Lina's back!!!!

[Jewess]

I guess the observant Jews that I know (not so much "know," but have encountered) are more well off than Lina & AJ, so... I don't know how plausible this stuff is for them.

And quite a lot of observant jews are a lot less well off.

You can get an oven with "Sabbath mode," which will turn on to heat food at a preset time. Also, people use timers on lights so they go on and off at preset times.

Reheat, but not cook. And only foods that aren't liquid based, and according to some interpretations of the law, completely dry, with no sauce.

[Jewess]

Finally, when Jewish folks talk about modesty - wearing headcoverings, etc - is that something that is expected at all times, or just when one is in public? I seem to recall that Anna T. talked about having her head uncovered at home in front of her husband. Can you uncover your head or have bare arms/legs at home around your children?

Modesty as a trait is a value, no matter where you are, and Jews are expected to be modest before God.

However, the specific modesty laws only apply to when you're in front of non immediate family member males that are over the age of 9 or bar mitzva, depending on who you ask, not in front of women or in front of your husband or children or siblings or parents.

Many, because of the trait of modesty that they have, still follow most of the modesty laws in front of family members as well, but some are more lax.

I know that I will pretty much uncover most things in front of my kids (and will uncover everything in front of my husband), but I'm aware that it may be better to be stricter, I just would rather be comfortable than strict. (Posted as I sit here near my kids and their playdates in my tank top, my belly showing, and my hair uncovered.)

I do try to be stricter with my dad and brothers who I don't live with, so I generally keep my hair covered around them, and follow most of the modesty laws around them, but will wear short sleeves or go sockless in their presence. When I lived with them, I was more lax, and if I accidentally come out of my bedroom with my hair uncovered and they're around, I don't flip out. I'll just go back in and cover it.

I follow the strict modesty rules in front of my husband's brothers and father and my sisters' husbands, because they don't fall within the category of permitted relatives.

[Jewess]

Yep, there are specific prayers before meals, after meals, when you wake up in the morning... I'm not sure if there are any that you say specifically before bed. When I was little my parents had me say the shema (the most important Jewish prayer) before I went to bed each night and we also did that when I went to a Jewish sleepaway camp, but you are supposed to say it once in the morning and once in the evening, but I don't think it is specified that it has to be said before bed.

There actually is. Its called Kriyat Shema al Hamita- the bedtime recitation of the Shema. Its not just the Shema, there are other unrelated passages and blessings, etc.

http://mysiddur.com/showSiddur.php?layo ... tah&page=0

Here's a link to the prayer. Sorry, all in hebrew.

[Jewess]

Oh boy. So many responses from me right in a row. Thats what happens when I respond to certain posts on a 20 page thread. Oh well.

[pomology]

There actually is. Its called Kriyat Shema al Hamita- the bedtime recitation of the Shema. Its not just the Shema, there are other unrelated passages and blessings, etc.

http://mysiddur.com/showSiddur.php?layo ... tah&page=0

Here's a link to the prayer. Sorry, all in hebrew.

No prob. I can read Hebrew. And I'm not sure this particular nuance of Jewish life is that interesting to anybody else. Well, that explains something I've always wondered about. Why you say shema at bedtime when I was pretty sure saying it at shacharit and maariv fulfilled the twice a day requirement.

[Jewess]

No prob. I can read Hebrew. And I'm not sure this particular nuance of Jewish life is that interesting to anybody else. Well, that explains something I've always wondered about. Why you say shema at bedtime when I was pretty sure saying it at shacharit and maariv fulfilled the twice a day requirement.

Why do you say it at bedtime? Honestly I didn't know the answer to that one, so I googled it.

According to wikipedia "Before going to sleep, the first paragraph of the Shema is recited. This is not only a commandment directly given in the Bible (in Deuteronomy 6:6–7), but is also alluded to from verses such as "Commune with your own heart upon your bed" (Psalms 4:4).

Some also have the custom to read all three paragraphs, along with a whole list of sections from Psalms, Tachanun, and other prayers. Altogether this is known as the Kerias Shema She'al Hamita. According to the Arizal, reading this prayer with great concentration is also effective in cleansing one from sin. This is discussed in the Tanya.[6]"

[FaustianSlip]

This is getting really nitpicky and into what I would call Jewish geekery, but is the custom of doing all three paragraphs of the Shema, along with the other selections of Psalms and such, primarily an Chassidic thing, or is it pretty much standard across the board? Or do other Orthodox folks just do the first paragraph? I know the Conservative siddur has a "nighttime service" (not Ma'ariv, I think it's titled, "Arvit" in the siddur), so maybe that has it in there, but in all honesty, I haven't prayed that service often enough to know, and I don't have my Siddur handy to check.

