Josie and Kelton 1: Here We Go Again

[Ivycoveredtower]

2 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Do the Bates courtships differ a great deal? It seems like they "date with a purpose", big courtship proposal, chaperoned courtship, UP wedding. 

 I'm curious what the big differences in their courtships are. I haven't kept up with all their courtships. 

Zach's failed courtship did send a wake up call to them but that was also right at the point where they started totally rebranding themselves to seem less crazy. They wiped the shrine to racism off their blog, stopped dressing so crazy, stopped mentioning their involvement in the cult, and started using the whole "dating with a purpose" line. I remember Kelly saying(or writing) something about how they were going to be more careful in the future to make sure that there wasn't such a public failed courtship because it was so painful for Zach to go through that, but they clearly didn't keep that standard. UP wants the courtships and they provide that even after they learned how awful it can be for one of their children to go through a failed courtship on television. 

they are more lose about them.  deepening on the couple.  the Duggar's have been side hugs after courtship, hand holding after marriage nothing more. I don't even think they say I love until late after engagement (may be wrong about that)  well Say Carlin and Evan have been holding hands and saying  I love you long before they entered an official courtship. Brandon and Micheal front hugged before engagement.  there was a picture of Tori practically sitting in Bobby's lap taken months before the wedding.  Josie and Kelton haven't been shown much so no clue if or how they will deviate from the whole issue. 

[libgirl2]

1 hour ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

they are more lose about them.  deepening on the couple.  the Duggar's have been side hugs after courtship, hand holding after marriage nothing more. I don't even think they say I love until late after engagement (may be wrong about that)  well Say Carlin and Evan have been holding hands and saying  I love you long before they entered an official courtship. Brandon and Micheal front hugged before engagement.  there was a picture of Tori practically sitting in Bobby's lap taken months before the wedding.  Josie and Kelton haven't been shown much so no clue if or how they will deviate from the whole issue. 

I seem to remember Micheal making some comment about "no side hugs for her" 

[Ivycoveredtower]

4 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I seem to remember Micheal making some comment about "no side hugs for her" 

the episode is unlocked on up so I went back to watch it she says listen we hug everyone so there is no way i'm going to hug you less then I hug somebody at church

[libgirl2]

37 minutes ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

the episode is unlocked on up so I went back to watch it she says listen we hug everyone so there is no way i'm going to hug you less then I hug somebody at church

That's the quote. 

[just_ordinary]

3 hours ago, formergothardite said:

[...] I remember Kelly saying(or writing) something about how they were going to be more careful in the future to make sure that there wasn't such a public failed courtship because it was so painful for Zach to go through that, but they clearly didn't keep that standard. UP wants the courtships and they provide that even after they learned how awful it can be for one of their children to go through a failed courtship on television. 

Nathan is the biggest proof how storylines for TV win over the well being of their children. Not so much the break up itself but how they used it for content.

[Ivycoveredtower]

6 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

Nathan is the biggest proof how storylines for TV win over the well being of their children. Not so much the break up itself but how they used it for content.

I think if Nathan didn't want it in the show he wouldn't have let it. Nathan is not even on the show very often. Also I think Carlin had a failed courtship that we have never really heard about. she mentions something about it when she goes to Evan's house during a season 6 episode. go over to the Carlin/Evan thread to see what she said. 

[TeaELSee]

The day Josie turned 18 the clock started on their relationship. It was so obvious they were going to be given permission to court. I had to laugh at Evan, he warned Kelton that a Gil would tell him no. It looks like Evan was told no at first.  

My youngest son is 19, I have 5 boys including stepsons. I would be VERY concerned if my son was interested in a 15 year old.

I am relieved to hear they were forced to wait.

eta* I never believed Josie when she said we are going to take this slow...

[VelociRapture]

In regards to courtships, I don’t think the families differ very much from one another. Both have a period of time where the couple gets to know each other, both have an official courtship period, and both have engagements that last somewhere around 3 months (give or take.) The families both claim to allow the couples to set their own standards, but I doubt that’s entirely true for either family. I think it’s more likely that each couple is given a set of standards that are acceptable and they can then choose which of those feel best for them - so that’s why you’d see some being more physically affectionate than others (for instance, the Smuggars or Cherin seriously limiting physical contact pre-engagement versus the rather affectionate behavior during CarVan’s or JinJer’s relationships.) 

