Turpins 3: 2 Monsters, 13 Victims (WARNING abuse and torture)

[Beermeet]

1 hour ago, lilith said:

Shame on you. She was a human being in need of help. I’m assuming you were concerned about blood born diseases - they are highly unlikely to be transmitted whilst giving CPR unless both parties have open sores in their mouths - even then the odds are tiny.

Seriously, fuck you. I never dehumanized her.  I walked up after she passed out and 911 was called.  I checked her seemingly non existent pulse and decided not to proceed with my lips on hers.  Idk why I even did that , she was blue.  Panic, I guess.  No one else touched her, I did.  I'm very aware of blood borne diseases and how they are contracted, thank you very much.  A simple handwashing takes care of that as long as you don't have an open cut.  Putting your lips on someone who has open sores on their mouth and is a full on junkie is asinine.  The fucking EMT's didn't even do that.  They used a air bag. You are aware of hep-c  ( for example) and how it is transmitted, yes?  What do they tell you in CPR training?  Remember the advice to not do that and wait for 911?  No, I guess you don't. 

[mamallama]

In one of the many CPR classes I've taken over the years we were taught that the only people you should do mouth to mouth on are your spouse and children.  In laws are optional.  In fact, Community CPR teaches compressions only and it's been found to be as effective as compressions with ventilation.  One of the reasons they are pushing this is because people do hesitate (correctly) to put their mouth on stranger so they just do nothing.

[EmCatlyn]

14 hours ago, Howl said:

When I first read about this, I assumed there were deceased children, because the level of abuse was so horrific and starvation was involved.  The children who are able to be interviewed will likely have information if, indeed, this is the case (and I hope it's not). 

There was talk of cadaver dogs about a week ago, but I think the law enforcement folks were only considering bringing cadaver dogs onto the Perris property, not that it was definitely planned.

My guess is that they may bring the dogs in to rule out buried bodies, but  that if they had a strong suspicion there were bodies there, they would have searched already.

Also, I think we would have heard by now if there were records of more births than there are children. (The last I heard, all the children were said to have been born in hospitals.)

It is possible of course that they had some children of whom there is no record.   This family got away with so much for so long that we keep wondering if we know the worst. 

 

 

[Aine]

6 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

I don’t know much about the Nauglers (and I am pretty sure my life is complete without knowing more) but I have read somewhere that while the smell of other people’s feces often causes “disgust,” most of us are not disgusted by the odor of our own feces.  It is part of us and in a way it smells “like” us. 

What civilized people normally feel about their own poop is “shame.”  We are afraid that we “disgust” or may be “disgusting.”  This s all part of the mny different cultural attitudes to defecation that evolve in different societies.

Anyway, the stink of other people’s poop is generally more annoying than our own.

 

This. Also, there are countless replicated studies (so I consider that fact) of mothers and close relatives rating their own child's poop or diaper as being the least disgusting in blind trials. It seems that good old evolution (yes..E-V-O-L-T-I-O-N, fundies)  thankfully made is less likely to find the smells coming from our offspring disgusting because otherwise how do we deal with it and continue the species?

[Beermeet]

9 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

Among the more disgusting aspects of the Turpin story have been reports concerning human waste.  I have wondered why the parents’ psychosis and the direction the family abuse took seems to have involved living surrounded by excrement and/or its smell.  So I started reading about conditions that are in some ways connected to inappropriate handling of excrement.  Inside the spoiler I am summarizing some of what I have found that may connect to the Turpin case.  It is in the spoiler because it is disgusting.  I share it only because it may give some insight into the lives of the victims and some of the issues they may now face.  

  Reveal hidden contents

The Turpin story includes mention of human waste in three specific contexts.  The first comes in the report that indicated that the Turpin offspring were tied or chained for long periods of time and not even allowed to go to the bathroom, therefore these victims lay in their own waste. The other two come from the Texas days.  In one account, the Turpins left dogs inside their house when they abandoned it, and the dogs survived off the excrement in a bunch of baby diapers. (This made me wonder how many weeks or months of diapers and/or how many children in diapers.)  In a later account, after the soiled diapers and other trash had been removed, the buyers of the house found feces smeared on the walls and floors.

