Lori Alexander 39: Civilization breaks down because...women

[HoneyBunny]

23 minutes ago, fluffy said:

@foreign fundie Please for the love of God stop proselytizing. It is deeply offensive and a really fucked up use of this space. 

Thank you for this. 

[JillyO]

To be fair, I did ask @foreign fundie why she evangelizes, and she has answered my question. I think that's more than fair. Thank you for the reply, foreign fundie! I still strongly disagree with the practice of evangelizing, but I do appreciate the insight into why you (and millions of other evangelical Christians) do it.

That said, I want to emphasize the point treehugger made. It is not a "Western perspective" to believe that the vast majority of people on this earth have heard about Jesus. They have. They were forced to. There may be a few people left in the depths of the Amazon or where ever in the world that reject any contact with Western civilization and may genuinely not have heard about Jesus, but those would be a tiny, tiny fraction of a percent of the world's population. People in majority Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist nations have heard about Jesus. They just don't want to follow your religion.

[slp]

In no way did I intend to offend you, Louisa. To put what  said in greater context, I would not speak to any person I did not know personally in this way.  I do not ever presume to know someone's relationship with God unless they have told me, so if someone says they are a Christian, I absolutely believe them, no matter what.  I would not just say "I know you're having a hard time right now .  Here is what helped me when I had a hard time.  May I share?" to a stranger.  The times I have said that have been few and far between and only to friends who know me.

All anyone would have to say to me is "no, I don't want to discuss God." or "no." and I would never bring it up again.  I would pray for that person privately that they would be helped through whatever hard time they were having, but I would absolutely not bring up God again.  

I am a compassionate person, I feel badly for people when they are hurting or going through a hard time, I want to help them. That would be my reason for attempting to share my relationship with God with them, but if they were not open to that/did not want to hear about it, then that would be fine too, and i would try to help them in other ways, in whatever way I could.

[louisa05]

[mention=19103]JillyO[/mention]
Thank you for the question. Before I answer it, I would like to draw a distinction between those who have never heard about the gospel of Jesus, like millions in Hindu, Buddhist and Muslim nations, and those that have grown up surrounded by Christians, churches, Christian institutions, and all kinds of public displays of the Christian faith. In the case of people being completely unfamiliar with the Biblical message (hard to imagine for Westerners, but the reality for a large proportion of the world’s population), evangelism is offering them a chance to hear of a God that made them, loves them, who became a man to share their suffering and deal with their sin, who conquered death, who offers them eternal life and who calls them to follow him. This message is the message that we believe all people should have a chance to hear and to respond to. I will later explain why.
However, from frequent comments here, I gather that in America many people feel pushed, imposed on, nagged or relentlessly invited to explore a faith they either already possess in a slightly different form, or that they have explored and decided against. 
Although I can think of many good reasons for sharing my faith with those who have not had a chance to hear, or really understand because Christianity was misrepresented to them (all they know is from Lori’s blog for example), I can think of no good reason for harassing people who have decided against Christian believes or who are Christians but do not attend your church. If an evangelist (or random Christian friend) shares his faith with you and you are not interested or believe already, then a ‘no thank you’ should be enough to make him back off or change topics. When I say ‘bold’ evangelism, I mean unashamed and unafraid, not aggressively pushing the gospel down people’s throat. And I also firmly believe that we cannot and should never try to ‘convert’ people. Only people themselves can choose to convert, because their hearts are convinced by the Spirit of God that the message they hear is true. 
But back to your question why you would share your faith anyway and not just let people believe what they believe. There are several answers, so here goes…
Jesus told his followers to ‘go into all the world and preach the gospel’ to ‘make disciples of all nations’ to ‘be my witnesses…until the ends of the earth’. The gospel was not meant to stay in Jerusalem, but was meant to be made know everywhere. So really, we have a mandate.  
Also, saying that you are happy to be a Christian yourself, but see no need to urge other to consider it, that makes no sense in my opinion. Because the only reason you believe is because somebody told you about it. And that person heard it from someone else. Ultimately, there were missionaries/evangelists that left their homes and took the trouble, the cost, the danger, and whatever it took to make this message known. Without evangelism, we would all have very different believes and very different values. Because whether you are a Christian or not, a lot of what we consider common values in the West, find their base in a Judeo-Christian worldview. I am not saying Christians or people in countries with Christian roots are better people, or that their countries are superior. I am saying that many of the values we judge ourselves and each other by are not common to mankind everywhere, nor did we think them up. They are firmly rooted in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament. We came to share these values because the scriptures that contain them were brought to us and translated for us, by evangelists. 
Back to evangelism, if we are glad that we have heard that message and believe it, we cannot at the same time believe evangelism is morally wrong. Because if it was, we should never have heard it either. You could take that further and say that if evangelism is morally wrong, than all Christian expressions in our culture, which are all a result ultimately of evangelism, should be done away with. 
Then there is the point of truth. I had a friend who joined a doomsday cult. She loved my family and did what she could to get us on board, so we could along with her escape the destruction of the world in December a few years ago. She did not convince me, but her ‘evangelism’ was the result of her conviction that what she believed was true, and could save us. How could I fault her for trying? She loved us. I have another friend who often has a coffee with her Muslim neighbor. She is a very strong evangelical and her friends husband a mosque leader. They both really want the other to know the truth. So when they meet, they get 20 minutes each to talk about their believes. They listen to each other. They appreciate the other trying. They don’t get pushy about it. They hope and pray their friend will be convinced. 
If you believe what is in the Bible is true, it cannot only be true for yourself. Because the claims of Jesus are not limited to his followers. God loves the world, Jesus came to save the world, he will come again to judge the world. Now if we consider our faith ‘an opinion’ then we can let others have their opinion and not bring ours up. But if we believe the gospel is really true, then we cannot keep what we believe private, because the very content of that gospel demands its proclamation. And as I am convinced personally that Jesus is who he says he is, I cannot be let off the hook. Now there are a million ways and places this gospel can be shared, through words and actions. And again I am not saying Christians have a right or a duty to be annoying assholes. Quite the opposite. But still I think that as a believer in Jesus, I am ‘automatically’ an evangelist. Off to my soapbox! (Oh wait, I was on it already)
 