I think the only real major difference is when each family chooses to make the relationships public. The Bateses have a history of introducing potential partners very early on, while the Duggars tend to keep the relationships pretty quiet until things are more serious. For example, Ashley Salyer appeared on the show multiple times as a possible romantic interest for Nathan prior to their courtship, while we didn’t even know Jill was courting Derick until after they were already engaged.

Another difference is the length of the relationships. I don’t count this as a major difference though because the first three successful Bates relationships moved fairly quickly, just like many of the Duggar relationships have. I think the reason for the difference is that the Bateses have seen recent relationships where one or both parties involved has clearly not been ready for marriage when the courtship began. I think they’re particularly hesitant to ok relationships if the male party doesn’t seem ready and the Bates daughters who have started courting recently (Michael, Tori, and Carlin) have pursued relationships with men who weren’t working or were still in school at the start of the courtship. Josie is an exception since Kelton graduated a year ago and works as a plumber, but the latest episode made it clear that her age was the reason the relationship was slowed down (possibly because even Kelly would have a tough time selling the public on a 16 or 17 year old being ready for marriage.)* The Duggar daughters, on the other hand, have mostly married men who are older then them and who are already gainfully employed upon the courtship starting - the sole exception being Jessa**, who had one of the longest relationships of either family due to Ben’s age and the fact that he likely couldn’t support a family immediately.

*I think Josie’s age was only one factor though and that Kelton needing time to start financially preparing to support a family was another. Alyssa started getting to know John when she was just a bit younger than Josie is now - she turned 18 just three days after John’s father won re-election and she had already been getting to know him while volunteering on the campaign, yet she and John didn’t have a very lengthy official relationship. They courted for just two months and got married after about a four month engagement period. I think that quick official relationship was partly due to John being older than Alyssa and having stable employment, so it’ll be interesting to see if things work out similarly for Josie and Kelton now that they’re both working.

**Derick has, of course, since left his job in order to grift for white savior Jesus. However, when he got engaged to Jill he was gainfully employed at Walmart and likely looked like a decent option. 

[BeccaGrim]

If there was any truth to this episode at all (and i know its staged for the camera) than he treated Kelton with a lot more respect than Fundie Zoolander and Bobby.

[Melissa1977]

12 hours ago, BeccaGrim said:

If there was any truth to this episode at all (and i know its staged for the camera) than he treated Kelton with a lot more respect than Fundie Zoolander and Bobby.

Maybe I'm confused, but could it be because his family is upper middle class? 

I'm sure Gil never said no to John Webster. 

[Ivycoveredtower]

14 minutes ago, Melissa1977 said:

Maybe I'm confused, but could it be because his family is upper middle class? 

I'm sure Gil never said no to John Webster. 

I think the Stewart family is pretty well off. I think it has more to do with the fact that Kelton is graduated with a job. well Evan has a job but is still in school. (Or so they claim) 

[JoylessAnna]

13 hours ago, BeccaGrim said:

If there was any truth to this episode at all (and i know its staged for the camera) than he treated Kelton with a lot more respect than Fundie Zoolander and Bobby.

Giving credit where it's due, I think Gil actually has decent intuition when it comes to the maturity of his daughters' relationship. As of right now, CarVan's marriage success rate looks miles behind Josie and Kelton. IIRC, Bobby was still in school when he and Tori began talking. 

[Ivycoveredtower]

6 minutes ago, JoylessAnna said:

Giving credit where it's due, I think Gil actually has decent intuition when it comes to the maturity of his daughters' relationship. As of right now, CarVan's marriage success rate looks miles behind Josie and Kelton. IIRC, Bobby was still in school when he and Tori began talking. 

yep he was. Tori and Bobby met through Kelton because Tori was down in FL and they were visting Kelton at school and Bobby was Kelton's roomate. 

[Ivycoveredtower]

If you watch the live from Thursday I think it's clear Josie and Kelton will walk down the aisle next. they are trying to push for Gil to okay and engagment and Kelly says Gil is praying about it but if Josie and Kelton get their way a wedding will happen before the end of the year. 

[BeccaGrim]

12 hours ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

If you watch the live from Thursday I think it's clear Josie and Kelton will walk down the aisle next. they are trying to push for Gil to okay and engagment and Kelly says Gil is praying about it but if Josie and Kelton get their way a wedding will happen before the end of the year. 

In some ways it just makes sense. They're both working and they've known each other longer. Plus, she seems much more Alyssa-esque than Carlin.   I don't like Carvan is going down the aisle until he has a job or finishes whatever this schooling is. 

