Turpins - 13 shackled kids

[Antipatriarch]

34 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Or the dude from Dumb and Dumber -

I keep seeing:

Spoiler

 

[chaotic life]

What exactly would the sister SAY if she called the authorities? My sister won’t let me speak to her kids and her husband was a peeping Tom when I showered two decades ago?

That’s not gonna get you anyway, especially when you don’t have their address in the first place. But anything you report from second-hand knowledge is heresay. The kids didn’t tell her anything. She didn’t see anything. She had zero knowledge she could realistically report. And even if she felt something was off, you gotta think she would never assume it was THAT kind of off.

The neighbors were in a far better position to have called someone. And it sounds like some of them also had hinky feelings but no one is reporting anything that would have triggered any authorities to even go to the house to check on anyone. Maybe the marching in the bedroom story but that’s weird not abuse.

As for the rest of what the sister is saying, this is why you should never do public interviews while in shock over something. You’re just gonna become and “Ain’t Nobody Got Time for that!” Meme.

[JenniferJuniper]

With a more than a little Johnny Ramone (blek! a right wing Ramone!)

Spoiler

 

[chaotic life]

The sister needs to NOT grant interviews right now, get a lawyer, gather the rest of the family and get in touch with the authorities and medical providers in California to see what they need to be doing to be the family these kids needed their entire lives but are definitely going to need now.

[HarleyQuinn]

I'm sorry but I would think "dad watches me shower and isolates kids" would be worth at least an anonymous tip to CPS. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

[Maggie Mae]

8 hours ago, pelerine said:

My city saw a record number of homicides in 2017, and everyone is freaking out.  I'm just like, guys the total number of homicides was 0.01% of the population.  

My city did, as well. It's a sign of a poor economy. However, something is wrong when people in what used to one of the happiest cities in the US are murdering each other, stealing cars left and right, and leaving drug paraphernalia all over our 200+ parks. We don't need more police, we need better and more education. 

Quote

Honestly, healthcare is not really all that expensive.

The cost of healthcare varies by state. People in my state often choose to leave the state and get treated 5 hours (on a plane) away. I can tell you that my health insurance is expensive and unaffordable - and it goes up every year! When the ACA first started it was great! This year we (my company) switched providers for the third time, trying to find something affordable. It's just throwing away money for me, right now.  And if I get sick, insurance can just drop me due to pre-existing condition. Insurance is such a scam. The fact that we don't have socialized medicine by now only proves to me that most people are selfish and politicians are sociopaths. 

[luv2laugh]

I disagree. She had to have known adult children were still living there and were being that controlled by the parents. She even admitted that something seemed off with her sister and the way she parented. That alone warrants a CPS call.  For her to say she was freaked out that the father would attempt to watch her in the shower means she knew things were off and simply did nothing because that was what was easiest for her.

If you watch the video, you will notice that she seems more upset by the shame and suffering this has caused her family rather than concern for the children.  She considers herself a "motivational Christian speaker" and is probably devastated that this will hurt her brand.

I am sorry if my comments in this thread come off as angry but I'm really pissed that this has happened. I am very worried for the adult "kids" in particular because they aren't equipped to handle the world like other adults and I have no idea what quality of social services they'll receive will be like. I am pissed that 7 are adults in their 20s and have no ability to support themselves due to torture and abuse by their own parents.

Hopefully with time, they'll all make a recovery but without obviously knowing the whole story, the adult kids are most at risk. What I hope those kids know is that it is not too late for them. We on FreeJinger have a heart for people abused especially by cults and fundamentalism and I can only hope others local to them have the same passion. I hope they are taken in and loved on and mentored by people that will help them emotionally develop and grow to full potential.  In fact, they are in CA. I know in Utah there are ministries devoted to helping FLDS adults escape and get on their feet to receive help, support, and education. Maybe someone in their life can see if one of those ministries can offer advice on how to stabilize these adult kids.

[Maggie Mae]

13 hours ago, bird said:

But I am very interested in the more personal reasons for why Americans appear to be set against government "intrusion" in their personal lives. For example, I find it hard to understand how children can be born and no one knows they exist, can be schooled without any checks/ standardised tests, can be raised without health care etc. 

I think there is a lot of historical stuff to unpack when it comes to the general attitude about "freedoms" in the USA, so I'd rather talk about the second sentence I quoted. 

In my state, it's really easy to be born and not have anyone know you exist. There are entire communities that aren't reachable by road. You can get there by plane, float plane, snowmachine (snowmobile), or boat/barge. (To go OT - some of the winter supply chain relied on being able to use the frozen rivers for faster travel - dogsled (traditional) or snowmobile. But when they don't freeze, that poses a problem.) People in my state are incentivized to register their children because you can't apply for the PFD without a birth certificate. Some communities don't have their own safety patrol; and when they do, often the VSP officer is ostracized from the community. State police will come if called, but aren't trusted (nor should they be.) 

