Turpins 3: 2 Monsters, 13 Victims (WARNING abuse and torture)

[Anonymousguest]

15 minutes ago, smittykins said:

I could be wrong, but I think the inspection was required because the Monsters had registered their home as a private school. 

I believe this is a misrepresentation/misunderstanding in the media. They were homeschooling, in CA there are a few options for homeschooling and calling yourself a day school is one of them. No inspection was necessary. 

[EmCatlyn]

6 hours ago, quiversR4hunting said:

The news has reported the children don't know basic life skills. If that is true for the adult kids, then a guardian is most appropriate. We don't know who or how much each child is delayed. A guardian doesn't infantilize them if they have never been taught to adult. All the kids will need to learn how to clean, what does clean mean (for self and household), food preparation & care, and all hygiene aspects (basing this off the news reports of the house). Let alone all the other things they missed.

Question - why would the fire marshal do a yearly check up on a residence? Is that a law in CA? In my area the fire marshal only inspects businesses. If it is a residential new construction the building code inspector is the one that checks for adequate fire alarms, etc.

I wonder what they mean by "basic life skills."  Some  "life skills" (brushing teeth, for example) can be learned in less than a month even if a person is intellectually or emotionally handicapped.  Others (managing money, setting and keeping a budget, etc.) take a certain amount of knowledge (simple arithmetic, how money works) and ability to plan that would require more time to develop even if the kiddult has the cognitive and emotional capacity to do so.  

My thought is that, serious brain damage aside, the 18-29 year old group may be moved out of guardianship within a year, simply because they will acquire the "basic life skills."  Judging from some of the homeless I run into in my volunteer work, being able to manage money and understanding how to fill out disability forms is not a "basic life skill," that can keep a person under care.

So while I think it is good that they are in guardianship for now, I worry that either they will be left on their own too soon or that the state will pass on the guardianship of the less competent "adults" to the relatives, just because I am sure the state doesn't want the headache of providing for these poor young people indefinitely.  But maybe I am being cynical.

And I worry that the relatives will not be the best guardians.  

Even if the relatives don't receive guardianship, I worry that the adult children may gravitate to their father or mother's family because they will be seeking connections with whatever little is "familiar" to them in the outside world and/or because they will be seeking authority figures to replace the parents. (They obviously minded the cruelty, but there is no sign that the Turpin children resented the authority. They probably took it for granted that parents have authority and that the authority figure is supposed to "protect" you, even if they were not experiencing "protection" but isolation and abuse.)

Anyway, I hope the state of California can provide protection and support for them for a long period of time.  

  

 

 

 

[EmCatlyn]

15 hours ago, church_of_dog said:

Per the conversation over on websleuths, the brother has written a book extolling the benefits of 21-day fasts.  Just doesn't seem like the healthiest mindset for these siblings, who not only need super nutritious food and enough of it, but they are at risk for all sorts of psychological food issues and they need a really healthy atmosphere around food.  I don't think that guy would offer that.

David Turpin's brother's book was further discussed in this link  from Inside Edition, which I posted earlier. 

Randy Turpin, in my view, is less interested in fame and fortune from this crisis than he is in preserving the credibility of his ministry and his position as president of a Christian college.  And I don't think he would really want to have custody over the kids, except insofar as he might be able to shut up criticisms about himself and his family.

One of the sisters, Elizabeth Flores, is a "motivational speaker" and Christian author whose books discuss how she was sexually abused as a child and and that she lost custody of her children for a while and "turned away from God."  Somewhere, early on, I read that she had used fasting to get closer to Christ after this difficult period.  I can't locate the source, but warning bells rang.

However, she seems to be is the only one of Louise's siblings that (so far) has not indicated that she wants to bring the children to live with her,  She does, however, has a lot of sanctimonious things to say about helping and protecting, etc. as well as some stuff about "forgiveness and healing" in her books that make me very nervous.  (She and a cousin were also part of the Dr. Oz interview which I haven't had to stomach to watch yet, but here is a report on Fox news.)    My reaction is that she should be kept away from the kids too.   

