Turpins - 13 shackled kids

[Anonymousguest]

2 hours ago, MayMay1123 said:

did anyone else reading websleuths have a feeling of wanting to protect "our" rod kids? its really bothering me that they are comparing the two families so harshly...

ImNot reading at web sleuths, but a couple people have said it here. I already posted up thread, but there just is no comparison. People seem to be completely overlooking the fact that the reason we even know about the Rod kids is because they are out there in the public. Their mom wants them to be a family name. They are not hidden and isolated. AT ALL.  If they disappeared there are hundreds of people around the country who would wonder about their whereabouts. Even in their own community they are active in their Church, frequently have people over in their home including members of both sides of their families. In the case of the Turpins their own grandparents and aunts weren't even allowed to speak to the children. 

[Foudeb]

The "welfare state leads to higher taxes" argument doesn't stand. If you look at OECD countries, what Americans pay in tax per capita is pretty much average compared to other developped countries:

https://data.oecd.org/tax/tax-revenue.htm

Lower than Luxemburg or Norway, but higher than Spain or Japan, both of which have more developped welfare systems.

50 minutes ago, pelerine said:

I do love hearing different people's perspectives though.  Although I'm kind of a stereotypical "live free or die" American, I'm also a political historian by training and hearing from people who believe differently or who live under other theories of government is fascinating and educational.  (I love thinking through my assumptions in light of new ideas, even if I end up returning to my original ideas.)

I get your point about being self-reliant. I try to be too. I never claimed the unemployment money I was entitled to at one point, because I am too proud to take a handout (and I found another job before things got too dire, and there were no children depending on me, there is nothing wrong with claiming the money you're entitled to). And that's not me being a special snowflake, there are an amazing number of people who don't claim because they don't feel they need the assistance (far more than there are people trying to claim benefits they aren't entitled too).

The problem I have with an "every man on their own" system is that it might work well for one individual but not for another. You have money set aside for medical expenses, but what would have happened if you had been born with a condition that was both expensive to treat and prevented you from being employed at the kind of job that pays well enough to set money aside for medical bills? Say a degenerative disease, or a heart problem or something like that? Or even if you had cancer before you were old enough to start earning a living. In a welfare state the government will take on the medical expenses, leaving you and your family to focus on getting better, or at the very least on getting the most out of your life. In the US having a child with a severe condition can lead parents to focussing on their work, rather than on their very sick newborn, because they can't afford to lose the job that gets them the insurance they need to save the child's life. I don't know how families without insurance even manage at all. This is something that is hard for me to fathom from this side of the pond.

That's why I think Rawl's "veil of ignorance" theory is a good way to chose a society. If you were in limbo, about to be born, and had no control of which family or what body you would be born into, but could chose what society you'd be born in, would you chose a welfare state or not? Now obviously if you're going to be able-bodied and have parents who don't shackle you to the furniture in the name of homeschooling while also starving you, then freedom sounds good. But you don't know that for sure. There's a risk that you're born with a health issue, or to parents who need physical intervention to be prevented from harming you. Does the chance of freedom for yourself outweigh the risk of being royally fucked or even killed by bad luck, or by other people using their freedom (to bear arms, to not having their homeschooling being checked on, to not paying a penny in tax to fund hospitals) to actively hurt you?

[gustava]

20 hours ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

I am currently reading the book 'Hillbilly Elegy' at the moment and it is a fascinating look at life in Appalachia.  The author (who is younger than I) had a grandmother who was married at 14 and his mother was married around age 17, I think.  I think young marriages are likely more common - even today - in regions where there isn't a lot of future besides low-level jobs and raising families.  I'm thankful where I live there is a big focus on college but I know I could have been raised a 2-hour drive away in several different directions and had my life turn out very differently.

Many of us who live in Appalachia hate the Vance book.  Take everything he says with a very large bowl of salt.

[Cheetah]

1 hour ago, FiddleDD said:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/california-couple-charged-torture-brought-13-kids-along-when-they-n838026

 

This article has a picture with names and  approximate ages of the adult children. (Identified by their aunt) some were the ones I’d guessed had to be the older ones, but it’s still very hard to make them be adults in my mind. 

Those poor kids. I can’t even imagine, and honestly I don’t want to. Did you see the article where a previous home had vents in the closets? 

A former neighbor from one of their houses said that their children played together. Until she asked one of the kids their name, which they said they weren’t allowed to tell people. After that they stopped playing with her children. 

Another J-family.  