Actually, Jesus said make disciples not converts and there is a difference.

But never mind that... what we see in the gospels and in Acts is Jesus and the apostles preaching to those who come to them not forcing their message on everyone. Jesus doesn’t preach to the sick, for example, he heals them. He doesn’t even require belief first.

And the people who do the “oh, you’re having a hard time, let me tell you about God now...” thing. No. Just no. Here are things you say to someone struggling or grieving:

I’m sorry
How can I help?
Do you need anything ?
That must be hard.

Those are empathetic ,kind responses. “Let me tell you about how my version of Christianity helped me” is not.

When you walk into my house the first thing you see is a crucifix If you want to know why I’m Catholic I will tell you. But at your father’s funeral, I’m going to keep my damn mouth shut. If I don’t know you, I’m going to keep my mouth shut. If I know you and I know nothing about your personal faith, I’m keeping my mouth shut. If you are a rational grown adult and an atheist, I’m going to respect that you made your own choice. If you are of another non-Christian faith, I’m not going to say anything because I don’t believe there is no validity in other world religions. It is possible that God revealed himself in culturally appropriate ways in different times and places. My church actually recognizes this as a possibility.

Your witness should be your life. It should be the fruits of your faith, not your ability to proselytize. Interpreting the great commission as proselytizing is a narrow interpretation.

[Imrlgoddess]

Lori is showing her entitlement again.  I love how she attempts to reference lives of people she's never been involved with or ever lived like.  She has no clue what it means to chop wood or haul water.  She's go no right telling anyone how asceticaly they should be living.  "but I just teach what the Bible says"...no lady, you shove random verses down peoples throats without understanding the context in which they were written.  That's not teaching, that's mindless drivel.  