The other sister, Teresa Robinette, and the half-brother  Billy Lambert seemed at first to be more stable than Elizabeth Flores, but Robinette has certainly jumped on the publicity wagon and is the source of the story that Louise engaged in sex with men she met online with her husband's full approval.  Lambert has stated he wants to adopt the younger children.  Flores is going around saying that even if one member of the family can't take all of them, the kids should be split among blood relatives, not fostered with strangers.  I hope they are just talking about getting the kids because it makes them look good, not because they intend to follow through.

And I hope that any family claim to have custody of the kids will not delay finding the toddler and the next youngest long-term foster and/or adoptive homes. (I know I am repeating myself here, but I keep thinking about this...)

 

 

[FloraDoraDolly]

18 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

I wonder also.  Since the oldest son (who is around 26 or 27 now) reportedly had a 3.9 GPA  in commmunity college, he seems to have at least average cognitive abilities.

We can’t know about the others.  

What we do know is they have been kept uninformed and uneducated. We also know that starvation and environmental deprivation of other types can interfere with brain development. 

At this point it seems that none of them are capable of functioning in normal society, but it may be more through ignorance and emotional trauma than severe cognitive damage.  I don’t think any assessment of done in the next six months to a year could be definitive. Therapy and education can do wonders, especially for those under 25. 

I would guess that the 17-year-old who escaped and called 911 on the cell phone has normal cognitive abilities.

[seattlechic]

Ain't it  peachy how all these assholes suddenly grow a conscience and want to take these victims in? Uncles, aunts, where the fk where they when the kids were chained to their beds?

[scribble]

1 hour ago, EmCatlyn said:

One of the sisters, Elizabeth Flores, is a "motivational speaker" and Christian author whose books discuss how she was sexually abused as a child and and that she lost custody of her children for a while and "turned away from God."  Somewhere, early on, I read that she had used fasting to get closer to Christ after this difficult period.  I can't locate the source, but warning bells rang.

However, she seems to be is the only one of Louise's siblings that (so far) has not indicated that she wants to bring the children to live with her...

If she lost custody of her kids to the state (rather than to an ex through family court) she will not be approved as a placement by the state. (One of my (now adopted) kids had this exact thing happen -- a relative stepped forward for placement who had her kids removed at one time. Even though she had her kids back at that point and the state was no longer involved with her, they wouldn't accept her as a placement for my kiddo.)

It's the brother who is a doctor that troubles me... I suspect he will pass a homestudy because he probably looks good on paper... he doesn't seem like an appropriate choice for the kids, but sometimes the appropriateness of the placement takes a back seat to things looking good on paper.

[Curious]

I believe that one of the charges against the Turpin adults is abuse/neglect of a dependent adult, so as of right now I would guess the adults are not able to function independently.

That's not to say in a year or two with some good food, medical care and counseling behind them that they won't be able to live independently.

This is pretty much a game of wait and see because until they are able to eat normally and are at a much better weight, no one is going to really know what their full capabilities are going to be.  I imagine they will stay in state care until such time as they are either able to live independently or they will just stay in the facility where they are now having help with daily living as needed in the assisted living facility.  

I don't think they can legally do anything about a termination of rights until after the court case is resolved because while we all think (know) they are guilty as hell, that's not to say a jury will decide they are going away for life.   If they get off for some reason, they will be able to ask for reunification with the minor children (and maybe the adults if they are still considered dependents.  I'm not sure how that would be handled).  

I'm pretty doubtful they will be able/willing to jump through the necessary hoops for reunification, but legally, I believe they must be giving the opportunity.   My knowledge comes from working abuse and neglect cases at a State's Attorney's Office (think District Attorney or the like in your particular state), but that was over 20 years ago so things might have changed.

[Bad Wolf]

US  magazine has reported that Amy Duggar King wants to adopt all 13 children. 

[EmCatlyn]

6 hours ago, scribble said:

If she lost custody of her kids to the state (rather than to an ex through family court) she will not be approved as a placement by the state. (One of my (now adopted) kids had this exact thing happen -- a relative stepped forward for placement who had her kids removed at one time. Even though she had her kids back at that point and the state was no longer involved with her, they wouldn't accept her as a placement for my kiddo.)