[refugee]

On 1/15/2018 at 4:30 PM, JermajestyDuggar said:

The fact that all their hair is exactly alike is really weird. Even the Duggars and Bateses who loved to dress alike allowed their children to style their hair differently (although they had parameters). The males look straight out of the 70s. Like they might be an Osmond Brothers cover band. 

I have just started reading this topic, so beg pardon if someone already mentioned this. It looks like the sons have the same hairstyle as the father. Reminds me of the bowl haircut I saw in the children’s book “Yonnie Wundernose” decades ago.

[JermajestyDuggar]

5 minutes ago, Cheetah said:

Another J-family.  

I'm not surprised at all. They were all dressed alike with the same haircuts. I would've bet $1000 they also had names that started with the same letter. 

[onekidanddone]

3 hours ago, apple1 said:

I. just. can't. (with a few things)

However - a few strung together comments:

- I'm a grandma. Never. Just never. That's not being a grandma.

- Vow renewal: To each their own. However - Mr. Apple and I have been married to each other for 40 years. One wedding was enough. Our continuing commitment is a very private thing between us and our God. Not some expensive public thing to repeat.

- I truly don't understand how this could have gone on with nobody knowing. There has to be more to this story.

The only reason I could see to have a vow renewal would to have another huge family gathering for a happy event.  Our wedding was such a kick ass and rocking fun party, I'd do it again if it didn't cost eleventy billionty dollars. My mom and my aunt are both in failing health, and I see the next time we all meet would be for a funeral.

D'oh!  I hit send and then I remembered we are planning my daughter's Bat Mitzvah for September. Yea, that should be a good time with all the usual suspects.  

[hoipolloi]

21 minutes ago, gustava said:

Many of us who live in Appalachia hate the Vance book.  Take everything he says with a very large bowl of salt.

Read Vance's book last year & ended up with a very sour taste in my mouth. It was an obnoxious combination of "I'm all right, Jack" and "It's your fault if you're a failure."

Found This Appalachia Life, which is very good, certainly much better than Vance's stuff -- the link is to a recommended reading list.

[anachronistic]

I don’t have anything to add except that I hope those poor children and adults get lots of help and someone sets up a fund for their living and education expenses. With all the publicity people must want to donate. The adults will probably go to adult foster care or a group home until they can live on their own. Both of these programs are for people with developmental disabilities who can’t live on their own, but many graduate to apartments where they just have some help a few days a week or someone to check in on them. It would be great if a big church could take them all in. Then they would still be in a familiar culture but also have a ready made community to support them. Are there any mega churches in their area who could do this?

 

[Nikedagain?]

52 minutes ago, gustava said:

Many of us who live in Appalachia hate the Vance book.  Take everything he says with a very large bowl of salt.

Agreed. My dad is from NC Appalachia and all of his family is still there. I did not like the book. He got too soap boxy and braggadocious towards the end. I can't believe they are making a movie. 

I'm just sick about this. I guess having an adopted child that was abused and neglected (and non verbal, so perfect victim), I am more sensitive (read: paranoid/neurotic) to my surroundings regarding children than I was before. I definitely pay attention and I'm a mandated reporter, but I'd report anyway...

I have one neighbor (no kids though)  that I have never seen. I'm pretty sure that he is having a fight club in his basement.

However, I won't talk about it...

[bird]

@Foudeb really great points well made. This is exactly the reason I was interested in the personal take on it. I like to hear the reasons for ideas that don't appear to make sense to us. 

Is there no distinction between a welfare state and a police state? Surely a country like America can provide affordable healthcare for its citizens without its police force being given unlimited power. 

I agree with the poster who said not registering children should be illegal. 

I agree with @pelerine that studying towards standardised tests may not be the best way to educate children but I can't agree with the alternative which appears to be at the heart of a lot of abuse of children. It shouldn't be possible to hide 13 children! 

[nausicaa]

I'm still thinking about that nine million dollar bond for a child abuse case. That's unheard of, even for something as horrific as this. I'm still wondering if there's something else going on that investigators haven't released yet.

Since the police stated that there were no signs of sexual abuse, I'm wondering if there aren't some manslaughter/murder charges for the deaths of several kids who didn't survive their "parenting" tactics. It's the only explanation I can come up with for a bond that high. 

[apandaaries]

34 minutes ago, Nikedagain? said:

I have one neighbor (no kids though)  that I have never seen. I'm pretty sure that he is having a fight club in his basement.

However, I won't talk about it...

Having just read that long read about Michelle Knight in Ohio (posted several pages back, I believe), can you maybe call for an anonymous well check the next time his fight club is going on? Knight said that guys came over on a weekly basis to BBQ, and he just kept the music on and no one ever inquired.  Just in case & to be on the safe side?