As I “read” it, the three reports suggest different problems/perversions.  

Not allowing the kids to go to the bathroom, leaving them in their own waste, etc. is clearly “controlling” behavior with a sadistic component.  The parents controlled, humiliated the kids with this among other acts.

The pile of soiled diapers (along with other trash) on the other hand could just mean that the parents were overwhelmed. Either they became apathetic because they couldn’t control the piles of trash and/ or, being hoarders, they started hoarding soiled diapers.  It is not specifically cruel and it is “controlling” only if they are trying to “hoard” the soiled diapers in some way.

In this connection, I have wondered if they used diapers on children past toilet-training age.   I know of a case where a woman kept her children in diapers until they were school-age “because it was easier.”  And a college friend told me she was not allowed to get out of bed after “bedtime” and she was put in (cloth!) diapers every night for “accidents.” (This was for pee not poop, but still!)    

Anyway, it occurs to me that the large mound of diapers in the Texas house may have represented a twisted way of “holding on” to everything, including the children’s excrement. Did one or both Turpin parents see the children’s excretion as something that belonged to the parents, maybe something the parents could control (hoard) while the kids used diapers, but something that fell outside the parents’ control when the kid toilet-trained?  

Could children’s ability to control their bodily functions represent, for Louise and David, the children’s readiness for an autonomy that they had to punish and thwart?  That is, the dependent, uncritical, unindividual “baby” becomes a person that has to be trained/broken/starved into dependence... Maybe something like that went on.  And it would connect with not being allowed to go to the bathroom (possibly even when untied).   

Then we get to the smeared feces on walls and floors.  And I wanted to know how this could have met a need/satisfied a perversion for Louise and David.  Because the feces on the walls didn’t fall there accidentally. (Feces on the floor could just be that the kids didn’t get to use the bathroom.)  

Here is where it gets really disturbing.  From what I have been reading, there is a good chance that smearing feces on the walls was done by the victims.  

Several sources connect feelings of victimization and lack of control with fecal smearing.  The following quotes from The Friendship Circle Blog , which is a collection of resources for people dealing with disabled family members, state the key points well:

Abuse and/or sensory deprivation are also given as reasons.

 In short,  some of the Turpin kids may have ongoing problems not only involving food/eating but excretion.  They may not be fully “toilet trained” and/or they may show compulsive, inappropriate behavior connected to feces, including fecal smearing. (Note that is is just a possibility. We don’t know what specific problems these poor kids will have.). FWIW  One of the ways of treating fecal smearing is “sensory integration therapy.”   One of the “tools” of this therapy is Play-Doh, which was very specifically on the list of things that were wanted for the Turpin victims.  However, there are other uses for PlayDoh when working with developmentally delayed and/or traumatized people, and “sensory integration therapy” is useful for all kinds of different problems that could be connected to captivity and abuse besides fecal smearing.

Though it is possible that the fecal smearing was one of the ways in which the victims tried to express their pain and lack of control, it is equally possible that one or both parents encouraged and/or demanded the behavior or even participated in it out of their own twisted need to act out.  Or, as the people who bought the Texas house originally speculated, the Turpin parents used the fecal smearing as an act of aggression when their property was about to be foreclosed.

What is clear though is that in addition to neglect, food deprivation and physical torture, the Turpin household had a complicated relationship with human waste.   

 

Thank you for researching that.  Who isn't wondering why so much bodily waste for years.  Two houses, two states.  It was a constant, it seems.  It plays a part for sure.  Dear God, help those children.  It's "over" but not at all.  I mean, there they are now, weeks later.  Getting help and surly relieved as they said and how the kids ran to the rescue van, but.....  I hope a nice calm life for them eventually,  to feel safe and happy.  I want someone with a shit ton of money to set up a nice house for them, care, support, freedom, guidance, education, food and cooking, outings, socialization.  With zero media fanfare or mention.  One of my big money lotto fantasies is things like that .  Because, with money, it can be done best, imo.  When you can pay caring and qualified people well and have rotating, not overworked staff, well, ideal yeah?  I've been thinking of this a lot lately.  How everyone deserves the best care but only the rich can truly pull it off .  Been hearing a lot of stories from people I know,  patients, and articles.  Wtf. The lowest paid do the most important angelic work and if not employed by a kind, generous rich family the pay is not worth what they do.

