parents' hateful beliefs.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, singsingsing said:

if my sister hates cheese and has given me no reason to assume she's suddenly developed a taste for it in the past year, I'm not going to serve her something with cheese in it the next time she comes to visit.

This is such a great illustration and as a cheese-hater I endorse this so much. 

[formergothardite]

58 minutes ago, Hisey said:

Thank God no one assumed I had my parents' hateful beliefs, just because I was raised in their home.

Are you purposely ignoring that Josie is actively helping promote and sugar coat her parents hateful beliefs? Why is this a thing you won't address? The Josie that exists at this exact moment isn't showing signs of backing away from trying to make really awful beliefs look harmless and cuddly. 

I'm assuming you aren't out promoting your parents' hateful beliefs like Josie is?

 

[TeaELSee]

17 hours ago, Hisey said:

Why would anyone assume an adolescent is going to think exactly the same as her parents? My own two adolescents strive to disagree with me on everything!

She married someone with the same belief system as her parents. He went to Pensacola Christian college, which is a pretty hard core fundie school and proudly voted for Trump.

This was Josie’s choice, it speaks volumes.

[Shouldabeenacowboy]

In general, I give people the benefit of the doubt - eg don't make assumptions, until they have made their intent, beliefs, and thoughts known. 

In the case of Duggar/Bates/other fundies we discuss on FJ however, I assume they hold their parents' horrific beliefs until they confirm otherwise. 

[formergothardite]

As long as they participate in promoting the beliefs of their parents I'm going to assume they still don't have an issue with those beliefs.

[SassyPants]

22 hours ago, Hisey said:

I don't think she's gorgeous. (She's a nice looking kid, I suppose.)

I have no idea what she is thinking. I just choose to judge people by their actions, not by what their parents think.

Why would anyone assume an adolescent is going to think exactly the same as her parents? My own two adolescents strive to disagree with me on everything!

Judge people for themselves, not for what their parents think. 

 

Because these people were not raised to think or reason for themselves. They were raised to believe exactly what their parents instructed. They were not provided with the opportunities to make age appropriate decisions and deal with the consequences  of such. Basically, they are infants in terms of problem solving, reasoning  and logic. I’d say the Duggars are even further stunted, as the Bates are in school and have jobs outside the group think compound.

[kmachete14]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

Because these people were not raised to think or reason for themselves. They were raised to believe exactly what their parents instructed. They were not provided with the opportunities to make age appropriate decisions and deal with the consequences  of such. Basically, they are infants in terms of problem solving, reasoning  and logic. I’d say the Duggars are even further stunted, as the Bates are in school and have jobs outside the group think compound.

This exactly! 

These kids did not go to public school where they were confronted with different belief systems or learned unbiased history. They did not go to college where professors taught them different beliefs/ideas/politics. They have not been taught to see both sides of an issue and debate it, only been feed party lines and fake science. They do not know how to read a scientific article and glean information from it, but instead taught to fear any science that is not from a pastor's or daddy's mouth.  Their social lives have been curated to only include those their parents approve of, which are people who aren't much different from them and deemed "safe." This is why it's only logical to assume they haven't greatly changed their beliefs or do not greatly disagree with their parents' theology. They may have some slight doubts, but probably pray that they go away! 

This is not the same as "oh my parents were Catholic but slowly stop believing and then I went to college and realized most of it was BS" or "I used to think gay marriage was wrong because my church said it was but then I met a gay person in high school and we became friends and I realized they deserve love too." 

For Josie, there is no real college, no possible gay friends, no adequate research material via internet or textbooks, no one making her actively challenge her beliefs. 

[formergothardite]

Josie is in her bubble and while she may start questioning things at some point, but judging by what she is doing right now, it doesn't appear that she has questioned much. She might never go past dropping skirts only and raise her own children in an environment of patriarchy, fundie beliefs and racism. 

[Blessings of the Corn]

I will say - it took me YEARS to figure out what I believed on my own. I towed the party line, went to a small Christian college, married very young ( that didn't last), and had, now that I look back, rather hateful ideas towards all kind of people. I honestly thought I was right and it wasn't until I started to experience life and meet folks from other walks of life that I began to truly question my beliefs. Even if some of these "adult" fundies are questioning we may never know. It's terrifying to realize that you may not belief something that your WHOLE life is based on. I mostly consider myself an atheist these days, but I am still always searching for what is true and I am not out my family b/c it's not worth the drama it would cause at this point in time ( I hope I can eventually change that). Just because someone gets married and leaves their family home doesn't mean they are truly "adults" and automatically know how to think for themselves, especially with their levels of brainwashing. 19 is so very young. My life was no where near as insular as these young people and it still took me years to deconstruct and rebuild myself. I

[Italiangirl]

i sometimes wonder if it is better for these kids to marry young and be out of the house early so they could at least have the possibility to meet some other people outside their family and social group, lie in a different church or something, or if it is better to stay at home a little bit more and realize how much their families are sheltering them, if it is even possible by doing always the same thing. I really hope some of them could at least move to a little less strict environment and then slowly break free or at least freier then when they waas at home

[LillyP]

23 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Because these people were not raised to think or reason for themselves. They were raised to believe exactly what their parents instructed. They were not provided with the opportunities to make age appropriate decisions and deal with the consequences  of such. Basically, they are infants in terms of problem solving, reasoning  and logic. I’d say the Duggars are even further stunted, as the Bates are in school and have jobs outside the group think compound.

Yes to all of this!

I think so many people forget that these kids were raised to have those beliefs drilled into them from birth. For as "worldly" as we all perceive them to be because they mostly dress mainstream these days and travel, they are not worldly people. They only know what they've been taught and it's just not realistic to think they could change their way of thinking overnight or even in a few years. Changing those kinds of deep-rooted beliefs can take YEARS. Are we to assume the all the kids believe what they were taught? Yeah because as of now none of them have publicly shown anything different. All that being said even if they did change their way of thinking I don't think for one minute you'd see them post publicly about it. They are too tied together to publicly go against the grain of their family. 

[eleanora3]

Excited for incoming wedding pics!

[Vivi_music]

The third picture with the bridesmaids in their dressing gown... I mean they are all beautiful ladies but it feels so weird. Like they really had to hold these smiles for a while.