@Foudeb, I totally agree. The US has an incredible amount of easily solvable problems that we choose not to solve or just ignore most of the time.  I think in large part it's due to attitudes like the libertarian party's: "I can do fine all by myself!" But honestly, I think humanity is interdependent.  We're designed from birth to be part of a community, which should involve taking care of all members of the community. 

The US, for a wealth of reasons, has chosen to not take care of everyone.  I think a huge part of that is the structural inequality on which this country was built.  Those who wrote the Constitution did not think themselves equal to the Native Americans or the Black people they enslaved; they imagined themselves superior and created a society which reflected that, while always using the positive (if completely false) rhetoric of those who "help," or "enlighten," or "Christianize."  We've had millions of immigrants join the country, and never addressed the root problem of racism and structural inequality. Even within the white community, there were stratifications and distinctions, a clear sense of who had money (and therefore high standing within the society) and who did not. 

Compound that with the American fixation on individuality and it's a recipe for disaster.  Many people consider themselves so unique that they refuse to empathize with people in negative situations until they find themselves in one. I lived in S Korea and was struck by how people put others first, rather than themselves.  A focus on group harmony was embedded in the culture.  Focusing too much on oneself or too much on the group have its own issues, but people there were better fed, better educated, better clothed, etc, etc. 

Clearly I'm not the most enthusiastic member of American society.  I am so saddened by what we have become that I do honestly fear for the worst under the current administration.  In some ways, it strikes me as an experiment which was going okay, in some ways for awhile, but which has completely gone awry now. It wouldn't be the first time an empire fell.

[JesusPony]

Re: the bond amount, it is serious f*ckin business to have people -- children or adults -- in literal bondage and there were probably multiple charges for each victim. And the 17yo had pictures? The Turpins will never see daylight again. No Mustangs, No Elvis, No Disneyland. Buh-bye.

[nausicaa]

1 minute ago, JesusPony said:

Re: the bond amount, it is serious f*ckin business to have people -- children or adults -- in literal bondage and there were probably multiple charges for each victim. And the 17yo had pictures? The Turpins will never see daylight again. No Mustangs, No Elvis, No Disneyland. Buh-bye.

I completely agree, and I seriously hope they never see daylight again. However, is there any other American case of even horrific child abuse that entailed such a high bond amount? (I'm genuinely asking, I don't know enough about legal precedent here.) Million dollar bonds always seemed reserved for murder. 

[imokit]

@nausicaa  How often do child abusers get charged with torture? Even in the cases where children die, its normally physical/sexual assault +/- murder or manslaughter. 

The torture charges are probably why the bond is so high.  Plus its 13 charges per parent isn't it?

[JenniferJuniper]

Just now, JesusPony said:

Re: the bond amount, it is serious f*ckin business to have people -- children or adults -- in literal bondage and there were probably multiple charges for each victim. And the 17yo had pictures? The Turpins will never see daylight again. No Mustangs, No Elvis, No Disneyland. Buh-bye.

And so many potential witnesses against them!  Even if two thirds of the victims won't cooperate, the other third will slay them.  They are doomed.

Note to abusive fundies - the bigger the amount of the blessings, the fuller the quiver - the greater the number of people available to testify against you someday. 

[quiversR4hunting]

17 hours ago, Sideways said:

article I read stated the family just upped and left their home in TX, with no warning.  Left a mess behind....hoarders.  The new owner found it strange that there were VENTS in the bedroom closets.  This abuse has been going on for years.

@Sideways -which article is this? I can't seem to find it. Thanks in advance

[nausicaa]

1 minute ago, imokit said:

@nausicaa  How often do child abusers get charged with torture? Even in the cases where children die, its normally physical/sexual assault +/- murder or manslaughter. 

The torture charges are probably why the bond is so high.  Plus its 13 charges per parent isn't it?

I mean, that makes sense. I just don't know how often torture charges are issued against someone and how that compares with murder or sexual assault charges. 

I just looked it up and Ariel Castro's bond was $8 million, for three counts of rape and four counts of kidnapping, and that is for three women he didn't know and held for over a decade. The Turpin charges are torture and child endangerment. Considering how lenient courts typically are when it's a parent's abusive behavior towards their own children, I think that confirms that these poor kids were being abused very severely for a long time.

I still wouldn't be surprised if we find out about some manslaughter or other charges later though. 