WRT this whole preaching thing (can't spell the pros-word)....Even when I was devout Catholic, I never "spread the word".  Partly because I believe it to be pushy but mostly because my faith is and always has been a deeply personal thing.  I can't fathom just discussing my sex life with any old body, I feel the exact same way about religion and faith.  My connection with my god (whomever he or she may be) is no one else's business and it's not my business to put it out there and push it onto other people.  Rarely will I get into depth about what and whom I believe, there are occasions and they are typically with those who are of similar faith.  I got tired of constantly having to defend the Church and it's rules, I got tired of the arguments with those who would say Catholics weren't real Christians.  I'm sorry, I hadn't realized my whole family were made of plastic, not flesh and blood.  (woooossaaahhhh)  Point is, I have a very "keep it to yourself" attitude about it all.  They can talk to me, I take the tracts, I smile and nod and keep my mouth shut.  

[Carol]

1 hour ago, foreign fundie said:

@JillyO

Thank you for the question. Before I answer it, I would like to draw a distinction between those who have never heard about the gospel of Jesus, like millions in Hindu, Buddhist and Muslim nations, and those that have grown up surrounded by Christians, churches, Christian institutions, and all kinds of public displays of the Christian faith. In the case of people being completely unfamiliar with the Biblical message (hard to imagine for Westerners, but the reality for a large proportion of the world’s population), evangelism is offering them a chance to hear of a God that made them, loves them, who became a man to share their suffering and deal with their sin, who conquered death, who offers them eternal life and who calls them to follow him. This message is the message that we believe all people should have a chance to hear and to respond to. I will later explain why.

However, from frequent comments here, I gather that in America many people feel pushed, imposed on, nagged or relentlessly invited to explore a faith they either already possess in a slightly different form, or that they have explored and decided against. 

Although I can think of many good reasons for sharing my faith with those who have not had a chance to hear, or really understand because Christianity was misrepresented to them (all they know is from Lori’s blog for example), I can think of no good reason for harassing people who have decided against Christian believes or who are Christians but do not attend your church. If an evangelist (or random Christian friend) shares his faith with you and you are not interested or believe already, then a ‘no thank you’ should be enough to make him back off or change topics. When I say ‘bold’ evangelism, I mean unashamed and unafraid, not aggressively pushing the gospel down people’s throat. And I also firmly believe that we cannot and should never try to ‘convert’ people. Only people themselves can choose to convert, because their hearts are convinced by the Spirit of God that the message they hear is true. 

But back to your question why you would share your faith anyway and not just let people believe what they believe. There are several answers, so here goes…

Jesus told his followers to ‘go into all the world and preach the gospel’ to ‘make disciples of all nations’ to ‘be my witnesses…until the ends of the earth’. The gospel was not meant to stay in Jerusalem, but was meant to be made know everywhere. So really, we have a mandate.  

Also, saying that you are happy to be a Christian yourself, but see no need to urge other to consider it, that makes no sense in my opinion. Because the only reason you believe is because somebody told you about it. And that person heard it from someone else. Ultimately, there were missionaries/evangelists that left their homes and took the trouble, the cost, the danger, and whatever it took to make this message known. Without evangelism, we would all have very different believes and very different values. Because whether you are a Christian or not, a lot of what we consider common values in the West, find their base in a Judeo-Christian worldview. I am not saying Christians or people in countries with Christian roots are better people, or that their countries are superior. I am saying that many of the values we judge ourselves and each other by are not common to mankind everywhere, nor did we think them up. They are firmly rooted in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament. We came to share these values because the scriptures that contain them were brought to us and translated for us, by evangelists. 

Back to evangelism, if we are glad that we have heard that message and believe it, we cannot at the same time believe evangelism is morally wrong. Because if it was, we should never have heard it either. You could take that further and say that if evangelism is morally wrong, than all Christian expressions in our culture, which are all a result ultimately of evangelism, should be done away with. 

Then there is the point of truth. I had a friend who joined a doomsday cult. She loved my family and did what she could to get us on board, so we could along with her escape the destruction of the world in December a few years ago. She did not convince me, but her ‘evangelism’ was the result of her conviction that what she believed was true, and could save us. How could I fault her for trying? She loved us. I have another friend who often has a coffee with her Muslim neighbor. She is a very strong evangelical and her friends husband a mosque leader. They both really want the other to know the truth. So when they meet, they get 20 minutes each to talk about their believes. They listen to each other. They appreciate the other trying. They don’t get pushy about it. They hope and pray their friend will be convinced. 

