Willis Family 3: Toby Is Evil

[feministxtian]

51 minutes ago, Hisey said:

No one said it would be easy for her to leave. But it's not easy to be raped when you are five, either. Personally, I always do the hard things, so my kids don't have to.

Self-righteous much? Leaving an abuser is hard on EVERYONE including the children. Some of us (including the kids) are STILL dealing with the shit 20+ years later. 

If you haven't lived it, please do me a favor and STFU. On the other hand, if you want to know how it is when you're trying to leave and your abuser snatches your 6 month old baby out of your arms or later, pulls your 3 year old out of the car and tells you "you can leave with the other 2 they're not mine but you're not taking my son", or later is sitting in the parking lot of your workplace staring into the CCTV camera smiling and showing off a gun, let me know. Do you know what it's like when your X calls your workplace 800 miles away to tell them that he KNOWS you use drugs and should be fired? You don't? STFU 

[Gobsmacked]

Maybe Hisey is in an abusive relationship situation but hasn't acknowledged it yet. This thread is possibly wakening  her up to her situation and making her feel uncomfortable. 

[AliceInFundyland]

@Gobsmacked This is not the first time she has defended her parenting choices as being morally superior. Really. Adoption. SAHMs. There wouldn’t be this much pushback without some history.

[Hisey]

I grew up in a DV situation, and saw how terrifying it was for my mother (and us kids). There was no sexual abuse, but there was constant violence.

When she finally left, she had to go into hiding. She was in genuine danger every time she went to court —once the judge ordered her police protection.

We were all grown by the time she left.

Even she admitted she should have left much sooner.

The reasons she stayed are a complex mixture of fear, learned helplessness, and unwillingness to be a divorcee.

And that’s my point—it’s a complex mixture of good and bad. 

Living in fear and violence irrevocably damaged my life and the lives of my siblings. 

It’s wrong to say the Brendas of this world have no choice. It’s better to empower them to have the strength to make the right choices.

 

Edited December 23, 2018 by Hisey

[Gobsmacked]

So you shouldn't be so awful about Brenda then Hisey. Other posters have suggested you are a Troll. If what you say about your mother is true then I suggest you leave this thread for your own sanity and get help ASAP for your (possible) post trauma problems. 

[feministxtian]

5 minutes ago, Hisey said:

I grew up in a DV situation, and saw how terrifying it was for my mother (and us kids).

When she finally left, she had to go into hiding. She was in genuine danger every time she went to court —once the judge ordered her police protection.

We were all grown by the time she left.

Even she admitted she should have left much sooner.

You sound like my children who, to this day, claim the "moral high ground". They don't know 1% of what I went through and I will never tell them. So, you keep on walking down your road of moral superiority and how you'd NEVER go through what your mom went through. Have at it dear...You'll never know the whole story and if you're anything like my kids, you wouldn't listen to it anyway. I get it, its ALL mom's fault for not getting out sooner. I wish I had gotten out sooner but then again, staying to defend my children and assure that I'd get to take my youngest with me was more important. 

I had a psycho X too. The reason I moved back to my hometown. That didn't stop him. The shit continued until my youngest turned 18 and I could then refuse to have any contact with him. He's still spreading his bullshit about me, 20+ years after the divorce. These people are pathological. They can't EVER admit they fucked up. NOTHING is ever their fault, and the children learn at "daddy's" knee that mommy is not worthy of respect. So, keep on talking bullshit dear, keep on talking. 

[HurricaneBells]

Just leave. Because.its just.that.simple. The woman had to a) put up with abuse and fear on the daily with all of their lives under threat (And he is pretty fucking intimidating) b) had 12 children c) 12 children including how many teenage boys. Where the hell would she go? I can't speak for the US but it is incredibly hard to get into a shelter considering b & c here in Australia. Putting a roof over 13 heads and food in 13 mouths with all of the other expenses and processes of life just can't be done overnight not to mention some of these fuckers, as mentioned, don't just slink away and leave you in peace. If anything you are in more danger at that time. In the words of the wise Cathy Dillard... a lot of assumptions are being made here.

Edited December 23, 2018 by HurricaneBells
Spelling

[BarnGirl]

Longtime lurker here. 

Has anyone been keeping up with Jessica's blog? I feel like her posts are so perceptive - it's clear she's embraced recovery work. Thought this was a pretty powerful one...

https://www.jessicawillisfisher.com/blog/when-choosing-happiness-is-the-wrong-advice

[Black Aliss]

On 12/21/2018 at 6:01 PM, Hisey said:

 

It may not be pleasant to hear this but, what about the ugly side of things? What if Brenda wanted to stay married more than she cared about her kids? What if she liked the lifestyle? What if she convinced herself that Toby's physical abuse of the kids was really just "discipline"? What if she is narcissistic or has an unhealthy bond with Toby, that led her to chose him over her kids. 

What if, like someone I know well, Toby told her that if she dared to leave him he'd see to it that she never saw her kids alive again? What if she loved her kids too much to take the chance that he was just bluffing. Men do kill their own children, usually as part of a murder-suicide, sometimes just for the sick pleasure of taking something from their wives.