 

[Granwych]

52 minutes ago, anachronistic said:

I don’t have anything to add except that I hope those poor children and adults get lots of help and someone sets up a fund for their living and education expenses. With all the publicity people must want to donate. The adults will probably go to adult foster care or a group home until they can live on their own. Both of these programs are for people with developmental disabilities who can’t live on their own, but many graduate to apartments where they just have some help a few days a week or someone to check in on them. It would be great if a big church could take them all in. Then they would still be in a familiar culture but also have a ready made community to support them. Are there any mega churches in their area who could do this?

 

Does any mega church do this?  My impression that all mega churches do is collect $$ and spend it on the pastors & their families.

[EyesOpen]

Just now, Granwych said:

Does any mega church do this?  My impression that all mega churches do is collect $$ and spend it on the pastors & their families.

Im

sad to say I thought the same thing 

[FecundFundieFundus]

2 minutes ago, Granwych said:

Does any mega church do this?  My impression that all mega churches do is collect $$ and spend it on the pastors & their families.

Ummmm I think you'll find they are selflessly saving their parishioners from the sin of loving money. And they need a private plane, dammit! I, too, once doubted. Then the Lord put a video of two mummified lizards discussing it into my life and I saw the truth. Give generously. 

[Sideways]

One of the anti-Naugler pages posted this video today.   Good Morning America's  interview of Louise Turpin's sister Elizabeth Flores.   (the other video interview elsewhere was Teresa Robinette).

The story gets more cringeworthy by the minute.  She says David Turpin used to peep on her while she was in the shower (she lived with them briefly while in college). .   The couple cut off the family, blah blah blah.  Family members didn't know where they lived, so could do nothing.  Tears.  She still loves her sister despite all.  Loves these children she's never met.  Hopes to meet them.

Forgive me if I gag.   Why didn't she and other family members investigate their whereabouts, either themselves or via a P.I.?  Consumers have been able to do digital sleuthing themselves for a small fee.  She could have found out where the Turpins lived.   She saw the photos on Facebook, the fact that adult children looked infantilized and did not seem to mature out to lead their own lives.    

Dysfunctional and complacent.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/US/aunt-13-siblings-allegedly-held-captive-years-touch/story?id=52401005 

[Alisamer]

2 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Do you realize how lucky you are? I know of people who lost everything over medical bills and had their lives ruined. 

I know I am lucky because we have AMAZING insurance and are pretty well off financially. But I have spent enough time in waiting rooms with people who weren't as lucky as I am to see that healthcare is fucking expensive for many, many people. I've talked to so many parents whose insurance only cover around two to three months worth of therapy(speech therapy and occupational therapy seem to be the ones least likely to be covered) for their children and after that they have to pay out of pocket. We are talking about several hundred dollars a week in just therapy that their child needs and this goes on for years and years and years. Perhaps you can afford to shell out that sort of money without it being an issue, but there are so many who just can't. 

Agreed! I have a co-worker with no insurance because despite being healthy insurance was going to cost nearly $1000 a month. For just her. Her chronically ill daughter is getting insurance instead. I qualify for a subsidy but still had to cancel an appointment with my ophthalmologist for a re-check on a minor issue because I couldn't justify paying an extra $100 a month for the insurance that covers that, nor could I pay out of pocket. If I have something major happen insurance will pay after hitting my deductible, but it's so high I may very likely be bankrupt by then. 

That same co-worker's husband had a severe brain injury several years ago, and despite good insurance they had to declare bankruptcy. Not helped by the hours every day she had to spend on the phone with insurance managing his care. She had to fight for every single treatment he needed, even sometimes after the fact for emergency care.

The end of every year is like rolling dice - pay more than I can really afford but be well covered if I get sick, or go for the cheaper plan and risk bankruptcy if I get sick? Last year I had a suspicious Pap smear so went with the good plan. This year I'm on the cheap one to recover from the costs last year. Today the road is super icy and I had to decide whether to stay home and risk my job and don't get paid for the day, or drive and risk an accident. I stayed home and am crossing my fingers I can get to work tomorrow. 

[freedom_for_all]

22 hours ago, byzant said:

Yep, refeeding symdrome  can be fatal. And is always vvv unpleasant. Apparently it was first studied seriously in survivors of concentration camps. Thankfully there is a really clear procedure and excellent blood tests to avoid severe complications now. 

Just so horrible, I could cry that they 're hopeful things will get better and hope they are right. 

My grandma was really lucky in regards to re-feeding syndrome. The group of people that liberated her from the camps didn’t have much food with them so it all had to be split among the survivors. I can’t imagine how starving she was since this was after a death march but thank goodness her group of people didn’t have the chance to over eat. Just thinking about it makes me shiver.