Willis Family 3: Toby Is Evil

[Lurky]

I'm pretty sure, reading between the lines that he was physically abusing Brenda - and didn't one of the daughters say Brenda was legitimately scared Toby would kill some of the children if she tried to leave? 

I think it's important to remember that while they were public figures with the shows and the TV, Toby had also kept them all incredibly isolated, without friends etc, so Brenda didn't have any kind of support system.  There has always been a subsection of FJers who seem to hold Brenda as accountable as Toby, and I just don't think that's fair.  And remember, this isn't someone who could put 3 kids into a car and drive away - the mega-family aspect of it was another way for Toby to keep his wife and kids imprisoned and controlled.

[Hisey]

5 hours ago, Lurky said:

There has always been a subsection of FJers who seem to hold Brenda as accountable as Toby, and I just don't think that's fair.  And remember, this isn't someone who could put 3 kids into a car and drive away

Certainly she's not as accountable as Toby! She didn't rape anyone.

Of course she could put 3 kids in a car and drive away. She could do that back when she had 3 kids. She either a) chose to have more kids, or b) chose to stay with him back when she had only 3.

Women are not helpless children. They have choices. Admittedly, her choices were more limited than mine are. But I assume she knew how to use a phone. I doubt her five-year old did. I assume she knew how to drive. I doubt her small children did.

I can assume Brenda was abused, but it's really just an assumption. There are no police records to prove it for sure. It's just an assumption on my part. As for Jessica, I feel for her. She so clearly wants to see her mom as 100% innocent. I'd suggest it's more complicated than that. 

As I said, I've known women who left violent husbands once the husbands started abusing the kids. The moms and kids lived in shelters, where they were safe. They had the same worries that Brenda did, but they left anyway. I'll bet Jessica wishes her mom had done that.

It may not be pleasant to hear this but, what about the ugly side of things? What if Brenda wanted to stay married more than she cared about her kids? What if she liked the lifestyle? What if she convinced herself that Toby's physical abuse of the kids was really just "discipline"? What if she is narcissistic or has an unhealthy bond with Toby, that led her to chose him over her kids. 

Again, most women would live in the streets and be homeless to protect their kids from a rapist father. What caused her to be different? It's a reasonable question--and much more realistic than the simplistic notion that she was a helpless victim like her kids.

 

[Beermeet]

On 7/16/2018 at 7:35 AM, DillyDally said:

Jenny got married, some pictures can be found on the Facebook page of their wedding location: https://www.facebook.com/FiveStarRetreat/ and on the keepingupwithfundies tumblr.

Sneak peak:

Wow! Her dress, bouquet and hair are perfection in my eyes! I need to redo my wedding look somehow.  Beautiful and earthy. Good for her. Blessings. 

[AliceInFundyland]

@Hisey As I understand it, part of Toby’s grooming process was to keep all the daughters somewhat isolated from each other. So none totally knew what was happening till the end. He is a Massive User of Fear and Pain and Threats. Oldest children feel protective over the littles. Brothers over sisters. And with everything we read and understand about Christian patriarchy...how do you think Mom Willis really can just hop up and leave? Why does everyone think this is “what they would do” and it’s what most women would do? It is not always that easy. No, just no. Jump back in your delusional hole and shove off.

[Hisey]

1 hour ago, AliceInFundyland said:

No, just no. Jump back in your delusional hole and shove off.

You don't have to get angry, Alice. You can defend Toby's enabler if you want to. 

Bear in mind, though, that if Brenda were not their mother, she'd go to jail for what she did.  She'd be the accessory to a crime. Lucky for her, she's their mom--it's OK to look away. When your little girl writes you a letter explaining she's being raped, it's OK to ignore it. There will be no repercussions.

What would you do if YOUR little girl wrote you a letter, saying your violent husband was raping her? Would you ignore her and continue to have 8 more kids? I doubt it.

There ARE women who leave. I admire them. I have empathy for Brenda, but I don't think she had "no choice."

 

Edited December 22, 2018 by Hisey

[AliceInFundyland]

You are a shit stirring troll in a week where there has been too much of it.

Someone else can deal with you.

 

[Lurky]

@Hisey Blaming Brenda because she didn't psychically know in advance what Toby would do?  You are absolutely vile.  I actually hope  @AliceInFundyland is right and you are a shit-stirring troll, because I would hate to think anyone you know in real life would ever tell you they were being abused, given the impossible high standards you state abused women should live up to.  Again, horrified that the blame keeps being deflected from abusive rapists, in two FJ threads at the same time, no less! 

