Lori Alexander 39: Civilization breaks down because...women

[Briefly]

4 hours ago, SuperNova said:

But as it happens, I do understand. I grew up Catholic. I've heard how I was not a true Christian, whatever that means. As a young adult I began to feel that organized religion was a way for people to create boundaries between each other, each proclaiming that they were right. As an atheist, I've found more acceptance in my heart for everyone and their belief system. I choose not to take offense from someone's kindness because their religious views or motives are inconsequential to me. 

When my grandmother was dying, people offered their prayers and I bowed my head and prayed with them. It may very well be as you say, that they were trying to exploit my struggles to convert me but I chose to take it as a kindness, the ulterior motives behind it is for them and their god to sort out. 

I have never understood that, Catholic is Christian, Baptist is Christian, Methodist is Christian, etc., People within each group may or may not be Christian, but that is just human nature for lack of another word.

I am Christian but I feel like it's a personal decision each of has to make as far as what, if any, faith we choose to follow.  I'm not going to hide the cross on my wall or the Bibles on the bookcase. I don't deny that we attend church. But I don't want to push it on people or anything since I know what that feels like to have done to me.

I don't think that someone is a bad person just because they are agnostic, atheist, go to a different church or belong to a different faith. I just think people have to make up their own minds and also allow me to do the same.

[Destiny]

1 hour ago, Cleopatra7 said:

I think that many North Koreans (especially the older ones) do have some knowledge of Christianity, since the Korean Peninsula was the only place in East Asia where Christianity really took hold. Kim Il Sung, the founder of NK, was raised in a Presbyterian household and went to missionary schools as a child. Rank and file North Koreans probably have some idea about Christianity even if it’s disorted through a nationalist lens. I would think that many of them are also aware of relatives in the South who are Christian, even if they have never met them. The only people I can think of who might really have no idea who Jesus is might be some super isolated tribe in the Amazon or India, and even they are rare these days.

This is a post with words that have nothing to do with what you said. Sorry, needed to test and quote something. 

Actual commentary: I'm not sure those super isolated tribes even exist anymore. They all seem to have at least some interaction with the outside world. 

[Beermeet]

2 hours ago, Denim Jumper said:

#2, especially. I’ve come to realize that I don’t proselytize or “witness” because I’m not entirely sure of anything, when it comes to Christianity. Growing up atheist, none of this comes naturally to me; ironic that I ended up marrying a would-be fundie-lite pastor, who ended up leaving that scene for a liberal, mainline denomination. The Quaker faith ended up being the best fit for me, although I attended Catholic mass quite often, because I truly enjoy it and feel a Spiritual presence during mass.  

Love this!  I so agree!  Who am I to say I figured it all out?  Want to have a great discussion on the subject, respectfully?  I'm so willing.  Culture and religion; trying to figure out the human condition has been a major interest of mine for 27 years. I agree with many Quaker ways and even though I am an ex-Catholic, I do enjoy mass and feel a higher spirit throughout the service.   I see so many similarities,  no matter when or how *we* do life or worship or not worship.  It all honestly makes me feel connected to each other, but, also incredibly sad.  I'm sad and disappointed in *us* because the focus is on the differences, pride and greed.  Deep in my heart, since I was a very young child, I truly felt that *we* chose the wrong path; we are doing life on Earth wrong.  It bothers me, too much.  I'm really not articulating myself well considering how deeply I feel about coexisting, working together and using/ celebrating our strenths through our differences to create a beautiful life.   What pops into my head a lot is the Native Americans pre European invasion.  If the settlers would've took on their ways instead of slaughtering and conquering, how life would be now.  Respect of the land that sustains us.  Women were a vital part of daily life, respect.  Idk, hard for me to type my thoughts accurately. 

*Cue "Imagine" from John Lennon playing. Peace and love.

  

[BlackSheep]

When people come to our door with tracts, I hold our small dog, who puts on a ferocious show with strangers. (He was adopted and has major trust issues due to how he was treated in the past.) If I don't hold him, he'll charge at them. Then I say, "Sorry, he doesn't like new people!", take the tract, shut the door, and discard the tract.

It makes me uncomfortable to be on the receiving end... why would I do that to someone else?

Like others here, I prefer helpful actions. Visiting someone in the hospital, sending someone a card, or just being that "ear" or "shoulder" that someone needs. Those are things that anyone can do - no matter what your beliefs/non-beliefs are.