It's the brother who is a doctor that troubles me... I suspect he will pass a homestudy because he probably looks good on paper... he doesn't seem like an appropriate choice for the kids, but sometimes the appropriateness of the placement takes a back seat to things looking good on paper.

The “brother who is a doctor” has a “Doctor of Ministry” degree from a Pentecostal Seminary.  He is president of Valor Christian College which is part of the World Harvest Church (the campus and the church are essentially on the same property according to Wikipedia).  The World Harvest Church was involved in a legal case some years ago involving corporal punishment of a 2 year old in the drop in day care run by the church. This is in addition to Dr Turpin’s book about 21 day fasts and journaling as a spiritual refresher.

I would like to think that these things would outweigh the surface neatness of his house.  But who knows.  

As for Elizabeth Flores, it wasn’t clear to me whether she lost custody of the kids to her ex-husband or the state, but in any case I didn’t get the feeling she wanted to take any of the Turpins in.  She just talked about offering the support and guidance.  

I hope the others are not going to pursue custody either.   

[feministxtian]

NONE of the family should have any custody of the children...hell, the rest of them are all pretty much just as batshit as M1 & M2. 

 

[EmCatlyn]

29 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

US  magazine has reported that Amy Duggar King wants to adopt all 13 children. 

.  

Amy Duggar King  is only a year or two older than the oldest Turpin daughter.  But in any case, adults can’t be adopted.   

That being said, she could perhaps become the guardian of the older ones and adopt the younger ones and get her own reality tv show.

She could rightly argue that she has a lifetime of experience dealing with mega families.  

[Curious]

5 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

.  

Amy Duggar King  is only a year or two older than the oldest Turpin daughter.  But in any case, adults can’t be adopted.   

That being said, she could perhaps become the guardian of the older ones and adopt the younger ones and get her own reality tv show.

She could rightly argue that she has a lifetime of experience dealing with mega families.  

Actually adult adoption is a thing.  That said Famy just wants another shit at her own tv show and what better than showing her going through the adoption process and helping the children "grow up".    

[Aine]

10 hours ago, Curious said:

I don't think they can legally do anything about a termination of rights until after the court case is resolved because while we all think (know) they are guilty as hell, that's not to say a jury will decide they are going away for life.   If they get off for some reason, they will be able to ask for reunification with the minor children (and maybe the adults if they are still considered dependents.  I'm not sure how that would be handled).  

It is my understanding that criminal charges do not need to pursued in order for children to be removed and rights terminated. I think child services goes through family court. While this is a good thing as far as cases like these go, as in they likely won't have to wait for a trial to terminate rights once they find a suitable adoptive home (hopefully) for some of the children, I have read some good investigative feature articles about how this model can allow for the state to kidnap children essentially. Once a child is removed erroneously by an overly zealous CPS worker, it's an uphill battle to prove it for the parents because family court is not held to the same evidentiary standards as criminal court. A family from California just won a massive settlement against CPS in the San Francisco federal circuit court (I think from memory- it's been pushed up the courts for a long time) after a photo lab worker alerted CPS to family vacation photos including one with their 18 month old, 3 year old and 4 year old daughter wrapped in towels standing together after a bath smiling. CPS turned up and just took the kids "pending investigation" and it took the parents a couple of years to get the kids back.

Cases like that aren't completely rare. It's even worse in some states that have privatized some foster placements to for-profit corporations and money exchanges hands between the state and the private "child welfare" organization for facilitating placements leading to adoption. That's all well and good if the child was in danger but due to family court not being held to the same burden of proof and being difficult to fight and many of the families not having money for great lawyers etc, there are stories where families are being faced with losing their children to be adopted that may never have been abused.

[Rachel333]

I'm pretty sure she's not seriously trying to adopt them, she was just expressing that she cares about them and wants them to be well. I've heard many people make similar comments about situations like this.

[DomWackTroll]

6 hours ago, Curious said:

Actually adult adoption is a thing.  

When I was a kid, it was all over the tabloid headlines that Liberace was trying to adopt his boyfriend. My mom and I were standing at the grocery store checkout line one day, and I asked her, "Why would a grown-up adopt another grown-up?" She laughed and said, "Welllll... He likes this man the way your dad and I like each other, but they aren't allowed to get married. So, he's adopting him so that when he dies, this man will inherit his money." 