Personally, I'm still trying to figure out how it is that Lina doesn't set any time aside to daven during the day. I mean, I understand that davening doesn't do it for everyone, but it seems very bizarre to me that someone as hung up on religion in general and Judaism in particular as Lina doesn't take time out of her day to pray. The bar for women is pretty low regarding daily prayer requirements, and she's at home all day. To me, it's one of the easiest mitzvot to pick up in the sense that as long as you're willing to carve some time out of your day to do it, that's really all it takes. I guess I shouldn't be entirely surprised that Lina's far more interested in making a big production of following all of the external, very public stuff while blithely ignoring something as fundamental (and personal) as prayer. :roll:

[lilah]

Remember the good old days when Lina lived at her parents' house and did whatever she wanted and then bitched about them for letting her do whatever she wanted? Because she wanted them to MAKE her stay home and TELL her college was bad and CHOOSE a beau for her? That was so stupid that it was almost awesome. Except for her parents

Yeah my favorite was when she wanted to get her nose pierced so she put together a whole presentation complete with scriptural proof that getting a nose ring was okayed in the bible and her parents kind of rolled their eyes and said "you're an adult, it's your nose, do what you want with it"

However Lina's parents were also convenient she blame her parents when her half-baked/ill researched approaches to Judaism weren't working, they were totally keeping her down from being a proper fake Jew. Like how they were totally keeping her from celebrating Yom Kippur last year because they didn't want to fast with her.

[Jewess]

This is getting really nitpicky and into what I would call Jewish geekery, but is the custom of doing all three paragraphs of the Shema, along with the other selections of Psalms and such, primarily an Chassidic thing, or is it pretty much standard across the board? Or do other Orthodox folks just do the first paragraph?

Its pretty much an across the board Orthodox thing. Though after saying one of the blessings you're not allowed to talk, so there actually are plenty of rabbis who say that married people shouldn't say those bedtime blessings because its good to talk to your spouse before bed.

Personally, I'm still trying to figure out how it is that Lina doesn't set any time aside to daven during the day. I mean, I understand that davening doesn't do it for everyone, but it seems very bizarre to me that someone as hung up on religion in general and Judaism in particular as Lina doesn't take time out of her day to pray. The bar for women is pretty low regarding daily prayer requirements, and she's at home all day. To me, it's one of the easiest mitzvot to pick up in the sense that as long as you're willing to carve some time out of your day to do it, that's really all it takes. I guess I shouldn't be entirely surprised that Lina's far more interested in making a big production of following all of the external, very public stuff while blithely ignoring something as fundamental (and personal) as prayer. :roll:

Maybe. I'm pretty strict when it comes to mitzvot, but I'll admit that I really, really, really fall short when it comes to prayer. I prefer to do my little talking to God throughout the day instead of a more formalized service, but I realize its something I should be working on, especially because my son's should be doing the official prayers, even if I as a woman have a dispensation not to.

[FaustianSlip]

Just grabbed my Conservative siddur, and it also lists the supplementary texts along with the first paragraph of the Shema- looks identical to the version that was posted (along with a greatly shortened version for kids). The more you know! Also, Wikipedia tells me that "Arvit" is just a synonym for "Ma'ariv." Duh. I don't think I've ever seen Ma'ariv listed that way in a siddur other than Sim Shalom, though. Weird.

I'd like to get into the habit of saying the Shema right before bed, but I've got enough to do getting to the point where I can daven the whole Amidah in Hebrew. I really need to be less illiterate. Meh.

As far as regular davening goes, I'll freely admit that I might put more emphasis on it because I generally like davening, but at the same time, it doesn't take a whole lot to crack open a siddur and do, say, the Shema and the Amidah. It's not even like she has to mess with tallis or tefillin or anything. I also find it kind of hypocritical that not that long ago, she was randomly shoehorning quotes from the Amidah into a post, but it turns out now that she's not even saying it regularly. Whatever. I'm not being very charitable, and I should probably just quit while I'm behind.

[pomology]

Actually, halacha is "Jewish law", but if you're referring to many specific laws, it certainly does get pluralized.

Some do, some don't. There's no religious requirement for that, but there are kaballistic reasons for it. My husband wears his kippah to bed, but just his regular one, and it falls off while he's sleeping and every morning involves a hunt for his kippah before he goes to work. A special sleep kippa that doesn't fall off and doesn't involve losing his kippah every night/morning would make our mornings that much less stressful.