[Fascinated]

3 minutes ago, BlackSheep said:

When people come to our door with tracts, I hold our small dog, who puts on a ferocious show with strangers. (He was adopted and has major trust issues due to how he was treated in the past.) If I don't hold him, he'll charge at them. Then I say, "Sorry, he doesn't like new people!", take the tract, shut the door, and discard the tract.

It makes me uncomfortable to be on the receiving end... why would I do that to someone else?

Like others here, I prefer helpful actions. Visiting someone in the hospital, sending someone a card, or just being that "ear" or "shoulder" that someone needs. Those are things that anyone can do - no matter what your beliefs/non-beliefs are.

Exactly. None of us should require any brand of religion to tell us how to be a good person. We are all humans sharing this tiny planet. And we mostly tear each other apart, often in the name of religion. Anyway, if you see me please me don’t give me a tract. We can all be nice, loving, sensitive, helpful and thoughtful people with or without religion. And I think that’s reflected in this entire discussion.  I do wish we had more atheists here though. We have, I think, only 5 members in the non-religion club. I wish more people would join there so we could have some conversations. I chose my username due to this - religion in general  truly fascinates me.  People are fascinating  I’m fascinated.  

I’ve really enjoyed reading everyone’s comments. (Except Lori’s, of course.)

[Lgirlrocks]

Does she not realize that god only covered Adam and Eve because they first covered themselves? Does she not realize that biblical modesty is a mindset too?

[December]

2 hours ago, Curious said:

I have never thought heaven sounded that great, even as a practicing Catholic.  It seems like it would be super boring and I'd be stuck with a bunch of people that think they are superior because of their religiosity.

Someone I knew was always forced to go to a fairly out-there church by her parents as a kid. They'd always talk about Heaven being a lot of repetitive praying and singing that sounded boring to her, and that turned her off the whole concept! Talk about backfiring! 

[Fascinated]

13 minutes ago, Lgirlrocks said:

Does she not realize that god only covered Adam and Eve because they first covered themselves? Does she not realize that biblical modesty is a mindset too?

Yeah, why didn’t god make Adam and Eve fully dressed if nakedness is bad?

Oh, it’s not bad because they were ‘married’. 

Oh, right. Interesting. Makes sense. 

Wait - SIN!  Sin changed everything. Porn! Lust!  Fornication (different from sex, I’m assuming)! Shame and nakedness!

Thong-wearimg sluts on the beach make Jesus cry.

So cover up, ‘women’, mkay?

 

[SuperNova]

From Lori's blog today: 

"One brave woman on Facebook is continually speaking truth on her newsfeed. One day she wrote:

WHO HAS A PROBLEM WITH THIS SCRIPTURE?"

There is no room for a thoughtful, open dialogue if this is how you begin. And Lori calls this behavior "brave". Not surprising since there is never discussion with the godly mentor, if you disagree with Lori, you hate god and his ways.

[Beermeet]

12 minutes ago, Fascinated said:

Exactly. None of us should require any brand of religion to tell us how to be a good person. We are all humans sharing this tiny planet. And we mostly tear each other apart, often in the name of religion. Anyway, if you see me please me don’t give me a tract. We can all be nice, loving, sensitive, helpful and thoughtful people with or without religion. And I think that’s reflected in this entire discussion.  I do wish we had more atheists here though. We have, I think, only 5 members in the non-religion club. I wish more people would join there so we could have some conversations. I chose my username due to this - religion in general  truly fascinates me.  People are fascinating  I’m fascinated.  

I’ve really enjoyed reading everyone’s comments. (Except Lori’s, of course.)

Just wondering.....as an atheist,  do you feel connected to deceased loved ones?  That notion is more how I feel about the spiritual aspect of life.  A good fit for the 3 times something or someone that filled me with a supernatural will, focus and strength.   Or, that was just my brain doing what brains do in extra intense times.  Eh, I don't worry about it too much.  We'll all know when we die what happens,  if anything.  

 

[DaisyD]

33 minutes ago, Fascinated said:

Exactly. None of us should require any brand of religion to tell us how to be a good person. We are all humans sharing this tiny planet. And we mostly tear each other apart, often in the name of religion. Anyway, if you see me please me don’t give me a tract. We can all be nice, loving, sensitive, helpful and thoughtful people with or without religion. And I think that’s reflected in this entire discussion.  I do wish we had more atheists here though. We have, I think, only 5 members in the non-religion club. I wish more people would join there so we could have some conversations. I chose my username due to this - religion in general  truly fascinates me.  People are fascinating  I’m fascinated.  

I’ve really enjoyed reading everyone’s comments. (Except Lori’s, of course.)

