Mr & Mrs Jill Duggar 60: The Shilling Dillards

[KelseyAnn]

2 hours ago, treehugger said:

I'm annoyed that, in a conversation about whether an adult women should be allowed to meet one on one with an adult male as equals and co-workers, there are people bringing up teacher/student and doctor/patient relationships. They are not the same fucking thing. A teacher is in a position of incredible authority over usually under aged students who are, by nature of the huge power imbalance and age difference, vulnerable.  I have had a male doctor, and he only called in a nurse when he had to do a pelvic exam - again, when I would be in a vulnerable position. 

If I want to meet with my pastor, I should be able to do so without another woman in the room. If I need to talk to my boss, or want to hang out with a co-worker. Same thing. 

But could it not be argued that a male boss or a supervisor is also in a position of a power and in danger of being accused of using it inappropriately? The same thing with a pastor- who is in a position of authority of his congregants? 

Isn't kind of a catch-22 to expect men and women in power to avoid being accused but also want them to not take any precautions to prevent those accusations? 

What's wrong with an open door policy? Or blinds always being open in an office. 

[justoneoftwo]

2 minutes ago, KelseyAnn said:

 

What's wrong with an open door policy? Or blinds always being open in an office. 

Whats wrong with an open door policy in these situations is that when you contact your pastor its emotional, so why would you want everyone to be able to see that?  Or when you give performance reviews its not unheard of for people to cry, but should everyone in the office see that?  Privacy is important.  I agree people should be able to try to avoid accusations, and that false ones do happen.  But we also need to be able to talk in private for many many reasons.

[KelseyAnn]

1 minute ago, justoneoftwo said:

Whats wrong with an open door policy in these situations is that when you contact your pastor its emotional, so why would you want everyone to be able to see that?  Or when you give performance reviews its not unheard of for people to cry, but should everyone in the office see that?  Privacy is important.  I agree people should be able to try to avoid accusations, and that false ones do happen.  But we also need to be able to talk in private for many many reasons.

I get that, I do, but it just doesn't seem fair in my opinion to expect that men and women in power have absolutely no programs/systems in place to protect themselves. That just seems as if everybody is being set up to fail.

I'm not sure what, but there needs to be someway to ensure the safety and reputation of all parties involved when it comes to things like this. 

[justoneoftwo]

3 minutes ago, KelseyAnn said:

I get that, I do, but it just doesn't seem fair in my opinion to expect that men and women in power have absolutely no programs/systems in place to protect themselves. That just seems as if everybody is being set up to fail.

I'm not sure what, but there needs to be someway to ensure the safety and reputation of all parties involved when it comes to things like this. 

I agree with you, there needs to be something to protect them as well, but not allowing any privacy is not the answer, it limits too many things.  

[Lisafer]

8 minutes ago, KelseyAnn said:

But could it not be argued that a male boss or a supervisor is also in a position of a power and in danger of being accused of using it inappropriately? The same thing with a pastor- who is in a position of authority of his congregants? 

Isn't kind of a catch-22 to expect men and women in power to avoid being accused but also want them to not take any precautions to prevent those accusations? 

What's wrong with an open door policy? Or blinds always being open in an office. 

I don't "expect people to avoid being accused." I expect them not to do bad things. These are two different issues. 

And sure, enforce a no alone time rule if that floats your boat. But enforce it with everybody to avoid discrimination. No being alone with women; no being alone with men either, then. 

[KelseyAnn]

1 minute ago, Lisafer said:

But enforce it with everybody to avoid discrimination. No being alone with women; no being alone with men either, then. 

 

That actually seems like the best policy, and idk why everyone isn't doing such at the moment. 

[Lisafer]

If I can figure out how to link it from my phone, the Harvard Business Review has a fantastic article on the problems with this rule: https://hbr.org/2017/05/men-shouldnt-refuse-to-be-alone-with-female-colleagues

[treehugger]

You guys, do people seriously think that the power imbalance between my hypothetical male boss and myself, is even remotely comparable to me lying spread-eagle and partially naked on an examination table while my doctor performs a pelvic exam? Rufus stop the planet, I need to get off. 