ETA What makes me so angry, in this thread and the other one, are the FJers jumping to the conclusions that the women involved must be terrible monsters.  All the way through the Willis case, there have been people defending Toby - first with all the "there's no way he could have done this/you MUST assume the victims are liars" types, and then with the "it's Brenda's fault Toby raped his daughters, it was up to her to stop him". 

IF the victims were talking about how they feel let down by their mother, and they blame her, I would understand.  But this is just making things up in order to let Toby off the hook, and deliberately ignores what the victims have said, about his isolating and gaslighting tactics, physical abuse, manipulation etc etc.  I really hate the narrative that says if women don't act in exactly the "right" way, their abuse, and the abuse of their kids, is their own fault - but I especially hate it when people ignore victims' own words to create a fantasy where motherhood makes women naturally immune to abuse, and so everything is a simple, easy choice.

Edited December 22, 2018 by Lurky

[xlurker]

It can be debated and argued, but I stand by the idea we don't know what Brenda endured, or how she may have tried to protect her children.  We were not there.  Many women leave, many have a point that is the point of no return and leave.  They are strong and courageous women.  

Many women don't leave, and their reasons may vary.  I believe fear would be the biggest reason.  And fear, being actual physical or emotional is  very individual.  What to one woman may be terrorizing to another may not.  Our responses to said fear are also very individual.  I can not believe that any woman just stays for the heck of it.  Fear is all consuming and life sucking.  Our mental abilities to handle it also runs the gamut.  

We don't know Brenda's response to any fear she was dealing with. We don't know if she did everything in her power to keep the devil away from her girls, we don't know if the only time she felt safe was when he was sleeping, because then she knew exactly where he was and what he was doing.  We don't know her mental status, we don't know her ability to handle stress, we don't know if any threats were made and if "examples" were made to give those threats credence.  WE JUST DON'T KNOW.  And the lack of any police reports doesn't bother me, if the woman was living in fear the idea of calling the police and filing a report may be totally out of the question.  

I know some of us here have spoken of suffering from DV.  It's terrifying.  Every woman does not possess the courage, strength and mental fortitude to leave. They will almost all do everything they believe they are capable of doing to protect themselves and thier children.  

We don't know.  I refuse to stand in judgement of her.  

[Hisey]

Jessica's words:

Quote

I sat down and wrote a fourteen page document about the worst abuse. It poured out of me in terrible detail and it was the first time I felt the power of its story. I showed the letter to my mother who was rightly outraged. My father refused to read it and accused me of lying.

Fourteen pages! And that only covered "the worst" of the abuse.  (The bolding is mine.)

Nothing changed, though. Brenda did not leave. It's wonderful that Jessica was able to save her sisters. 

Jessica at age 9:

Quote

I didn’t realize there was zero evidence of anything specific and all I did was nod uncertainly when a few general questions were asked by my mother. I heard my mother raise her voice to my father for the first time in my life and I thought the adults would figure it out. 

 

[xlurker]

36 minutes ago, Hisey said:

I heard my mother raise her voice to my father for the first time in my life

Could this not be that Brenda never raised her voice because she herself was living in fear.  That the thought that her daughter was being harmed gave her the courage to raise her voice?  Do we know what happened behind closed doors at this time?  Does Jessica indicate her mother herself was being beaten, belittled, or even raped?  If she (Brenda) was did Jessica even know?  And when he responded behind those closed doors was it in a the form of a threat? Was is softly spoken and full of promise?  

Yes. this is all speculation, because we don't know.  We don't know if things shifted in that house after the letter. We don't know if Brenda became more vigilant, hoping to protect her children.  We do not know how damaged she was herself!  

In a perfect world with a strong self assured, whole woman, we should all hope she leaves with the children.  And that she and the children stayed safe and alive.  It is a terrible story. Children were harmed, and that is NEVER acceptable.  Thank God Jessica was strong enough to leave, strong enough to get help, and strong enough to save her family.  

Fear can cause you to stay, look at Elizabeth Smart and others that did not leave kidnappers out of fear.  Brenda could very well have felt she was keeping herself and her children alive by staying.  We don't know.  Until Brenda herself comes forward we will never know.  But placing blame on her, saying she is culpable in the harm of her children--well, that can very easily be victim blaming.  Until we know more, either from her or the children indicating otherwise, I will not go that route.

[raised in rebellion]

What we know is that she did know, and she stayed. Why does everyone keep acting like she didn’t know? @Hisey I think you made some great points. 