Yeah, my mom was pretty cool. Still is. 

[EmCatlyn]

8 hours ago, Curious said:

Actually adult adoption is a thing.  That said Famy just wants another shit at her own tv show and what better than showing her going through the adoption process and helping the children "grow up".    

The only context in which I have come across adult adoption is for purposes of inheritance and so forth.  I wasn't aware you could "adopt" an adult that needed guardianship.  I suppose it can be done, now that I think of it. 

 @DomWackTroll, I had forgotten about Liberace and his boyfriend. (Poor Liberace.  Was this the one who demanded "palimony" when they broke up and revealed to Liberace's mother--the only person who didn't know--that L was gay?)

As for Famy, I can just imagine! 

[EmCatlyn]

Quote

More than $400,000 has been raised for 13 malnourished siblings who were removed from a Perris home nearly three weeks ago.    . . . .    While the amount raised may seem significant . . .

According to a 2010 study by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the average lifetime cost for a victim of child maltreatment was $210,012. That covers costs for childhood healthcare, adult medical care, productivity losses, child welfare, criminal justice and special education.

Turpin Donations - Desert Sun.Com 1/31/18

This makes me wonder whether the money will be reserved for things that Medicaid and other public funds don't cover or if they will start by charging the Turpin fund first and spare the state some of the expense until the Turpin fund runs out.

I wonder also if the minor children were covered under some health insurance that the father had through work.   The health insurance I am familiar with will cover you until the end of the month even if you get fired during the month because the payments are made at the beginning of the month.  So it is possible that the state hasn't been paying a lot for the minors' medical care yet. 

As far as getting money from the parents, which some people here have wondered about, I don't know if the equity on the house can be used for the kids.  It is entirely possible that the equity will disappear if the parents don't pay the mortgage and the bank forecloses, which is probably what will happen unless someone pays the mortgage and puts the house on the market.

Related to that, it strikes me that if the Turpin's homeowner's insurance is paid up, someone should sue the Turpins on the children's behalf and, the home owner's insurance may have money for "neglect" lawsuits. (A friend was sued because a child died in a swimming accident while his wife was supervising the kid. Their home-owner's insurance settled.)

Lastly, does anyone know if the Turpin kids could claim some of the money that David Turpin almost certainly has in some sort of pension plan?  The companies he worked for would have 401Ks and/or something else for their employees.  I am not sure if people can be sued for 401-K money, but I hope that they can. 

Just thinking aloud...

 

 

[Beermeet]

5 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

I'm pretty sure she's not seriously trying to adopt them, she was just expressing that she cares about them and wants them to be well. I've heard many people make similar comments about situations like this.

Totally agree.  But, it's Famy and it annoys me.  Not only because Famy but, I think she's wearing 13 pairs of rose colored glasses.  : /

[DomWackTroll]

2 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

 @DomWackTroll, I had forgotten about Liberace and his boyfriend. (Poor Liberace.  Was this the one who demanded "palimony" when they broke up and revealed to Liberace's mother--the only person who didn't know--that L was gay?)

Yes, his name was Scott Thorson. 

[scribble]

17 hours ago, Curious said:

I don't think they can legally do anything about a termination of rights until after the court case is resolved because while we all think (know) they are guilty as hell, that's not to say a jury will decide they are going away for life.   If they get off for some reason, they will be able to ask for reunification with the minor children (and maybe the adults if they are still considered dependents.  I'm not sure how that would be handled). 

Fortunately, that's not the case. The criminal process is separate from the juvenile/family court case. Parents often have their rights terminated without any criminal ramifications at all. (This is often the case for babies born drug dependent -- if parents are unable to maintain sobriety, their rights are often terminated, but they don't generally face any criminal charges. There is one state  that is the exception to this rule and recently decided to pursue charges against mothers who test positive during pregnancy, but most states don't.)

Even if by some miracle, the Turpin parents were able to escape jail, the condition of the kids should be ample evidence of such severe neglect that they'd ever get their minor children back. Whether their rights are ultimately terminated, depends on other factors though -- whether an adoptive resource is found, whether the kids want to be adopted, etc.