When I was about 6 I asked my mom if Jesus was real (we lived in a predominantly Hispanic Catholic area, so I saw pictures of a guy on people's walls and asked what were probably awkward questions). She said he was a teacher who probably lived a long time ago. God, for me, is the unseen force that set everything in motion so I'm not exactly atheist, but I'm pretty damn close. My entire extended family are atheist though, and i married someone raised in Assembly of God. I think there's plenty of gradation of faith here for some real conversation if you want.

[Fascinated]

10 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

Just wondering.....as an atheist,  do you feel connected to deceased loved ones?  That notion is more how I feel about the spiritual aspect of life.  A good fit for the 3 times something or someone that filled me with a supernatural will, focus and strength.   Or, that was just my brain doing what brains do in extra intense times.  Eh, I don't worry about it too much.  We'll all know when we die what happens,  if anything.  

 

Beermeet, no, I don’t. I don’t believe that I will see my mum or my little boy when I die.  What I think is that I will feel exactly as I did all those eons before I was born. I had no feelings, no awareness, no nothing. It’s not as comforting, I know, but it doesn’t scare me because I will know nothing about it. I will just cease to be. The idea that everyone somehow ends up with deceased loved ones is, in my opinion, the primary reason why religion still exists. People want that comfort. I get it, I really do.  But I don’t believe it.

8 minutes ago, DaisyD said:

When I was about 6 I asked my mom if Jesus was real (we lived in a predominantly Hispanic Catholic area, so I saw pictures of a guy on people's walls and asked what were probably awkward questions). She said he was a teacher who probably lived a long time ago. God, for me, is the unseen force that set everything in motion so I'm not exactly atheist, but I'm pretty damn close. My entire extended family are atheist though, and i married someone raised in Assembly of God. I think there's plenty of gradation of faith here for some real conversation if you want.

I want. I find it so interesting. 

[Sarah92]

With the recent back and forth I've hesitated to post because I feel like the respect I've seen over the past few months of being here has broken down to a degree. However, that could just be my conflict avoidant nature, I don't like fighting or conflict at all. So it's probably just my problem and I could totally just be over analyzing it. So please forgive me if I am. 

But you know I get the anger, frustration, and annoyance.  I really do. I'm a Christian and a seminary student at that. However, after my entire family was essentially pushed out of a church that some of them had been at for 14+ years (my immediate family was there for 12). I felt devastated and betrayed. I was and still am angry. I've been angry at God quite a bit too for others things. I'm still not at the point where I'm ready to volunteer again and I just recently signed the visitor card to a church that I'd been attending for months. I've wanted to remain invisible in the at church as I healed. 

I realized that all those churchy answers we give for suffering just don't always work. I've had to realize I don't have all the answers. It's not always a sunshine,rainbows, always have to be happy type of faith. Sometimes it's dark and full of uncertainty. But I think that's part of life. It's helped me grow to be a better person. 

I would never assume a Catholic isn't a Christian. I try to confront those who say such things. I've been on those evangelical mission trips when I was younger. Most of them simply involved helping the community. For example, my church helped with Katrina clean up and helped run the VBS with a local church so the church kids had something to go to.

I did one foreign mission at 18 but I'm currently in the middle of finding my current stance on that. I've shifted a number of my views over the past two years and I'm in the process of figuring others out. I don't want to just regurgitate what I've been told. 

That being said I haaaaatee things like "just pray more" or "maybe if you just trusted God more". It's lacking empathy and highly insulting. I've learned to sit with people in their pain, let them cry and then act in ways to help them. While I'm debating my views on missions I know I'm responsible for acting in such a way as to glorify God even if I'm not directly talking about him. Kindness, compassion, empathy, acts of service, seeking the truth, and standing with the marginalized are all things I hold to be important. If someone asks me then I have no problem with telling them, nor will I hide my beliefs. But I am mindful and try to pay attention to what people believe.

I tend to tell people that I will almost always look at what the church is doing before I go about criticizing people who don't claim Christianity. Are they trying to force people to live up to a standard that they themselves don't meet at all? That's why I dislike what Lori teaches. She tries to force women to live up to an entirely unbiblical, impossible standard that she doesn't even live by. 

Goodness this is a long post. In summary, I'm a confused mess who just tries to live out what I'm certain of. I'm certain of love God and others so that's what I try to do. 

[Curious]

9 hours ago, fluffy said:

Peeping Toms? You don't say...

I think @Ken needs to remind his deluded wife that what she sees on the box in their family room is just pretend, make believe, a flight of fancy, fake, etc.   we aren't really looking at a real couple having sex.