If you believe what is in the Bible is true, it cannot only be true for yourself. Because the claims of Jesus are not limited to his followers. God loves the world, Jesus came to save the world, he will come again to judge the world. Now if we consider our faith ‘an opinion’ then we can let others have their opinion and not bring ours up. But if we believe the gospel is really true, then we cannot keep what we believe private, because the very content of that gospel demands its proclamation. And as I am convinced personally that Jesus is who he says he is, I cannot be let off the hook. Now there are a million ways and places this gospel can be shared, through words and actions. And again I am not saying Christians have a right or a duty to be annoying assholes. Quite the opposite. But still I think that as a believer in Jesus, I am ‘automatically’ an evangelist. Off to my soapbox! (Oh wait, I was on it already)

 

 

 

The arrogance of christianity is shocking to me.  You are assuming people believe in god, the Bible and that if they don't they will go to hell.  You are assuming your god takes priority over theirs.  Please, just mind your own business.

I despise proselytizing or evangelizing.  If I want to know about something, I ask.  I'm a mature woman and over the course of my life I've learned to ask for what I want, not assume that what I have, other people should have, too.

 

The best things someone could say to me in a time of trial is,

"Is there anything I can do to help?".  

"How can I help you?".

"Can I bring you some food if you don't feel like cooking?". 

"Can I take you to a movie to help you take a break?".

Why do christians assume that their god is an answer for everyone and everything?  I go back and forth about what I believe but I would never presume to bring up my beliefs to someone struggling as they are MY answers for ME.  IF anything, I lean toward a personal relationship with whatever I believe god to be.

Off my soapbox but letting everyone know my belief in god is ebbing again after yesterday's shootings.  What the Fuck god makes a plan for someone that includes a dreadful, early death that destroys the lives of everyone around them?  Please, For Fucks Sake, don't tell me a loving being does something like that.  

My current opinion is that man made god in man's image.    

[EowynW]

I'm tired of the many Christians sending prayers, and saying "let me tell you about..." 

That isn't enough.

Jesus wept with people. He helped them. He listened. And He loved them. He sat in their pain with them. He served them. In the days of the very very early church, when women taught and served alongside the men, their love and service was LEGENDARY. There are accounts written by people in the secular government about them. How they lived and loved and served. 

After going through some really tough seasons of deep losses, loneliness and depression, I am tired of all of this. My thought is that if we tell someone we are praying for them, it also needs to be paired with words of love and practical action. We are supposed to be down on our knees in the yucky parts of life with people. Life isn't meant to be walked alone. And so many claim God's love but do nothing to show it. 

"How can I help?" 

"What can I do for you?"

"Let me fix that for you."

"I'll bring the meal." 

"Let me help you clean the house." 

"I will go with you to the funeral." 

"I will watch your kids while you go to therapy."

"You asked about wanting to live healthier. I'm not going to recommend a $60 bottle of essential oil. Instead, let's get together and do some cooking instead." (Because I'm super annoyed at My Crazy Doterra Lady right now) 

 

Etc etc etc. 

 

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

Here's the thing:  If I know you and I know you are having a hard time/ hit a rough patch I will ask if there is anything I can do to help and let you know I'm always available to listen.

I will also add you to my prayers.

I will not talk to you about God.  I will not tell you about praying for you.  My prayers are between God and me.  I take very seriously the admonition to pray secretly in your "closet".

If you ask me why I'm a Catholic or to explain something that I believe I'll answer, but I'll never bring it up myself.

If you visit my house you'll know I'm Catholic by the BVM and St. Anthony statues close to the front door and the old Sacred Heart of Jesus lithographic (with dried palm fronds in a vase) in the hall way.   But I'll never refer or draw attention to them.

I try to live my faith quietly. I daily seek the gifts of the Holy Spirit and to perform the corporal and spiritual Acts of Mercy.  I fail miserably far too often. Other than writing this sentence here I don't talk about that aspect of my life with anyone except Mr. Dress.  And only sometimes with him when I am overwhelmed by how horribly I failed.  

My faith sustains me.  I can never presume that my faith/ any faith is what you need.

[AlwaysDiscerning]

Don't know if this was shared  yet. I caught it last night and I see its gone now. She deleted all these bible verses!!