[AliceInFundyland]

For a refresher of events related by Jess:

https://www.jessicawillisfisher.com/

[xlurker]

Yes, we know she knew, we know she read the letter and she raised her voice to Toby for the first known time.  

All I am saying is for a society that is constantly concerned with mental health, and is adverse to victim blaming (rightfully so) that to so casually cast culpability onto Brenda is worrisome.  We truly do not know what she had to endure, if anything.  If we find that he treated her like a queen and she stood quietly by, by all means she deserves what he got.  However, we do not know that.  

If he was beating and belittling the children it isn't a huge leap to think he was doing the same to her.  Years of abuse, whether physical or emotional, are cumulative.  It does not seem as if she had a big support system and was somewhat isolated with the kids.  WE know there is help, and she probably also knew.  But did she believe it was doable for her?  Fear can manifest in ways that most folks can not understand even when they are in the situation.  They realize the thoughts are irrational but are somehow still frozen with fear.  

My point is to give her the benefit of the doubt.  We truly don't know.  And quite frankly we don't have to know, no one has to tell us.  Again, I don't feel comfortable casting blame at her at this point.  It smacks of victim blaming.

[Justme131]

I endured a 19 year marriage to an emotionally abusive man. It was crazy how I came to think it was normal. It was probably nowhere near the extent that Brenda endured, but I honestly didn’t realize it was not normal. It just became my normal. If he even hinted at hurting one of the kids, Brenda didn’t think she had a choice at all. Knowing I could lose my daughter kept me in the marriage for far too long and I didn’t realize how bad it was until I was out of the marriage.

[Gobsmacked]

So many fathers kill their own children if their mothers dare stand up for herself. We haven't a clue what Brenda endured. 

Thankfully her kids are a talented bunch. That kept them in the spotlight, not isolated at home. Once the shit hit the fan the family was (safer) they are known to the public. This is perhaps what Brenda was hoping for. Her kids in the spotlight to gain some kind of safety. 

I know nothing of Brenda's background or family, so don't know if she had a safety net there. 

Non of us knows. Brenda is a victim also. He is evil, and thankfully where he needs to be. Locked up until he dies hopefully. 

[RosyDaisy]

I'm sure the authorities and CPS did an investigation. The fact that Brenda has custody of the minor children tells me they don't believe she is at fault.

[Gobsmacked]

Apologies for double post! Just realised. Am currently in Whistler using free internet at a Bar.  Weird things happen in the snow!

[erunerune]

3 minutes ago, Gobsmacked said:

Apologies for double post! Just realised. Am currently in Whistler using free internet at a Bar.  Weird things happen in the snow!

I’m leaving for whistler in a few days and I plan to inhabit all of the bars when I am not otherwise carousing in the snow!

[Gobsmacked]

5 minutes ago, erunerune said:

I’m leaving for whistler in a few days and I plan to inhabit all of the bars when I am not otherwise carousing in the snow!

Wear a flower, we might bump into each other! Snowed all day today, looking good!!

 

Edited December 23, 2018 by Gobsmacked
Added a bit

[raised in rebellion]

I don’t think anyone is suggesting she is at fault. What I learned about DV in my classes is that people can be victims and abusers and enablers all at the same time. It is mostly due to fear, and I certainly didn’t mean to imply she is in any way at fault for his actions. And he was a scary looking dude. I rabbit holed into this particular atrocity a while back, and it seemed to me that she feared him, but also loved him. We all know some of these moms in these fundy can be cruel. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt, but I can’t understand how anyone could allow (4?) of their daughters to be raped. I’m having a hard time seeing her as helpless. She wasn’t in the middle of nowhere Alaska like the pilgrims, for example. She had options. None of us can know why she didn’t exercise them. Of course she isn’t anywhere near as awful as Toby, and perhaps not awful at all. Maybe she truly was blind to her power to help her family...It seems the family unit is strong and healing, and that pos is where he belongs. All positives. Now if only that smorten creep would get what he deserves. 

[Palimpsest]

Well, crap.  I had to say "so sorry" on the last page for a knee-jerk reaction at imagined victim-blaming. 

But the victim blamers came back to prove my point.  @Hisey is back.  Victim-blaming again and not for the first time on this thread.  

@Hisey has issues, IMO.  She stirs shit because she is apparently the most perfect mama ever.

She has no understanding, no compassion, and is utterly ignorant about the cycle of violence that is DV.  And refuses to learn.