[Four is Enough]

I am certain that Toby both made threats and controlled every penny. After all, a good submissive wife asks for money and accounts for every cent spent... it would not have been possible for Brenda to leave without tipping him off.

[refugee]

On 12/16/2018 at 4:29 PM, Hisey said:

wouldn't insult Brenda by saying she had no choices, like a child. Jeez, she ignored a letter that Jessica wrote her years ago, telling her mom she was being r*ed and asking for help. Brenda also watched Toby beat Jessica, and when the police arrived, allowed Jessica to hide so the police wouldn't see her bruises and blood. She hid her husband's abuse from the cops!

 If a mandated reporter did these things, they'd go to jail

Wait, I’m confused. I went to the link someone posted for Jessica’s blog and read her story. It doesn’t say anything about writing a letter “years ago” as a child but at age 23, and the beating/hiding she describes also happened when she was 23.

She also describes a family that was terrorized by the father, and that the TN law enforcement was seriously concerned about the possibility of homicidal violence in extricating the mom and kids from Toby’s grasp.

Did I miss some facet of the story where Jessica told her mother everything at age 9 (not sure where “age 9” comes from, but it is stuck in my brain from reading some comment or other)? She says in her narrative on the blog that she didn’t even have the words to describe what had happened to her until after she left, at 23 or 24.

Edited January 13, 2019 by refugee
Clarification

[Briefly]

2 hours ago, refugee said:

Wait, I’m confused. I went to the link someone posted for Jessica’s blog and read her story. It doesn’t say anything about writing a letter “years ago” as a child but at age 23, and the beating/hiding she describes also happened when she was 23.

She also describes a family that was terrorized by the father, and that the TN law enforcement was seriously concerned about the possibility of homicidal violence in extricating the mom and kids from Toby’s grasp.

Did I miss some facet of the story where Jessica told her mother everything at age 9 (not sure where “age 9” comes from, but it is stuck in my brain from reading some comment or other)? She says in her narrative on the blog that she didn’t even have the words to describe what had happened to her until after she left, at 23 or 24.

I have not read her blog, but could she have meant that she was not able to really talk about it in detail until she was 23 or so?  Not that she couldn't talk about it earlier, but to really be able to explain it and express her feelings until she had a few years to learn to deal with it.  I am speaking from experience here.

[clueliss]

Looks Iike there band is ending 

 

[punkiepie]

3 hours ago, clueliss said:

Looks Iike there band is ending 

 

What I found interesting is that Jet is the only female Willis sibling that follows Jair.

[Hisey]

On 1/10/2019 at 8:37 PM, Black Aliss said:

What if, like someone I know well, Toby told her that if she dared to leave him he'd see to it that she never saw her kids alive again? What if she loved her kids too much to take the chance that he was just bluffing.

Yes, I know someone who experienced this also. It happens.

The point is, Jessica is likely to feel angry at her mother at some point in her recovery. She has a right to feel this way! It is really destructive to invalidate her by saying, "Your mother had no choice" or "Your mother was scared, don't be angry at her." 

If Jessica came here and reads all these excuses for Brenda, it would invalidate her experience. She had a mother who didn't protect her, and she has a right to be angry. It just adds to Jessica's trauma to have the world offering excuses for Brenda's behavior. I wouldn't do it. 

[Black Aliss]

9 hours ago, Hisey said:

Yes, I know someone who experienced this also. It happens.

The point is, Jessica is likely to feel angry at her mother at some point in her recovery. She has a right to feel this way! It is really destructive to invalidate her by saying, "Your mother had no choice" or "Your mother was scared, don't be angry at her." 

If Jessica came here and reads all these excuses for Brenda, it would invalidate her experience. She had a mother who didn't protect her, and she has a right to be angry. It just adds to Jessica's trauma to have the world offering excuses for Brenda's behavior. I wouldn't do it. 

Explanations, even hypothetical explanations, are not excuses. It was not my intent to make excuses for Brenda, although I acknowledge that my post could be taken that way. Nor would I ever want to do anything to cause further trauma to any of the Willis offspring.

[clueliss]

Jair Willis got married per Instagram photos, complete with this Nike bit I snapped for stories (on multiple Willis fam accounts)

Spoiler

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

4 minutes ago, clueliss said:

Jair Willis got married per Instagram photos, complete with this Nike bit I snapped for stories (on multiple Willis fam accounts)

  Hide contents

 

The Willis boys have a thing for being shirtless. They are shirtless a lot. 

[BarnGirl]

The oldest girl launched a kickstarter

[amendgitan]

On 2/22/2019 at 11:22 PM, Hisey said:

Yes, I know someone who experienced this also. It happens.

The point is, Jessica is likely to feel angry at her mother at some point in her recovery. She has a right to feel this way! It is really destructive to invalidate her by saying, "Your mother had no choice" or "Your mother was scared, don't be angry at her." 

If Jessica came here and reads all these excuses for Brenda, it would invalidate her experience. She had a mother who didn't protect her, and she has a right to be angry. It just adds to Jessica's trauma to have the world offering excuses for Brenda's behavior. I wouldn't do it. 