 

[choralcrusader8613]

Lori's newest post about gullibility of women vs. men just gave me a headache. I've known men who were way more gullible than women, and I have a sister who fell for that "gullible on the ceiling" trick for years, so if that gives you any idea...

She also quotes from this commentary on Adam and Eve that is beyond stupid:

Quote

“Being more easily deceived, she more easily deceives. Last in being, she was first in sin—indeed, she alone was deceived. The subtle serpent knew that she was ‘the weaker vessel’ (1 Peter 3:7). He therefore tempted her, not Adam. She yielded to the temptations of sense and the deceits of Satan; he, to conjugal love. Hence, in the order of God’s judicial sentence, the serpent, the prime offender, stands first; the woman, who was deceived, next; and the man, persuaded by his wife, last (Genesis 3:14-19)” (Jamieson-Fausset Commentary).

If I tried to put that in one of my papers for my philosophy or theology classes, I would have gotten an F. There's barely any followed logic through the whole thing. It only makes sense if you're already biased toward those opinions. Also, there's no textual support for any of that crap in the actual text of Genesis.

Quote

Women are emotional in nature and easily led by their feelings. This is why God created men to be the leaders. They are not as easily deceived nor led by their emotions. I am not sure how anyone with any wisdom at all cannot discern this to be as true today as it was with Eve. It’s the natural temperament and emotional makeup that the Lord gave women to be home with their children all day.

To quote Spongebob:

Spoiler

  

Men and women are equally led by their emotions; they just display it in different ways. Also, some people, for one reason or another, are just not very demonstrative with their emotions. We're all different, and our biology at birth shouldn't predestine us for anything we don't want to become. That's the beauty of diversity, Lori. Pity your narrow-minded ass can't appreciate that, Lori.

[SuperNova]

5 hours ago, louisa05 said:

You also have to understand how utterly distasteful it is to be a Christian whose Christianity is considered false or inadequate and thus be a conversion target.

No, I don't. Just as I wouldn't expect you to understand what it's like to be an atheist and know what it's like to be a conversion target for virtually every religion. I simply choose not to see it. 

But as it happens, I do understand. I grew up Catholic. I've heard how I was not a true Christian, whatever that means. As a young adult I began to feel that organized religion was a way for people to create boundaries between each other, each proclaiming that they were right. As an atheist, I've found more acceptance in my heart for everyone and their belief system. I choose not to take offense from someone's kindness because their religious views or motives are inconsequential to me. 

When my grandmother was dying, people offered their prayers and I bowed my head and prayed with them. It may very well be as you say, that they were trying to exploit my struggles to convert me but I chose to take it as a kindness, the ulterior motives behind it is for them and their god to sort out. 

[TeddyBonkers]

I just couldn't even with this bullshit- I had to share it with Mr. Bonkers.

Quote

“Adam never was deceived at all; neither by the serpent, with whom he never conversed; nor by his wife, he knew what he did, when he took the fruit of her, and ate; he ate it not under any deception, or vain imagination, that they should not die, but should be as gods, knowing good and evil. He took and ate out of love to his wife, from a fond affection to her, to bear her company, and that she might not die alone;

Mr. Bonkers' paraphrased opinion? Adam wasn't that altruistic. He wanted to be like God, plain and simple. If not, he wouldn't have thrown Eve under the bus at the first opportunity.

[slp]

I do apologize if I've given the impression that I would *only* say 'may i share about what helped me?' and not physically do anything to help someone, b/c that is absolutely not the case.  I will do whatever I can physically to help someone out, all the things you shared Eowyn, in your post just above, if possible.  

You all have certainly given me something to think about... I'd not considered it might be offensive to ask if I could share what has helped me, and I'll definitely be praying and thinking about that.  I have always been against door knocking, etc and only been comfortable living out my life and answering questions when asked about my faith, occasionally sharing if I felt led.  

Thank you all for sharing your perspective and perception. 

[foreign fundie]

12 minutes ago, JillyO said:

To be fair, I did ask @foreign fundie why she evangelizes, and she has answered my question. I think that's more than fair. Thank you for the reply, foreign fundie! I still strongly disagree with the practice of evangelizing, but I do appreciate the insight into why you (and millions of other evangelical Christians) do it.