I guess I understand that if you're referring to many specific laws, halacha is pluralized, but every time Lina used "halachot" in that post it seemed to me that she was referring to the body of law as a whole and should therefore just be saying "halacha". Her way of phrasing things just made it seem to me like she didn't understand that halacha refer to the entire body of law. Maybe I'm wrong about what she was trying to say, but it strikes me as very ignorant of proper terminology even if "halachot" is a legit way to refer to something. If you know what I mean. I'm not explaining myself very clearly, I don't think, though.

Also, may I ask WHY your husband wears his kippah to bed? Like, what kabbalistic reasons are there? And I'd wager that Lina and TT don't know shit about kabbalah and probably think that wearing a kippah to bed is a religious requirement. And it seems like it would be a lot easier to wear a regular kippah under a nightcap or some other head-wear that was specifically designed to be worn to bed.

[Jewess]

In the way she wrote it, both Halacha and Halachot are correct. Saying "We follow Halacha" and "We follow all the halachot" are both totally correct.

As for why my husband wears a kippa to bed, I honestly have no clue. Probably the same reason he wears one all the time- as a reminder that God is always above you, even in the bedroom.

And a sleep kippa is pretty much a night cap. ;)

[Ralar]

What about cholent? Cholent is a very traditional Shabbat meal and it is not "dry."

[Jewess]

What about cholent? Cholent is a very traditional Shabbat meal and it is not "dry."

Food that was put on a fire before the sabbath started, and wasn't mixed at all until it is completely cooked Sabbath morning is allowed, but you can't reheat, for example, meatballs and tomato sauce.

[stonefruit]

Food that was put on a fire before the sabbath started, and wasn't mixed at all until it is completely cooked Sabbath morning is allowed, but you can't reheat, for example, meatballs and tomato sauce.

If your cholent is dry, you're doin' it RONG.

:-)

[Ralar]

If your cholent is dry, you're doin' it RONG.

:-)

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[Angri-la]

So, why don't Lina and Love become Baha'is? They would be able to believe that Jesus is a Messiah, but, then, they would have to believe that Muhammad and Zoroaster were the same spirit as Jesus, as is their prophet, Bahá'u'lláh. They believe the only thing that changes with the prophets are the social teachings of the day:

http://info.bahai.org/article-1-4-0-10.html

"For Bahá'ís of Jewish background, Bahá'u'lláh is the appearance of the promised "Lord of Hosts" come down "with ten thousands of saints." A descendent of Abraham and a "scion from the root of Jesse," Bahá'u'lláh has come to lead the way for nations to "beat their swords into plowshares." Many features of Bahá'u'lláh's involuntary exile to the Land of Israel, along with other historical events during Bahá'u'lláh's life and since are seen as fulfilling numerous prophecies in the Bible. "

So, Lina and Love: Go join the Baha'is! You can have your Torah cake, and eat of the Body of Christ as well.

*just a lil bit snarky.

[Ralar]

So, why don't Lina and Love become Baha'is? They would be able to believe that Jesus is a Messiah, but, then, they would have to believe that Muhammad and Zoroaster were the same spirit as Jesus, as is their prophet, Bahá'u'lláh. They believe the only thing that changes with the prophets are the social teachings of the day:

http://info.bahai.org/article-1-4-0-10.html

"For Bahá'ís of Jewish background, Bahá'u'lláh is the appearance of the promised "Lord of Hosts" come down "with ten thousands of saints." A descendent of Abraham and a "scion from the root of Jesse," Bahá'u'lláh has come to lead the way for nations to "beat their swords into plowshares." Many features of Bahá'u'lláh's involuntary exile to the Land of Israel, along with other historical events during Bahá'u'lláh's life and since are seen as fulfilling numerous prophecies in the Bible. "

So, Lina and Love: Go join the Baha'is! You can have your Torah cake, and eat of the Body of Christ as well.

*just a lil bit snarky.

I suspect a Torah-observant Baha'is with a special affection for Yeshua would be an especially special snowflake!

[pomology]

In the way she wrote it, both Halacha and Halachot are correct. Saying "We follow Halacha" and "We follow all the halachot" are both totally correct.

As for why my husband wears a kippa to bed, I honestly have no clue. Probably the same reason he wears one all the time- as a reminder that God is always above you, even in the bedroom.

And a sleep kippa is pretty much a night cap. ;)

As to what I bolded, yes, but because I'm an uncharitable judgmental bitch, I take it to mean that she has no idea that "We follow halacha" would be just as correct.

[demgirl]

I do try to be stricter with my dad and brothers who I don't live with, so I generally keep my hair covered around them, and follow most of the modesty laws around them, but will wear short sleeves or go sockless in their presence.