I wonder how she feels today about her mom. I know this is an older topic and I don't want to dredge up bad feelings but an interview the other adult kids did came up as a YouTube suggestion for me and made me want to see how things are going and recall what happened. 

I represent DV victims and do realize how hard it is to leave. We don't have hard and fast evidence that Brenda was a victim of abuse but it's a fair assumption to make. 

However there are things worse than fear and sometimes things worse than death, even. Children allowed to be repeatedly raped and beaten can destroy them psychologically in ways that are super difficult to ever recover fully from. I speak from experience when it comes to physical abuse. I live as if the world is dangerous. I walk often with shoulders hunched automatically. Maybe habit from bracing for a blow. I'm tough and a survivor but navigating life is always a war for me. Most people don't know that about me. They see me as a warrior and a fighter, which I am. But they don't see the endless, exhausting struggle.  

It is thus hard for me to totally excuse a mom who knew and saw. I mean yes it's complex and difficult and I understand that and see it with my clients and saw it in my own life but as you said, 38 has much more power than 5. Someone has to protect 5. 

In this case Brenda undoubtedly knew, per Jessica. Jessica's blog says that at age 9 her mom asked vague questions that she answered which led to her mom yelling at her dad and her dad denying and then becoming more secretive about his abuse. To me a logical assumption is mom asked vague questions about him touching her in ways she didn't like. Or did dad touch you type of questions. And at 9, the answers were enough for mom to yell and accuse. 

But not enough to leave or at least to continually question and make  sure it wasn't happening again. 

Then she talks about coming to the trailer and her mom and several kids crying together and she knew it had happened again. And again no steps were taken. 

Then came the 14 page letter at age 23 detailing it graphically. Mom again confronted and yelled at dad. But again she didn't leave with her kids. Didn't call the police. So she wasn't too scared not to confront him or to yell at him. But she still didn't leave. 

But let's put all that aside. Forget that. Here's what no one has mentioned that is truly upsetting to me:

After being beaten on one day and then flogged by her father on the next, Jessica determined and stated she was leaving. Her dad threatened her. But worse: "My mother and siblings made religious and emotional appeals."

Forget that her mom didn't rescue her kids. Her daughter managed to flee but maybe mom was too beaten down to do so or it would've been much harder with so many kids.  

Ok.

But then she made religious and emotional appeals to her abused daughter to stay. After everything was undeniably out in the open.

That's where I indeed have a problem. 

I wonder if Jessica does too. 

 

I'm glad to see she's still here, she has a nice marriage hopefully and she's still making music. I don't see her with her family much. And I thought I saw a flicker of something in the sibling interviews when the account of her finally escaping and telling  came out. Like resentment maybe. 

Does anyone know if she still has a lot of contact with her family? 

And what happened with her kickstarter campaign? 

I hope this family heals and can support and forgive one another. Understanding and forgiveness can be a major part of the healing process but so is accountability from those who acted or failed to act. 

[AnnaSofia]

7 hours ago, amendgitan said:

 

After being beaten on one day and then flogged by her father on the next, Jessica determined and stated she was leaving. Her dad threatened her. But worse: "My mother and siblings made religious and emotional appeals."

Forget that her mom didn't rescue her kids. Her daughter managed to flee but maybe mom was too beaten down to do so or it would've been much harder with so many kids.  

Ok.

But then she made religious and emotional appeals to her abused daughter to stay. After everything was undeniably out in the open.

That's where I indeed have a problem. 

 

I keep coming back to the religious aspects of this (and other cases).

One of the biggest issues I have with patriarchal Christianity is just how easy it makes things for abusers. I'm not saying that every such family is abusive, and I'm certainly not saying that abuse doesn't happen in all walks of life (it VERY much does) but here the entire culture is tailor-made for it. Isolation, father worship, female submissiveness, financial and identity abuse, not to mention simply having so many children than fleeing a dangerous situation just isn't remotely feasible.

And at the risk of victim blaming, I DO place some responsibility on the women who willingly enter in to it, and worse, believe it's their place to act as an example for others. I know relatively little about Brenda Willis, so this isn't specific to her, but how many of the fundie moms-of-many we discuss on FJ insist they don't need any sort of career/education/financial backup plan in the event something should happen to/with their spouse? It's always put forth as a show of faith, "trusting in the will of god". In reality, it's a form of arrogance. It won't happen to ME. I FOLLOWED ALL THE RULES. Those divorced women? They just didn't try hard enough, they weren't submissive enough, they didn't revere their husbands enough. Abuse within the family? Clearly they're not living Biblically , or it wouldn't happen. Anyone who cautions them about the vulnerability inherent to their lifestyle is a heathen or a hater who doesn't understand that they are god's chosen ones.

You can be both a victim and an abuser. Vyckie Garrison is a good example. Entering that lifestyle IS a choice for many women, even as they passively aggressively insist that they're simply obeying their husbands, as god intended. And that choice GREATLY affects their children. I can't let them off the hook for that. You can't simply cede your responsibilities as an adult under the guise of "biblical submission".

 

Edited September 6, 2019 by AnnaSofia