[EmCatlyn]

9 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

I'm pretty sure she's not seriously trying to adopt them, she was just expressing that she cares about them and wants them to be well. I've heard many people make similar comments about situations like this.

Yeah, the quote I saw on People Magazine said that she wished she could adopt the 13– which isn’t the same as “I want to adopt them and I am going to look into the possibility.”  

 

[Anonymousguest]

2 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

Yeah, the quote I saw on People Magazine said that she wished she could adopt the 13– which isn’t the same as “I want to adopt them and I am going to look into the possibility.”  

 

I suspect LT's talk of a tv show with her brother was similar. "I'd love to have another baby, maybe then we'll get a tv show..." Just something she said making conversation. I've said the kind of things about my crazy household. I don't mean it at all.

[Jellybean]

She (LT) seems to have said a lot of things to family members - I’m thinking of the conversation with her sister in which she said she could listen about all her sister’s debt issues but would never be able to understand. When their house was either in foreclosure or on the way to it and they had significant debt. Maybe she thought that her brother would be impressed to hear about thoughts of a tv show?

[Sideways]

20 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

This makes me wonder whether the money will be reserved for things that Medicaid and other public funds don't cover or if they will start by charging the Turpin fund first and spare the state some of the expense until the Turpin fund runs out.

I wonder also if the minor children were covered under some health insurance that the father had through work.   The health insurance I am familiar with will cover you until the end of the month even if you get fired during the month because the payments are made at the beginning of the month.  So it is possible that the state hasn't been paying a lot for the minors' medical care yet. 

As far as getting money from the parents, which some people here have wondered about, I don't know if the equity on the house can be used for the kids.  It is entirely possible that the equity will disappear if the parents don't pay the mortgage and the bank forecloses, which is probably what will happen unless someone pays the mortgage and puts the house on the market.

Related to that, it strikes me that if the Turpin's homeowner's insurance is paid up, someone should sue the Turpins on the children's behalf and, the home owner's insurance may have money for "neglect" lawsuits. (A friend was sued because a child died in a swimming accident while his wife was supervising the kid. Their home-owner's insurance settled.)

Lastly, does anyone know if the Turpin kids could claim some of the money that David Turpin almost certainly has in some sort of pension plan?  The companies he worked for would have 401Ks and/or something else for their employees.  I am not sure if people can be sued for 401-K money, but I hope that they can. 

Just thinking aloud...

 

 

If the Turpins' home was to be sold, it would need considerable rehab, given the feces and filth.  Then there is the problem of its "bad karma" and notoriety which is a real thing when banks and realtors must sell homes with sordid pasts.  It may be a real challenge for the bank/ realtors, and the home may end up selling below market value.  It is Perris, after all.

Could David Turpin pay on the house during the trial?  Who knows about what assets they had or lived on during the last months.   Turpin may have been unemployed most recently, though the media is claiming he was about to move the family to Oklahoma for a "job transfer".  He likely was employed when he bought the Perris home, but may have bought it with a small downpayment.  With costs of rehab to put it back on the market, there may be no equity in that house, as they lived there only 3-4 years.   Turpin also had a IRA of $80k as of his bankruptcy, but maybe he depleted that while unemployed. 

As to health insurance for the children, we know that the kids never ever saw a dentist, and did not see a doctor in the last 4 years.   It may be that Turpin took company paid insurance for himself and his wife, and a newborn, but not the other 12 kids, as this would cost him premiums.  In any case whatever employment he had when he was arrested, is now likely terminated.  

It might be that the kids were put on emergency Medicaid upon their rescue.  Whether that continues is a good question.  The trust fund might make the kids ineligible, which would be a terrible shame.

[feministxtian]

1 hour ago, Sideways said:

It may be that Turpin took company paid insurance for himself and his wife, and a newborn, but not the other 12 kids, as this would cost him premiums.

When I worked for the same company, the coverage options were: Self, Self & spouse, Self & children or family. They did not charge per dependent. The premium to cover a family with one child was the same as a family with 10 children.