The only person that seems to be peeping in windows is LORI.  Since she seems to think this is a negative thing, it makes me question why she does it and then posts about it on top of that.

[DaisyD]

I do too. I started learning Hebrew in th grade because one of my friends was Jewish. I'm also fascinated by it. For the record, my hope is that the afterlife is something like "The 10th Insight", but I can't shake the feeling that it's like you said, nothingness. In some ways, I also find that comforting. It won't matter, because everything will cease to matter.

[Beermeet]

@Fascinated. What you said is the most proof we have.  Nothingness.  It's a difficult thing to wrap my head around.  Because, I want more.  I want it all to mean something.  But, I'm very aware of reality and I also agree with you.  But, then, I don't.   That's why I just live, learn and don't really focus on the "what ifs" too much.  No one knows.  No one.  There is no handbook like in Beetlejuice, the movie.  Bummer!

[Curious]

10 hours ago, EowynW said:

A beautiful catholic service on a vacation weekend was the pivotal moment in us leaving Baptistville. We are now attending a Methodist church.  

Before my mom married my (step)dad, I went to a Methodist church with my grandma.  I have very fond memories of it and if I were to ever decide that I believed (I vacillate between thinking I'm agnostic and atheist.  Sometimes I think I'm just scared to say I'm atheist.  Sometimes I think I believe in some kind of higher power, not necessarily the Christian God exactly) I would go back to the Methodist church.

I was an only child so I was often taken to "adult" events and was the only child there.  I loved when the church ladies got together and did baking or crafts.  Pot lucks at the church are very fond memories, as well.

I hope you find what you are looking for there EowynW

 

[DaisyD]

7 minutes ago, Sarah92 said:

With the recent back and forth I've hesitated to post because I feel like the respect I've seen over the past few months of being here has broken down to a degree. However, that could just be my conflict avoidant nature, I don't like fighting or conflict at all. So it's probably just my problem and I could totally just be over analyzing it. So please forgive me if I am. 

But you know I get the anger, frustration, and annoyance.  I really do. I'm a Christian and a seminary student at that. However, after my entire family was essentially pushed out of a church that some of them had been at for 14+ years (my immediate family was there for 12). I felt devastated and betrayed. I was and still am angry. I've been angry at God quite a bit too for others things. I'm still not at the point where I'm ready to volunteer again and I just recently signed the visitor card to a church that I'd been attending for months. I've wanted to remain invisible in the at church as I healed. 

I realized that all those churchy answers we give for suffering just don't always work. I've had to realize I don't have all the answers. It's not always a sunshine,rainbows, always have to be happy type of faith. Sometimes it's dark and full of uncertainty. But I think that's part of life. It's helped me grow to be a better person. 

I would never assume a Catholic isn't a Christian. I try to confront those who say such things. I've been on those evangelical mission trips when I was younger. Most of them simply involved helping the community. For example, my church helped with Katrina clean up and helped run the VBS with a local church so the church kids had something to go to.

I did one foreign mission at 18 but I'm currently in the middle of finding my current stance on that. I've shifted a number of my views over the past two years and I'm in the process of figuring others out. I don't want to just regurgitate what I've been told. 

That being said I haaaaatee things like "just pray more" or "maybe if you just trusted God more". It's lacking empathy and highly insulting. I've learned to sit with people in their pain, let them cry and then act in ways to help them. While I'm debating my views on missions I know I'm responsible for acting in such a way as to glorify God even if I'm not directly talking about him. Kindness, compassion, empathy, acts of service, seeking the truth, and standing with the marginalized are all things I hold to be important. If someone asks me then I have no problem with telling them, nor will I hide my beliefs. But I am mindful and try to pay attention to what people believe.

I tend to tell people that I will almost always look at what the church is doing before I go about criticizing people who don't claim Christianity. Are they trying to force people to live up to a standard that they themselves don't meet at all? That's why I dislike what Lori teaches. She tries to force women to live up to an entirely unbiblical, impossible standard that she doesn't even live by. 

Goodness this is a long post. In summary, I'm a confused mess who just tries to live out what I'm certain of. I'm certain of love God and others so that's what I try to do. 

Faith is just that, faith. I would still be an absolute atheist if I hadn't been through what I had in my life. For me, faith is much more about what we do in this life than about what comes after. It's about the human experience and what we choose to do with what comes our way. I believe that, in the end, what really matters is what your intentions were. I don't mean on the surface, deep down, were you really trying to make it better for others, or for your own glory. That's one huge reason I despise proselytizing. It's not really about helping.