.

[EmCatlyn]

11 hours ago, albireo said:

I wasn't quite sure where to put this (Turpin thread, Duggar thread, own thread), but the BBC has been paying attention to the Turpin case and published this interview from an IBLP escapee who suspects that the Turpins had a connection with IBLP. The information about Gothard sending people to teach English in Taiwan was also news to me, though I could have just missed it before.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42701297

The impression I am beginning to get is that the Turpins were “inspired” by the worst childrearing practices they could find.  They probably got some of their ideas from IBPL, others from the Pearls, and some others from their friendly neighborhood Satanists and possibly culled some tricks from the “Gestapo Guide to Running Concentration Camps.”  (I am being facetious because the whole thing is appalling.)

Seriously, given their backgrounds, it is not surprising that Louise and David got a lot of their ideas from programs like IBPL.  They do seem to have belonged to no one group but rather created their own little sick cult.

 

[Tim-Tom Biblethumper]

9 hours ago, refugee said:

If I’m remembering right, the Nauglers smeared feces everywhere in one of the houses they lived in. Seems like the smell was not off-putting to them. (Whereas I hold my breath as long as I can when I have to use a porta potty...)

I think that episode with the Naugs was motivated by revenge.  It was one of the charity homes (Mormon) they were living in.  They were asked to leave, and when some ladies came to check out the house afterward they found feces on the walls.

[adidas]

With regard to CPR and being unwilling to give mouth-to-mouth, the recommendation is that you give chest compressions. 

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/23884566/ns/health-heart_health/t/no-mouth-to-mouth-required-new-cpr-rules/

Remember to sing ‘Staying Alive’ by the Bee Gees in your head to get the right rhythm and number of compressions per minute. 

As someone who is reluctant to give mouth-to-mouth even with a laerdal mask it was a big relief when the information about compressions only was released. There are genuine and warranted concerns involving performing rescue breathing on an unknown person.

[Jellybean]

I’ve always been skittish about mouth to mouth, at least partly because I have severe allergies to things that are commonly eaten and wouldn’t want to create a situation with two casualties. I used to carry a Laerdal mask but it expired and I didn’t replace it. Hopefully the ‘chest compressions only’ will turn out to be useful in real life. Chest compressions are *exhausting* though. At least with the rescue breathing there was a break for the person doing compressions. 

[brokenminded]

I just went on doll ladies facebook page and she seems to have spoken to someone at Corona Chamber of Commerce who told her each girl would like one and to send one for the toddler which they would keep till she is old enough. If true I think this may just have been a kind act. I know the kids don't need anything religious but the dolls themselves are just dolls. No one needs to read anything religious on the box or leaflet to the girls. The older ones can chose themselves to read or just enjoy the doll.

[lilith]

10 hours ago, Beermeet said:

Seriously, fuck you. I never dehumanized her.  I walked up after she passed out and 911 was called.  I checked her seemingly non existent pulse and decided not to proceed with my lips on hers.  Idk why I even did that , she was blue.  Panic, I guess.  No one else touched her, I did.  I'm very aware of blood borne diseases and how they are contracted, thank you very much.  A simple handwashing takes care of that as long as you don't have an open cut.  Putting your lips on someone who has open sores on their mouth and is a full on junkie is asinine.  The fucking EMT's didn't even do that.  They used a air bag. You are aware of hep-c  ( for example) and how it is transmitted, yes?  What do they tell you in CPR training?  Remember the advice to not do that and wait for 911?  No, I guess you don't. 

Well you didn’t mention sores on mouth. Hep C passes blood to blood, and as I mentioned, CPR isn’t a good idea if both parties have open wounds in the mouth.

When I did my CPR training, admittedly over a decade ago, there was no mention of making judgements about a person before performing it.