Can I ask why? This, to me, is sort of tantamount to the fundies getting freaked out if their daughter is in a bathing suit around her brothers. I don't understand it -- it's family. If you go uncovered around children or your husband, why not with your father or brothers? Trying to get some perspective on this b/c it's one of the things the fundies do that I truly do not understand. Obviously your answer will vary from theirs, but I'd love to get a better understanding from someone on this.

[bionicmlle]

Wow - I hope Lina is studying this thread closely! It's like a crash course in halacha -- I think she'll learn a thing or two. Wouldn't it be AWESOME if Lina started 3-4 volume posts (a la Candy!) on crap like "Why we believe in night-time kippot - even during sex!" or "Why we strictly follow the rules for women's davening."

:::hi Lina!:::

[Ralar]

From Lina's YK post:

There was such a spirit of joy and tranquility following Shabbat and Yom Kippur. My husband and I both felt it.  Our congregational leader told us something very interesting about one of his rebbes, Shlomo Carlebach. He said that Rabbi Carlebach would since, dance, and play music on Yom Kippur because he truly believed his sins were forgiven on this day.  How much more so should we, as followers of our Rebbe Yeshua feel the same way? There are many different opinions within the Jewish community as to how we should conduct ourselves during Yom Kippur. Some suggest we look sullen and sad, while others, like the leader of our shul, feel that Yom Kippur should be a day of joy. It is the Day of Atonement and the day our sins are forgiven!

. :doh:

Reb Shlomo would roll over in his grave if he knew one of his students was an Orthodox Messianic Rabbi. My father was friends with Reb Shlomo. My rebbetzen is Reb Shlomo's niece. I know Reb Shlomo would not sing, dance, or play music to show joy with how Lina and her ilk are perverting his religion.

Reb Shlomo was known as the Musical Rabbi and he wrote many of the modern tunes used today, but I don't think he played music on Shabbat or YK. I could be wrong about that.

[OrangeTulips]

From Lina's YK post:

. :doh:

Reb Shlomo would roll over in his grave if he knew one of his students was an Orthodox Messianic Rabbi. My father was friends with Reb Shlomo. My rebbetzen is Reb Shlomo's niece. I know Reb Shlomo would not sing, dance, or play music to show joy with how Lina and her ilk are perverting his religion.

Reb Shlomo was known as the Musical Rabbi and he wrote many of the modern tunes used today, but I don't think he played music on Shabbat or YK. I could be wrong about that.

Yes, there are people who sing and dance, but only AFTER Yom Kippur is over. (In other words, that night.) I think someone didn't read the memo from Reb Shlomo well enough. I guess Lina and Tony aren't that unusual!

[makepeace]

After reading this gigantic thread, and acknowledging the offense Lina has caused to some people, this still goes through my head:

"Leave Lina alone!" aka "Leave Britney alone!"

[Jewess]

Can I ask why? This, to me, is sort of tantamount to the fundies getting freaked out if their daughter is in a bathing suit around her brothers. I don't understand it -- it's family. If you go uncovered around children or your husband, why not with your father or brothers? Trying to get some perspective on this b/c it's one of the things the fundies do that I truly do not understand. Obviously your answer will vary from theirs, but I'd love to get a better understanding from someone on this.

Just a personal comfort level. Because I dress modestly all the time, I feel uncomfortable uncovering areas that I usually keep covered around other people. This applies to everyone, both women and men.

I don't cover around my husband for obvious reasons, and I don't around my sons because I live with them and its hard to keep covered all the time, but I'll admit, I also don't always feel 100% comfortable showing them parts of my body I usually keep covered, but I'm too lazy to do anything about that.

See the thing is, modesty isn't just about laws. Its also a trait that gets ingrained in you from years of dressing modestly, so that even if something is totally allowed, you may prefer not to do it, and that's fine, so long as it isn't causing you any problems. And just because something makes me uncomfortable doesn't mean I think other people should be made uncomfortable by that same thing. Its just a personal sensitivity.

There are some people that this personal sensitivity extends to even when they're alone in a house, etc... they won't be uncovered, because they want to be modest before God, and they'll get dressed under a sheet. But uhm yea, that seems a tad silly to me, because if God can see through the walls, He can see under your sheet, and see under your clothes as well. Lol. But if they don't feel comfortable in the nude, well, then I guess thats their own personal hangup. And personal hangups are fine as long as they don't affect other people, like your kids, your spouse, or whatever.

For the record, I'd be totally cool with brothers seeing their sisters in bathing suits. I'm not szuszu.