You know something, I worked for a long time in the front lines of DV "prevention and education."  It is really hard work.  And soul destroying work.  I remember saying that I had lost the ability to be surprised by the extent of the ugliness of DV.  But if I ever lost the ability to be shocked - that would be a real problem ...

Damn, I did my best before I moved from the front lines to less stressful stuff.  But I passed the banner of prevention on to others who are still doing their very best.  I know that because, while no longer on the front lines, I still consult and develop training manuals on DV.

We have come a really long way since I started in this work 30 years ago.  So many more people understand.  But we have not come far enough.  Obviously.

Attitudes like @Hisey's and her supporters are not new to me.  Some people just don't understand how clever abusers are.  They just don't get how frogs can slowly get boiled.

They don't understand the risk factors, the dynamics, the lack of help. 

They just don't understand.

In every DV training session there is at least one Hisey.  The most aggressive are:

• privileged and never abused people who just don't get it. They have never met an abuser.  They just don't get that they too could be  vulnerable.
• people who had a pretty decent childhood and developed enough resilience to resist an abuser when they met one.  These tend to be the people who mock those who did not leave at the first controlling move - which may not be a fist in the face.  See boiling frogs.
• people who have been abused, failed to protect their kids for a long time, but got out.  And sometimes these people are the most judgmental.  Because they are still yelling at themselves.

That is the 3 point over-simplified scale.  I have no way of knowing where Hisey falls.  But given past history with Hisey - I'm with @AliceInFundyland.  Troll alert.

None of this is specific to Brenda Willis.  I do not know who she is.

I will say that many women like her have been victims of child abuse themselves and are, therefore, more vulnerable to ending up in abusive relationships, unable to protect their children.  Because that might be their norm.

The bottom line here is that Brenda Willis was not prosecuted.  Her children seem not to blame her. 

My guess is that there are educated and informed reasons for that.  So FFS, Hiseys of this world - leave the poor woman alone!

8 minutes ago, raised in rebellion said:

I don’t think anyone is suggesting she is at fault.

Have you met @Hisey?

But otherwise I agree with your post.

 

Edited December 23, 2018 by Palimpsest

[Gobsmacked]

Love you Palimpsest. You said it far more sensibly than I ever could.  My background is nursing then a stint working for women's refuge, have lots of untold stories. Am feeling very frustrated by some of the posts on this thread. 

[Hisey]

2 hours ago, Gobsmacked said:

So many fathers kill their own children if their mothers dare stand up for herself. We haven't a clue what Brenda endured

Brenda lied. That's indisputable. She publicly said she had "no idea" her little daughters were being raped. We know that's not true. 

Here's what we know about Brenda for sure:

• She ignored her daughter's cry for help.
• She stayed with a rapist and had more kids.
• She knew Jessica was being raped
• She lied about it, and said she didn't

Are you sure you want to keep defending this enabler of rape? Is this really the side you want to be on?

And you are wrong about when children are killed. It's not when their mothers "stand up" for them (whatever that means). Abusive fathers kill when their partners have left or are going to leave.  Plenty of statistics back that up. That's a very good reason to be cautious, have a plan and lots of support. Though no matter what you do, it's a dangerous time.

No one said it would be easy for her to leave. But it's not easy to be raped when you are five, either. Personally, I always do the hard things, so my kids don't have to.

 

Edited December 23, 2018 by Hisey

[feministxtian]

Ya know, it's so easy to say "well just leave" if you're a DV victim. What you don't get is that your abuser has played with your mind, he has threatened you with taking your children, he has made you believe that you could not take care of yourself and your children. He's told you that you're a fat slob and that no other man would have you, he's stalked you, controlled money, controlled your access to the outside world (even if you live in town). 

The most dangerous time for a woman who leaves her abuser is when she leaves. It doesn't get any better when she gets on her feet. He will still use his access to the children to attempt to still control you. He will sit in a courtroom and attempt to convince the judge that he's the one who is "mentally stable" and you're a psychiatric mess. 

Ask me how I know. Go ahead. In the meantime, those who think it's so easy to pack up and leave can pound sand. You know nothing of which you speak. You sit in your nice life and never see the one who is destroyed on the inside and barely holding it together on the outside. 

[nausicaa]

39 minutes ago, Hisey said:

Personally, I always do the hard things, so my kids don't have to.

I'm assuming you would only be this brazenly self-righteous if you'd been in a similar situation with an abusive and controlling spouse, multiple children, and no means of support and yet still left immediately. 

Congratulations, you have defied all of the well-researched statistics out there. Hopefully one day you will mature enough to have some compassion for people who may struggle more than you do.