[TatiFish9]

On 4/13/2018 at 10:00 PM, BeccaGrim said:

If there was any truth to this episode at all (and i know its staged for the camera) than he treated Kelton with a lot more respect than Fundie Zoolander and Bobby.

I think it was because he gained their trust by backing off. Kelton said it was a painful period to have to step away. These two have been waiting  quite some time. Interesting.

I think it is common for a 15 y/o girl to want her first date, but when those dates are expected to lead to marriage that's when it becomes kinda creepy.

 

[TeaELSee]

I can’t get over the fact that Keltons mom died in childbirth and his family still belongs to a religion that thinks birth control is a sin.

[Ivycoveredtower]

3 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

I think it was because he gained their trust by backing off. Kelton said it was a painful period to have to step away. These two have been waiting  quite some time. Interesting.

I think it is common for a 15 y/o girl to want her first date, but when those dates are expected to lead to marriage that's when it becomes kinda creepy.

 

I think Kelton also has a leg up in that his family has been associating with the Bates for years. his sister was taught by Erin well Bobby came along because of Kelton and Evan was someone that  was at some conference they went to. 

[TatiFish9]

@TeaELSee Quiverfulls and related groups aren't forthcoming about why they truly want their followers to continue to have children. Birth control as sin is PR to control people taking it in the first place. I know the Roman Catholic church was big on the same for many years.

[Ivycoveredtower]

4 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

@TeaELSee Quiverfulls and related groups aren't forthcoming about why they truly want their followers to continue to have children. Birth control as sin is PR to control people taking it in the first place. I know the Roman Catholic church was big on the same for many years.

well we know the whole leave it up to god line is crap. even after they have kids they are still praying and hoping for more. in an old segment I watched yesterday from ABC on the bates family Gil talks about how the kids fasted in hopes that god would give them more siblings and Kelly was hoping for two more boys so she'd have an even number of boys to girls. this was after Judson but before Jeb. 

[TatiFish9]

@Ivycoveredtower yep. And  if they weren't doing all that, they'd still have to resist medical care and any other assistance with obtaining and preserving life, if they truly felt God should be in control of who lived and who died. 

So they just kinda blaze' it all off with prepared statements.  

[Ivycoveredtower]

Just now, TatiFish9 said:

@Ivycoveredtower yep. And  if they weren't doing all that, they'd still have to resist medical care and any other assistance with obtaining and preserving life, if they truly felt God should be in control of who lived and who died. 

So they just kinda blaze' it all off with prepared statements.  

the way Kelly put it was that if one of her kids was outside and got hurt and was bleeding to death she'd get them emergency care so why wouldn't she do the same thing for a two day old child in her womb. I can see her point on that one since they believe life begins at conception. what i don't get is people like Micheal going to doctors to find out why they aren't getting pregnant. that one makes no sense if family size is up to god. 

[TatiFish9]

18 hours ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

If you watch the live from Thursday I think it's clear Josie and Kelton will walk down the aisle next. they are trying to push for Gil to okay and engagment and Kelly says Gil is praying about it but if Josie and Kelton get their way a wedding will happen before the end of the year. 

Wow. That would be a mess to see Josie go before Carlin. How would Carlin ever contain her anxiety and disappointment about the matter? Also, ruins my suspicion that Carlin is already engaged. lol

[haroldtheyrefundies]

7 hours ago, BeccaGrim said:

In some ways it just makes sense. They're both working and they've known each other longer. Plus, she seems much more Alyssa-esque than Carlin.   I don't like Carvan is going down the aisle until he has a job or finishes whatever this schooling is. 

Yeah, I have a gut feeling now that Josie is probably going to end up like Alyssa and marry right after she turns 19 or at least before she turns 20. 

[ihaveanexamintwodays]

7 hours ago, BeccaGrim said:

In some ways it just makes sense. They're both working and they've known each other longer. Plus, she seems much more Alyssa-esque than Carlin.   I don't like Carvan is going down the aisle until he has a job or finishes whatever this schooling is. 

I agree with this! Of course I don't overall support these young girls getting married crazy early because they think that it's their sole purpose in life to make babies (ugh) but Josie at least seems much more ready for it than Carlin or any of the recent Duggar teen brides. She's shown she can be intentional with her education, friends, and job/finances, and her guy also has a degree and a job - and I do support Josie being out from under her parents' roof.