The US is a big place and there's not a lot of centralization of government. I moved states several times and a few months ago my insurance dropped me because they thought I was driving on an expired license (from a different state that I surrendered). 

If you want to not be found, it's not that difficult. If you want to hide children in a basement, you can make sure that you never get them social security numbers, don't file for a birth certificate after a home birth, claim homeschooling, don't go to doctors, use cash, move between states. 

[chaotic life]

I get angry, really I do. I cannot stop being haunted by this story. The number of fundie families I know that look exactly that that family’s pictures is frightening. But the aunt did not do this. I think it’s misplaced anger to blame her, madd easy to do because she stepped out into the public spotlight. But his peeping Tom act twenty years ago doesn’t warrant calling authorities long afterward. And this woman endured abuse herself. At the time he was creeping on her, she likely had little to not concept of how abnormal it was.

It’s not nearly as uncommon as you might think that fundie families cut off family as they go fundie. My childhood best friend has done that to me and most of her family because no one but her IBC is the right kind of Christian.

A neighbor that knew there were supposed to be 13 kids there and could not account for them DID warrant a call. That was something concrete and first person that could have triggered a welfare check.

[Maggie Mae]

21 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

 I am very worried for the adults in particular because they aren't equipped to handle the world like other adults and I have no idea what quality of social services they'll receive will be like. I am pissed that 7 are adults in their 20s and have no ability to support themselves. 

I too am concerned about the adults. There aren't services set up for this sort of situation. What happens when they get out of the hospital? Who pays that bill? They will be in debt, parents in jail, no extended family worth anything, a bunch of siblings. At least the younger ones will have the rights afforded to them through foster care - like the ability to have a birth certificate and other identifying paperwork. For all we know, the homeschool wasn't much of a school, so the adults won't be able to find jobs and there won't be anyone to explain how housing works or finance. Ugh. 

And then there are all the after effects of trauma and deprivation. Overspending and overeating! I struggle with my weight because I had a few years of food scarcity and not always stopping when I'm full because some part of my brain doesn't believe that the food will still be around if I leave it. 

Oh and the trial - they will have to see their parents on trial and our prison system sucks so if they want to visit and get some closure they will have to navigate that with very few skills. 

[chaotic life]

As for the kids being adults, how many fundie families are discussed here that keep adult children living at home? That is common for fundies and this family definitely embraced that cover for their abuse. To those who know fundie families that alone is unlikely to trigger any calls. The standard assumption would be that adult children voluntarily remain at home or leave. Not that they are shackled to furniture.

[Local Gorilla]

   I have just read this entire thread.  And I hear a chorus of whys: Why did neighbors - or anybody, really - neglect to step up, considering the red flags? Why didn't they at least inquire further after these children?

   It is indeed, our culture - a culture that discourages people from coming forward. Further, they are afraid of the consequences. So they might question what they themselves saw or ask themselves, "Well, is that even illegal? And what can I do anyway, since its not illegal? A myth that a lot of people have with kids, when some kind of a concern comes up, is that they have to be able to prove that abuse is taking place before they call authorities. And that is wrong - you don't have to prove it, that's why we have investigative systems in place. So it is more of a moral or ethical dilemma. And many people then give into fear of reporting - excuses like second-guessing themselves - even more so when they know the person well. Other times, it's the physiological phenomenon of bystander effect.

   NakedKnees is exactly right:

4 hours ago, NakedKnees said:

American individualism has done a lot more harm for the country than good, in my opinion, and I have little patience for arguing its pros and cons these days. 

    Americans are especially individualistic, concerned with the individual, as opposed to the group at large. They'll say, "Its none of my business!". But in collectivistic countries, every child is usually their business if it involves child abuse and neglect. I mean, adults here will happily take part in the success of kids, but theyre distant when it comes to protecting a child.

    Theres just no room for individualism concerning the America's children. This is a public health issue! Homeschooling advocates need to be able to acknowledge that there are some instances of abuse taking place within the homeschooling community. They need to be able to recognize that, and they need to advocate and establish policies to prevent them from happening.  ....Unfortunately, Betsy DeVos advocates for individualistic policies, as does the entire current administration... Pigs.

[FecundFundieFundus]

I know when something outrageous and evil happens, it's human nature to look for someone, anyone to blame and rationalize the horror just a little, but really? 

The siblings should have called CPS because their estranged sister didn't talk to them much and didn't want them having a relationship with her kids? 

The neighbors should have called the cops because the adults were unfriendly and taught their quiet children not to talk to strangers? 