No, you don’t have an obligation to help anyone. But I found the attitude of “well of course we didn’t help her directly, she was shooting up and had sores so we left her til the professionals got there” distasteful. She was someone’s daughter.

Edit - I’ve read further comments and it seems CPR guidelines have changed to compressions only til help arrives. If you were aware of that, I hope you (or someone else) performed compressions and your original post just didn’t communicate that.

I stand by the position that every human in that situation deserves the help of anyone who is able to give it.

[Beermeet]

8 hours ago, adidas said:

With regard to CPR and being unwilling to give mouth-to-mouth, the recommendation is that you give chest compressions. 

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/23884566/ns/health-heart_health/t/no-mouth-to-mouth-required-new-cpr-rules/

Remember to sing ‘Staying Alive’ by the Bee Gees in your head to get the right rhythm and number of compressions per minute. 

As someone who is reluctant to give mouth-to-mouth even with a laerdal mask it was a big relief when the information about compressions only was released. There are genuine and warranted concerns involving performing rescue breathing on an unknown person.

Yes, thank you for posting that link.  It's interesting how it's changed!  My last 2 classes mentioned this.  They also started telling us that you will most likely break a rib doing it.  They used to sugar coat it but found people would stop CPR after hearing the crack.  Because your compression has to reach the heart, you gotta do this! Eek!   13 years ago, it was seen as all or nothing.  

An important thing to remember is universal precautions!  Assume everyone has any and every disease.  No mouth sores doesn't mean a thing.  The visual can be decieving.  When a patient with AIDS or Hep C comes in at work we change nothing, were are already using personal protective equipment for everyone because universal precautions.  Never assume. 

ETA:  The instructors actually do tell you to "judge".  Assess is more like it.  Look around, is there a threat?  Look at the situation, are you safe?  Is the person you are about to treat have a weapon in hand, a needle?   There is no glory in a dead hero. Or a now infected one.  

[gustava]

16 hours ago, lilith said:

But, one time I chose not to.  Because out came a poor soul from a public bathroom, she was shooting up in there and collapsed.  She was covered in open sores from head to toe.  We called 911 but a few of us whispered that we could help but felt strongly our safety was in danger.  It was awful and sad.  

I will in no way be critical of your decision.  Open sores are dangerous to others.  If you did not have the proper protective gear, you made the right decision for you.

 

[Jellybean]

I think one of the hardest things about having training in basic or advanced life support is not feeling safe to step in and use it, whether that’s because of a risk of infection, electrocution, weapons or something else. There’s a reason trainers insist that the first thing any would-be rescuer should do is to check for danger.

It’s just awful, especially knowing that cpr could mean the difference between someone being ripped away from their loved ones, and potentially not. I’m sorry you had that experience @Beermeet

 

[chaotic life]

What used to be called Universal precautions is now actually standard precautions. It’s hard to remember if you trained under the first term but it’s outdated now. These days it’s merely standard infection control and it’s done to prevent spread of infection both directions, plain and simple.

[Beermeet]

@lilith.  I highly recommend taking a CPR class to update.  You clearly value life and would not hesitate to help.  That is a great quality to have!  But your safety needs to pop up first in that kind of situation. I like trainers that are/were firefighters or EMTs.  They have the actual street knowledge to boot with helpful stories. 

I've never gotten that pissed off at anyone here before, not even close.  I feel kinda bad but you were very judgemental and mean.  Putting words in my mouth and assuming a lot with very little knowledge on the subject or situation.  Not cool.  I really have no interest explaining myself further.  Getting into 

 

[Nikedagain?]

In my experience with DSS and children in that system, fecal smearing can be an indicator of sexual abuse. 

[Beermeet]

21 minutes ago, chaotic life said:

What used to be called Universal precautions is now actually standard precautions. It’s hard to remember if you trained under the first term but it’s outdated now. These days it’s merely standard infection control and it’s done to prevent spread of infection both directions, plain and simple.

Boy, these "I'm getting old" moments sure are increasing these days!   Lol!  