These are Canadians statistics, but hopefully they will explain why I don't give a flying fuck about how men who refuse to treat women as equals feel about being falsely accused. They freak out about their jobs and reputations, while denying countless women the same jobs and opportunities as their fellow men. Approximately 3.3% of all assaults actually are reported to the police, so the chances of being falsely accused of sexual harassment and having it actually affect you are vanishingly rare. And, should that minuscule chance actually become your reality, and it actually affect your career and life, as a man, it's unfortunate. But it is nothing that large numbers of women don't deal with every bloody day. And yes, good Christian men like Pencey boy and his cronies are the worst at viewing women as walking sex toys. 

[Kittikatz]

I honestly think the Billy Graham rule can be quite discriminatory. It curbs the ability of two people to have an open and honest conversation, which can have significant negative impacts on any relationship.

I also think that it's based on the idea that sexual desire is at the root of sexual misconduct, which isn't always - or even mostly - the case. I believe that for some predators, the motivation for them being sexually inappropriate is similar to the motivation of many rapists - exercising power/exerting control over others.  

I've definitely been subject to unwanted advances and sexually inappropriate comments/behavior from people who were/are "powerful" in my life. Some were probably signalling - badly - that they found me attractive (like the politician who asked me to sit on his lap while he reviewed a document), but most were signalling that they were more powerful than me (like the cop who's idea of frisking women was a full on hand-inside-panties-vag-grope, or the doctor who turned checking for lumps into an extended fondle).

My last boss was a straight woman. It didn't stop her from running her fingers though my hair, commenting on my breasts/looks/making comments about what she imagined my sex life was. I know she wasn't attracted to me sexually, but I noticed that her behavior escalated during times when she felt less powerful in her personal/work life. She made these comments when we were alone and also when we were in meetings with groups of people. As long as she was the most highly ranked person in the room, she did as she liked. None of us dared say anything, because if we had, that would have been the end of our careers - not just our jobs. 

I'm not sure that any one 'rule' can protect people from others being inappropriate. People who are predators or want to assert dominance over others through sexually inappropriate comments or behavior will find a way. A better tactic may be for organizations to have policies limiting physical touch, requests or demands for physical touch and even making comments/conversation regarding certain topics - such as someone's physical attributes or appearance out of bounds. I don't know. It's a complicated issue, and I have no idea how to address it.

 

[Lisafer]

40 minutes ago, treehugger said:

You guys, do people seriously think that the power imbalance between my hypothetical male boss and myself, is even remotely comparable to me lying spread-eagle and partially naked on an examination table while my doctor performs a pelvic exam? Rufus stop the planet, I need to get off. 

These are Canadians statistics, but hopefully they will explain why I don't give a flying fuck about how men who refuse to treat women as equals feel about being falsely accused. They freak out about their jobs and reputations, while denying countless women the same jobs and opportunities as their fellow men. Approximately 3.3% of all assaults actually are reported to the police, so the chances of being falsely accused of sexual harassment and having it actually affect you are vanishingly rare. And, should that minuscule chance actually become your reality, and it actually affect your career and life, as a man, it's unfortunate. But it is nothing that large numbers of women don't deal with every bloody day. And yes, good Christian men like Pencey boy and his cronies are the worst at viewing women as walking sex toys. 

 

I found myself very puzzled by these last few pages of discussion as well. And yes, these powerful males who are more concerned about their reputations than gender disparity can take their precious "good name" and shove it right up the wazoo.

[mpheels]

My field is predominantly women (graduate program was 90% women), but due to nature of my content area and research specialization, my closest mentors and research partners are men. I routinely meet with them 1-on-1, behind closed doors, and in groups where I’m the only woman. I have never once felt harassed, marginalized, or otherwise diminished by our interactions. We all treat each other as professional peers when it comes to work matters, and many of us have genuine friendships outside of work. I don’t want to suggest that sexual harassment never happens in my field - it absolutely does, but the tolerance for it is incredibly low. I’ve heard male colleagues call each other out in public for joking about the physical appearance of celebrities. Amazingly, men can learn to view and treat women a human beings with value beyond appearance and reproduction if their parents, teachers, and/or professional mentors place value on it. 