These kids fell through the cracks because their parents gamed the system. The system has enormous holes- they should not have been able to hide away their children with no interference from educators, doctors, etc. In my opinion, America needs to read this story and realize that social safety nets are necessary. You cannot rely on neighbors calling the police for every socially awkward man or family who lives near them. We can play shoulda woulda coulda til we're blue in the face, but that's not going to help the next set of kids who have no one to turn to. 

[OhNoNike]

Something that has been bothering me... one person commented, “the kids were all so well behaved”.

For some reason this is a thing people say for many fundies: “the kids were so quiet and well behaved”.

Look.  It’s not normal for all kids to always be quiet and well behaved.  Kids should feel comfortable enough going out that they test your limits and misbehave.  This is their job. They test and push boundaries to learn.  If you have kids who never, ever misbehave in public... I think something is wrong.  

I certainly want my kids to always behave, and some days they’re great.  But even tonight at a local place for dinner, I had to tell my 2 year old to sit up at the table multiple times.  She isn’t so fearful of me that she won’t test me in public.  She is comfortable enough to test limits.  And I discipline using different methods (taking away priviledges from my older children, etc) and do positive reinforcement so my kids learn to be appropriate.  

It’s really sort of annoying that we look at having meek, always well behaved children as a positive thing.  It also puts that pressure on the parents when kids misbehave.  I wish society would get away from this idea. 

[chaotic life]

What's next for 13 siblings allegedly starved, held captive in parents' home - ABC Newshttps://apple.news/ANJwgOZCjRvWdzIeSG_Ab1Q

CPS is on the record stating that the adult children will be assessed for their capacity to be independent adults and if they are not ready they will be placed under CPS services and not adult protective services.

Iirc, something similar was done with Jaycee Dugard when she was found years ago, although she had family there and overjoyed to catch her back and support her.

[FloraDoraDolly]

2 hours ago, BabyBottlePop said:

Thanks for this reading list! I listened to Hillbilly Elegy on cd last year and J.D. Vance read it himself. It left a bad taste in my mouth, especially hearing his tone of voice when he read certain things. I didn't like how he basically copped out to the "pull yourself out by your bootstraps" line. 

I read Vance's book last year. His older sister was more or less a Jana Duggar type who raised him because the mom was too messed up to take care of her own kids and the dads never stuck around very long. The grandparents also did a lot for Vance, especially the grandmother. It bothers me to no end when a male from that kind of background manages to make it to the top (with MUCH support from his female relatives) and then turns around and supports a political party that is anti-woman. Vance's sister managed to find a nice guy, get married, and have kids, but Vance had far more opportunities than she did.

[nausicaa]

35 minutes ago, Local Gorilla said:

  NakedKnees is exactly right:

    Americans are especially individualistic, concerned with the individual, as opposed to the group at large. They'll say, "Its none of my business!". But in collectivistic countries, every child is their business if it involves child abuse and neglect. I mean, adults will happily take part in the success of kids, but theyre distant when it comes to protecting a child.

Does anyone have any stats concerning child abuse reports/occurrences in more collectivist countries (South Korea was used as an example earlier) versus more individualistic countries like the United States? I'm wondering if we're painting with a broad, and perhaps overly optimistic brush here, and I'd be interested in seeing some data. 

[Bad Wolf]

Just catching up. The case in my town had $100,000 bond for each perpetrator. They had no assets, so they stayed in jail. There were 2 victims, and 3 healthy children who were in school.

[anjulibai]

As far as the adults' care, my hope is that they a reputable lawyer will come forward or be found by the authorities who would work pro bono on their behalf. I'm guessing there are social workers working on their cases at the moment. 

I also have no doubt they will be diagnosed with some disabilities. This abuse has been going on for years and years, there's no way there isn't permanent developmental damage to the older ones. They'll be able to access a number of programs.

They are lucky, in a sad way, that this case is so prominent, because people will work harder for them to make sure they have access to the care they need. 

[Local Gorilla]

17 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

Does anyone have any stats concerning child abuse reports/occurrences in more collectivist countries (South Korea was used as an example earlier) versus more individualistic countries like the United States? I'm wondering if we're painting with a broad, and perhaps overly optimistic brush here, and I'd be interested in seeing some data. 

    I'm only speaking from my experience in Intercultural Communication courses last semester, those of which were centered on well-researched, new edition texts like, Communicating Across Cultures, for example. Im not going to pull it out, but some of it is definitely online if you're so inclined to find some statistics. Of course, it might have been more accurate to say, "some collectivistic cultures...", instead of just generalizing "collectivistic countries". Oops. Norway is a great example. However! ...On the flip side, collectivism has its downfalls in that some collectivistic cultures might look down upon reporting abuse, lest it bring shame upon the community.