[chaotic life]

Boy, these "I'm getting old" moments sure are increasing these days!   Lol!  

I still slip and call it Universal precautions and young’uns in healthcare look at me like I have three heads and I have worked as the Infection Preventionist (the one in charge of infection control standards). Happens to all of us. Blood borne pathogens are actually not easily transmitted and most have treatments to prevent the spread. I would be far more worried about superbugs and things like scabies, all of which are community acquired these days and the same precautions prevent the spread of those as well.

It’s not recommended community based CPR do mouth to mouth at all, just chest compressions these days. The reality is that unless you can get rapid AED treatment CPR has an insanely low success rate overall and even less for anyone not young and healthy before they went down.

Heimlich Maneuver (though Dr. Heimlich has long staunchly objected to the name) is effective, as is rescue breathing when necessary. But chest compressions are not. I get the offense but please don’t shame someone for being scared to do something that nearly worthless in the first place. It makes people less likely to step in in the future and not less.

[Beermeet]

@chaotic life. How cool!  My mother is an infection control specialist at a hospital.  Well, she retired 2 years ago.  She's a microbiologist/ epidemiologist.   Important work you do!

As a kid she would bring home petri dishes and we would touch them to door knobs, cats paw, toilet, our hands pre and post washing to see what grew.  Very interesting and did not mess me up at all in the germ department *sarcasm *  LOL!

[HarryPotterFan]

 

25 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

@chaotic life. How cool!  My mother is an infection control specialist at a hospital.  Well, she retired 2 years ago.  She's a microbiologist/ epidemiologist.   Important work you do!

As a kid she would bring home petri dishes and we would touch them to door knobs, cats paw, toilet, our hands pre and post washing to see what grew.  Very interesting and did not mess me up at all in the germ department *sarcasm *  LOL!

My cousin is an infectious disease doctor, I should suggest this if he has kids!

[Beermeet]

@HarryPotterFan. I highly suggest!  So fun and educational when you have someone who can tell you what bacteria is growing!  She worked in research at a national laboratory at the time so, petri dishes were a dime a dozen.  

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, Nikedagain? said:

In my experience with DSS and children in that system, fecal smearing can be an indicator of sexual abuse. 

That is what I have read.  There are other reasons— it seems to happen a lot with some autistic children, for example. But in kids with no underlying problems, it is usually linked to some form of abuse including sexual.

Regarding the Turpins and the feces in their houses, I really wanted it all to be the parents who engaged in trashing their living spaces, but I am afraid that the kids may have been engaged also and that this is one of the things that are not going to be reported to protect the kids. (And rightly so. They were victims. Whatever they did, their parents are the disgusting ones.)

I do think that the way the parents seem to have been able to live surrounded by filth and disorder is part of their pathology.  The condition of the house(s) reflects their twisted relationship with what they regarded as “theirs.”

There are a lot of troubled people out there who can’t/won’t keep their homes minimally clean and/or cared for.  Most of them do not torture and abuse their children.  But the physical “dirt” and decay in the Turpin house was more than coincidental to the abuse.

[iweartanktops]

8 hours ago, lilith said:

Well you didn’t mention sores on mouth. Hep C passes blood to blood, and as I mentioned, CPR isn’t a good idea if both parties have open wounds in the mouth.

When I did my CPR training, admittedly over a decade ago, there was no mention of making judgements about a person before performing it.

No, you don’t have an obligation to help anyone. But I found the attitude of “well of course we didn’t help her directly, she was shooting up and had sores so we left her til the professionals got there” distasteful. She was someone’s daughter.

Edit - I’ve read further comments and it seems CPR guidelines have changed to compressions only til help arrives. If you were aware of that, I hope you (or someone else) performed compressions and your original post just didn’t communicate that.

I stand by the position that every human in that situation deserves the help of anyone who is able to give it.

I'm troubled by the fact that you called Beermeet out before you educated yourself on the newest CPR guidelines. 

[TheOneAndOnly]

I think the true lesson here is that if you choose to not do CPR on someone, don't bring it up on the internet unless you want opinions to be expressed in your direction.