[candygirl200413]

My other thing about this rule is that even with other people in the room you can still do something so some guys are just creepy/feeling powerful that they don't even care about what the situation is. 

[HarryPotterFan]

17 minutes ago, candygirl200413 said:

My other thing about this rule is that even with other people in the room you can still do something so some guys are just creepy/feeling powerful that they don't even care about what the situation is. 

Exactly!! I was sexually assaulted in a brightly light classroom between classes when I was 12!! Recently I went to a dinner and this guy wouldn’t leave me alone and kept trying to force me to hug him. The third time he did it I just walked away instead of trying to grin and bear it. Again, people everywhere. If someone really wants to harass someone else or is just creepy, they’ll do it regardless of the presence of others. And people around you don’t say shit.

[luv2laugh]

Does this picture come across as “off” for anyone else or is it just me? 

 

[Chewing Gum]

Meh, I don’t see anything to it. If my kids spill water they’d have to clean it up, best that they know how. Don’t see any difference with wall writing. He doesn’t seem too distressed about it?

[VeryNikeSeamstress]

That picture kind of reminds me of these:

https://barkpost.com/humor/ultimate-dogshaming/

Except it's neither cute nor funny.

I'm not saying Israel isn't a cute kid. Given the family's vocal support of blankets and wooden spoons, I see this and feel sad/concerned for what else could've happened that wasn't shared on instagram.

[tabitha2]

Just a Kid cleaning up what he did. Not everything is that sinister or full of meaning. 

[nastyhobbitses]

1 hour ago, Chewing Gum said:

Meh, I don’t see anything to it. If my kids spill water they’d have to clean it up, best that they know how. Don’t see any difference with wall writing. He doesn’t seem too distressed about it?

I mean, I wouldn't document it with photos for the world to see (maybe a photo for the family photo album, if that), but I don't see anything wrong with teaching a kid to take responsibility for their actions. You make a mess, you clean it up. Three is around the time when it's appropriate to teach that, IMO. 

[acheronbeach]

2 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

Does this picture come across as “off” for anyone else or is it just me? 

 

Par for the course in Dillard land, IMO.  Israel looking anxious/dejected is pretty much a constant.

[VelociRapture]

6 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

Does this picture come across as “off” for anyone else or is it just me? 

 

I probably wouldn’t photograph it, but I don’t see anything wrong or sinister with teaching him he needs to clean up a mess he made. He’s old enough to properly learn his actions have consequences now and this is an appropriate consequence for this particular action. 

[littlemommy]

If a friend of mine posted that online I’d give it a “haha, we’ve all been there!”

Because every parent has. I was, however, uncomfortable with the friend that posted a picture of pen drawings on her car upholstery and asked “Should I spank him?” No way am I participating in an online poll about whether your kid gets spanked or not. 

[HarleyQuinn]

I guess the first thing that came to mind for me was "he probably got a beating before that photo was taken." 

[singsingsing]

1 hour ago, HarleyQuinn said:

I guess the first thing that came to mind for me was "he probably got a beating before that photo was taken." 

Why people are catching flack for speculating about this is kind of beyond me. Jill was raised with the Pearl method of discipline, and we've seen that Derick is very much in favour of kids being beaten with wooden spoons. I think it's hoping too much to think that they're not using corporal punishment on their own kids.

[Ali]

I see nothing wrong with making a child clean up a mess he or she made intentionally. I have made my two year old clean up food and water he spilled intentionally on the floor. I would not take a picture of it and post it on social media.

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, singsingsing said:

Why people are catching flack for speculating about this is kind of beyond me. Jill was raised with the Pearl method of discipline, and we've seen that Derick is very much in favour of kids being beaten with wooden spoons. I think it's hoping too much to think that they're not using corporal punishment on their own kids.

I don’t necessarily think it’s a given he was physically disciplined for this, but I think there’s enough evidence to suggest it’s at least a possibility. I also don’t think it’s wrong to teach him to clean up any messes he makes - though, again, I wouldn’t have photographed the moment if it were my kid. 

I think this is another classic case of Jill Dillard being Jill Dillard on social media - tone deaf and awkward.