That said, I want to emphasize the point treehugger made. It is not a "Western perspective" to believe that the vast majority of people on this earth have heard about Jesus. They have. They were forced to. There may be a few people left in the depths of the Amazon or where ever in the world that reject any contact with Western civilization and may genuinely not have heard about Jesus, but those would be a tiny, tiny fraction of a percent of the world's population. People in majority Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist nations have heard about Jesus. They just don't want to follow your religion.

Thank you for kindly defending my right to answer your question Although I can understand the    harsh responses as well, given the bad experiences people have had with evangelism. And I am really sorry for these instances where people have felt exploited or manipulated. 

As for nearly everyone in the world having heard the gospel and just not wanting it, I respectfully disagree. Throughout the Middle East conversion to Christianity is illegal and converts are often persecuted and even killed. Who would tell these people about the gospel? Evangelism has been illegal for a long time and generations come and go without ever hearing it. Bibles are often forbidden for Muslims in Muslim majority nations. Saudi Arabia does not have one indigenous church. Where would Saudis hear the gospel? In North Korea Bible possession is punishable by prison camp or death. Where would North Koreans hear the gospel? What about millions of illiterate rural Indians and Pakistanis. Not everyone goes to school where they may hear Jesus mentioned. There are vast regions throughout Asia without any church. And hundreds of languages that have no Bible translation. We don’t really know if they want to believe the message of Jesus and follow Him until they hear who he is.

In China a million people become Christians every year, when they hear about Jesus through other Chinese Christians. The Atheism they were taught didn’t cut it for them. They convert even though in China you will be looked down upon or worse. In Iran Christianity grows fast, with many becoming believers through dreams about Jesus. They risk everything to leave Islam. And they beg believers abroad to tell them more and send them Bibles. Internet ministries get tens of thousands of requests for Bible courses in counties where the government opposes Christianity.  They want to hear, they actively look for someone to tell them.

So yes, these days in most countries there are churches, but that doesn’t mean that everyone has heard the gospel or that everyone who is now Muslim or Hindu is that because they want to. Many have never had an alternative. 

And full religious freedom is not a thing in many populous countries. People may want to convert but not dare to. 

So yes, I agree that a person who hears of Jesus and does not want to believe in him should not be bothered or pushed. Forcing religion on people is always wrong. Also faith is an inner conviction which cannot be forced from the outside. It is not what Jesus taught. He always gave people freedom to believe or not. But from my perspective there are vast numbers of people that have never heard and some or maybe many of them may very well want to follow Jesus if they only knew about his message.

 

[louisa05]

22 minutes ago, SuperNova said:

No, I don't. Just as I wouldn't expect you to understand what it's like to be an atheist and know what it's like to be a conversion target for virtually every religion. I simply choose not to see it. 

But as it happens, I do understand. I grew up Catholic. I've heard how I was not a true Christian, whatever that means. As a young adult I began to feel that organized religion was a way for people to create boundaries between each other, each proclaiming that they were right. As an atheist, I've found more acceptance in my heart for everyone and their belief system. I choose not to take offense from someone's kindness because their religious views or motives are inconsequential to me. 

When my grandmother was dying, people offered their prayers and I bowed my head and prayed with them. It may very well be as you say, that they were trying to exploit my struggles to convert me but I chose to take it as a kindness, the ulterior motives behind it is for them and their god to sort out. 

I think prayer can be a kind gesture. When my dad died, a woman stood in my church before his funeral mass and told my mother and I that she would really like to talk with us about how if we "truly knew Jesus" like she did we would be able to cope with grief. That is the bullshit that I am talking about. That is someone trying to convert you in your time of struggle. The poster who said that s/he likes to say to people going through a hard time that her relationship with God helps and can s/he please tell them all about it is using someone's struggle as an opportunity for conversion. 

And, if you read one of my other posts, you would see that I very clearly stated that if you are an atheist and a rational adult, I will presume that you have carefully made your own choice and respect that. I do reserve the right to not assume that about the sullen teenager who tells me that he cannot attend a fish fry at the neighborhood parish because he "is too smart for religion" (because eating fried fish in a school gym is definitely a religious ritual). But I had known that particular sullen teenager since infancy. I would not say anything to someone else's sullen teenager. 