[Curious]

23 hours ago, slp said:

If I speak to someone who is having a hard time I might say (if it felt right) "You know, when I've had a hard time in my life, I was really helped by my relationship with God. Can I tell you about it?"  etc.  

I don't particularly have a problem with the way this is phrased.  If someone that I was talking to deeply enough for them to realize I was going through a rough time offered to talk to me about their relationship with God AND gave me the out of being able to say thank you, but I'm not interested, as in the example above, it would not bother me.

I grew up with a chronically ill mom (MS among other things) and SO many people told her if she just prayed harder, prayed the right way, prayed at the right time, prayed, prayed, prayed she would get better.   Given that my mom already was not handling her health issues well at all, I found this to be a form of psychological torture and that was when I was a teen.

Naturally, she did not magically get better and she lost a little more of herself everytime someone suggested if she just PRAYED everything would be great, to the point where I hardly recognized her as my mom and it was a big part of our estrangement because her behavior toward me changed and as a teen it was hard to be told by adults who were supposed to be on my side that *I* was the cause of her destruction.  Things that she would have stood up for me before she suddenly agreed with anyone but me and suddenly I was a horrible, horrible, trouble causing teenager! (In reality, I spent many a day getting home from school and going directly to the hospital to spend the rest of the afternoon/evening visiting my mom, baking cookies for her because she really enjoyed them when she was in the hospital, etc.)

Fast forward to my being disabled at 29 and the SCORES of "if you just pray....."  Yeah BTDT I already know that doesn't work, but thanks for the thought asshole.

If people were evangelizing in a more general way I might actually listen.  Not because they are going to change my mind, but because I have always found different religions interesting.  When our 7th Day Adventist (I think that's right) "helper" (read maid) and I would talk about the differences in religion, I found them fascinating.  Once she gave me a book (child friendly, I think I was maybe 12 or so at the time) that explained the religion in an easy to understand way, I thought my dad was going to fire her.  My mom would have lost her shit at that time, so she stayed and I would have felt really bad if she had been fired because I ASKED for the book, she wasn't trying to lead me astray.    In one of our talks, she mentioned they had the book and I said I would like to read it (because it was a book.  it could have been almost any topic and I would have read it as a kid).

When you come at me like it's MY fault I'm disabled you are not likely to be met with a happy and willing to listen bunny

[Chocolatedefrauded]

Atheist here. I don’t try to convert others to my beliefs so please don’t try to convert me. It’s pretty simple.

I believe we should do good things, treat each other kindly, because it makes us better people. More human. Not to please an unseen god. We can only work on ourselves so I think we should concentrate on that. I don’t understand the obsession with sin.

The end of life being nothing is ok with me. It means the end of suffering, pain, doubts, & hatred. I believe we live on in the memories of those we loved & the things we did to make the world a better place.

[MarblesMom]

1 hour ago, Fascinated said:

Anyway, if you see me please me don’t give me a tract.

I will leave you a nice bottle of Chardonnay and a nice card 

[Destiny]

I will leave you a nice bottle of Chardonnay and a nice card  [emoji4]

Can I come to this party too?

[Fascinated]

1 minute ago, MarblesMom said:

I will leave you a nice bottle of Chardonnay and a nice card 

That I would enjoy. 

[Curious]

9 hours ago, fluffy said:

@foreign fundie Please for the love of God stop proselytizing. It is deeply offensive and a really fucked up use of this space. 

I appreciate that everyone feels differently about these kinds of topics, but FJ allows opinions of all kinds and @foreign fundie was asked a direct question.  It's a bit unfair to tell her not to answer in the way she feels expresses her opinion.

It's one post.  If it turns into a problem, you can trust that one of the administrative team will be on it.

(This holds true for every forum on FJ, not just in this instance.)

[PennySycamore]

@louisa05, after my baby daughter died, we got this odious book in the mail "Why Your Little One is in Heaven" the premise of which is she died so that my husband and I could "come to know Jesus."  We were Catholic and this was sent to us anonymously. At the time, we lived in this neighborhood dominated by a Bob Jones associated church.  Whoever sent that piece of crap to us, well, it was a shitty thing to do and it was very upsetting.  My husband threw the book in the garbage where it belonged.  None of those good fundie neighbors came to either of Katherine's services (wake or funeral Mass), btw.  They might have gotten Catholic cooties, doncha know?

Years ago on the old Kate and Allie show, Chip's new kitten died and Allie had to explain what happened to the kitten at death.  She explained that some people believed that the kitten would go to Heaven and other people thought that death was more like a light that had been switched off.  I liked that.  IDK, maybe that was the start of my questioning.