 

 

[Aine]

1 hour ago, Local Gorilla said:

Theres just no room for individualism concerning the America's children. This is a public health issue! Homeschooling advocates need to be able to acknowledge that there are some instances of abuse taking place within the homeschooling community. They need to be able to recognize that, and they need to advocate and establish policies to prevent them from happening.  ....Unfortunately, Betsy DeVos advocates for individualistic policies, as does the entire current administration... Pigs.

I was raised in Australia and I love our policies for the most part there and I definitely am someone who advocates for a good welfare system and universal healthcare, even if it means higher taxes. I now live in the US. I fear you have way too much trust in the child welfare system. I am a mandatory reporter and I've seen things be fucked up by CPS in all sorts of directions- not investigating when they should (and should remove the kids) and also removing children from parents who did nothing wrong (and the trauma caused to those kids was CPS).

I agree that homeschooling needs extra attention because of the limited access that the community has to observe the kids sometimes. But even when putting in a mandatory report that I know needs to go in legally, I often hesitate because I always tell families that I report on that I will do so, as long as it is safe. Most of them have brought the child into me as a medical professional and they don't realize how damaging what they are doing is to the kid/s. When you call CPS, you're spinning a spinner as to whether you get someone overly zealous or someone who is interested in remediation, and it is a very difficult system to fight when a child has been taken wrongly. I know these are a minority of cases (being taken inappropriately) but they come up all too often in my line of work.

[Anonymousguest]

The problem with just tightening homeschooling laws is that it is still all self reporting. ImActually surprised that this family was officially registered to homeschool. They could have just as easily come from TX and not registered the kids, there is nothing tracking kids moving state to state, and that is true for both home and public schooling. Likely if CA had a law (as is being proposed now) that the"private school" had to have an annual walk through or safety check they just wouldn't have registered as homeschoolers. I know people in my state who are "non compliant"with our homeschool laws (either not testing or not even registered), but unless something happens how will anyone know? 

You would have to have very strict and strictly enforced homeschool and truancy laws to catch a family like this through government oversight. It's just not a matter of education. 

[Sideways]

If anyone cares to go down this rabbit hole, here's a podcast where Elizabeth Flores is  interviewed by her cousin, back when she was hawking her book "Resilience".  

Elizabeth talks of marital problems when she was pregnant with her 7th (or 8th?) child, and that her husband left her (he was having an affair) about the time she had the baby.   She embarked on a THREE MONTH FAST OF NOTHING BUT WATER to ask God to help her solve her problems.   That discussion is at the 18:15 mark (at least on my computer).    No wonder she never called authorities on her sister.   Family is all kind of fucked up.

https://mj.b5z.net/i/u/10242134/m/elizabeth.mp3

[VVV]

Regarding hearsay and who could have called CPS on what basis...

Years ago I was riding my bike on a busy street near my neighborhood when just a half block away from the street I was on, a street with quite a bit of fast-moving traffic, was a toddler wandering around the middle of a side street wearing nothing but a diaper. There was not a single adult or even older child in sight.  I immediately rode over to where he was, got off my bike, got him out of the street, and tried to find out from him where he lived or at least where a parent was. This child was pre-verbal and all he could do was vaguely point in several directions. We were right by a skeezy apartment complex but he couldn't show me where he lived, other than that it was somewhere in the complex.

Naturally as soon as I got him out of the street, I called the police.

I waited with this child 45 minutes, no parent coming out to look for him, no older sibling, nobody except me to make sure he didn't wander into traffic and be hit by a car. Literally five minutes before the police finally showed up, a disheveled man appeared who was clearly the child's father. So when the officer got there, he did not see a child abandoned or neglected; he saw a child with a parent. Of course the father denied everything.

The father took the child back into their apartment and I begged the police officer to notify CPS. What the officer told me was: he believed me. He did not believe the father. But because he didn't see the child left unsupervised with his own eyes, it was hearsay and even though he completely believed me and considered the father to be obvious scum, there was no basis to call CPS and they wouldn't do anything even if they were called.

I'm not saying that the extended family and/or the neighbors shouldn't have tried to report them. The neighbors, I think, had reason to be concerned enough to call. But I'm also not convinced anything would have happened differently because, as has been pointed out already, it would have been hearsay.

[feministxtian]

regarding the comment "healthcare is not that expensive"...well, bless your heart. 

Try this on for size: Surgery and 12 day hospital stay - $490,000

Monthly prescription costs - roughly $6000.00

Insulin pump - $10,000

Pump supplies - $200.00/month

Yeah...it's not that expensive...

Thank God we had double insurance coverage at the time of his surgery and ended up paying nothing out of pocket. Thank God he is a veteran and can access the VA healthcare system...otherwise...he'd be dead.