[feministxtian]

Again, if someone asks me what I believe and why (as above), I'll tell them. Otherwise...nope! My reasons are many, including the perception of conservative/fundamentalist/evangelical Christians by other people (hell, I don't agree with most of them even if I am one). 

I prefer to ACT. I have been made aware of a family who is taking in two little children on VERY short notice, like they found out yesterday and the children will be with them on Monday. Today, my happy ass is going shopping. I have their sizes, I have their needs. I'm a little low on funds right now but getting these two little ones started isn't going to kill me. I'll drop it off at a friend's house for her to deliver to the family. (long story, short version, family placement from out of state). I remember the kindness people extended to us when we had to get our granddaughters on short notice and I want to pay it forward. I'm hoping and praying that someone or someoneS can kick in for the bigger stuff this family needs...crib, car seats, a bed for the other little one, maybe a pack and play, toys, etc. 

Why am I doing this? Because I am called to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, help heal the sick, visit the prisoner, give water to the thirsty (see Matthew 25:31-46). You guys are the only ones who will know about this besides my husband and my friend.

[Fascinated]

36 minutes ago, choralcrusader8613 said:

Women are emotional in nature and easily led by their feelings. This is why God created men to be the leaders. They are not as easily deceived nor led by their emotions.

How does this make any sense at all?  Women are emotional therefore god made men to be the leaders?  So women were already too emotional before god made men to be leaders?  I’m trying to wrap my brain around it.

For the record, in my opinion, whoever wrote the story of Adam and Eve and the fucking serpent in the garden of eden has a great deal to answer for. It was obviously designed to put women in their place. That it has succeeded so spectacularly with people like Lori boggles my mind. A serpent. A snake. Think about that. And now ‘women are more easily deceived’. What utter nonsense.

[choralcrusader8613]

1 minute ago, Fascinated said:

How does this make any sense at all?  Women are emotional therefore god made men to be the leaders?  So women were already too emotional before god made men to be leaders?  I’m trying to wrap my brain around it.

The only thing I can even try and parse from that commentary is that because Eve was successfully tempted, that made her more emotionally-driven than Adam. Even there, though, there is literally no textual support for that (that I can see anyway). I would bet dollars to donuts that the guy is conflating the actual text with Paradise Lost.

[treehugger]

Rufus grant me patience. I just can't with this White-saviour, Colonialist, bullshit anymore. Maybe I'll  have a better response once I've calmed down a bit, but for Christsake, Christianity originated in Middle East. The sheer arrogance of Western Evangelism sometimes! 

[Carol]

38 minutes ago, foreign fundie said:

Thank you for kindly defending my right to answer your question Although I can understand the    harsh responses as well, given the bad experiences people have had with evangelism. And I am really sorry for these instances where people have felt exploited or manipulated. 

As for nearly everyone in the world having heard the gospel and just not wanting it, I respectfully disagree. Throughout the Middle East conversion to Christianity is illegal and converts are often persecuted and even killed. Who would tell these people about the gospel? Evangelism has been illegal for a long time and generations come and go without ever hearing it. Bibles are often forbidden for Muslims in Muslim majority nations. Saudi Arabia does not have one indigenous church. Where would Saudis hear the gospel? In North Korea Bible possession is punishable by prison camp or death. Where would North Koreans hear the gospel? What about millions of illiterate rural Indians and Pakistanis. Not everyone goes to school where they may hear Jesus mentioned. There are vast regions throughout Asia without any church. And hundreds of languages that have no Bible translation. We don’t really know if they want to believe the message of Jesus and follow Him until they hear who he is.

In China a million people become Christians every year, when they hear about Jesus through other Chinese Christians. The Atheism they were taught didn’t cut it for them. They convert even though in China you will be looked down upon or worse. In Iran Christianity grows fast, with many becoming believers through dreams about Jesus. They risk everything to leave Islam. And they beg believers abroad to tell them more and send them Bibles. Internet ministries get tens of thousands of requests for Bible courses in counties where the government opposes Christianity.  They want to hear, they actively look for someone to tell them.

So yes, these days in most countries there are churches, but that doesn’t mean that everyone has heard the gospel or that everyone who is now Muslim or Hindu is that because they want to. Many have never had an alternative. 

And full religious freedom is not a thing in many populous countries. People may want to convert but not dare to. 

So yes, I agree that a person who hears of Jesus and does not want to believe in him should not be bothered or pushed. Forcing religion on people is always wrong. Also faith is an inner conviction which cannot be forced from the outside. It is not what Jesus taught. He always gave people freedom to believe or not. But from my perspective there are vast numbers of people that have never heard and some or maybe many of them may very well want to follow Jesus if they only knew about his message. 

 

Good grief, conversion to christianity is NOT illegal throughout the Middle East.  As far as "who would tell these people about the gospel"...are you being deliberately obtuse?  No one would, but you are presuming they need to hear about it because you think if they don't they are going to hell.

Once again, the arrogance of christianity is astounding to me.  

[choralcrusader8613]

Speaking as a Christian, the internet is a thing, and I'm going to trust that most people around the world have the ability to research any kind of philosophy that appeals to them and adopt it or not as they please. My duty is to respect people's choice in their beliefs on morality, the afterlife, etc. as long as it is not actively harming anyone.

I've been proselytized at before. It feels demeaning and patronizing, and I never want anyone else to feel that way. So I don't do that to people. If someone wanted to know about my faith, they would ask. It's not rocket surgery.

[slp]

Louisa05,

That was a terrible thing for that woman to do and in no way Christian.  I am so sorry someone said that to you.  I 'know Jesus' and I knew Jesus when my mother died, and I grieved hard, and still grieve for her.  I knew Him when my ex husband left and I grieved that too.  That is absolutely NOT what I meant at all.   I would never think that if you know Jesus you aren't sad, or don't grieve.  He just gives me strength to make  it through the hard time, He doesn't make me not be sad or not grieve.  The bible says He is our comforter, and that would be all I was trying to share. 

At one point, a friend (who is atheist) experienced a loss.  I had helped physically, but the friend was going through a rough emotional turmoil as well, and I shared about my experience with loss and asked if I could share what helped, but I did tell her  that it involved God and I understood if she'd rather I didn't share that. She allowed me to share with her the verse from the Bible that helped me and thanked me.  I wasn't trying to 'convert' her.  I honestly just wanted to help her in any way I could.  

[Fascinated]

7 minutes ago, Carol said:

Also faith is an inner conviction which cannot be forced from the outside. It is not what Jesus taught. He always gave people freedom to believe or not. But from my perspective there are vast numbers of people that have never heard and some or maybe many of them may very well want to follow Jesus if they only knew about his message. 

I agree that faith is an inner conviction. If you are going to follow that with ‘it is not what Jesus taught’, you should qualify that the faith you are referring to is Christianity, not faith in general.  Also, if people have never heard of Jesus, why would they want to hear about him?  

[Carol]

21 minutes ago, Fascinated said:

I agree that faith is an inner conviction. If you are going to follow that with ‘it is not what Jesus taught’, you should qualify that the faith you are referring to is Christianity, not faith in general.  Also, if people have never heard of Jesus, why would they want to hear about him?  

 

 11 minutes ago,  Carol said: 

"Also faith is an inner conviction which cannot be forced from the outside. It is not what Jesus taught. He always gave people freedom to believe or not. But from my perspective there are vast numbers of people that have never heard and some or maybe many of them may very well want to follow Jesus if they only knew about his message".

How did this quote show up as, "Carol said".  I didn't say that, I feel totally the opposite.  

[choralcrusader8613]

21 minutes ago, Carol said:

 

 11 minutes ago,  Carol said: 

"Also faith is an inner conviction which cannot be forced from the outside. It is not what Jesus taught. He always gave people freedom to believe or not. But from my perspective there are vast numbers of people that have never heard and some or maybe many of them may very well want to follow Jesus if they only knew about his message".

How did this quote show up as, "Carol said".  I didn't say that, I feel totally the opposite.  

Probably because it was in a post where you responded to that quote from someone else. I can't locate the post right now, because it won't send me to a post when I try to see what's being quoted, but I'll keep trying to see where this shows up.

EDIT: yeah, it's just because of the way things got quoted.