Safe at Home (Arndts) 3: No penguins were harmed in the making of this thread

[church_of_dog]

Hmm, the mention of Stephen King got me thinking, and suddenly I remembered the movie "Big".

A 12-year-old boy in an adult man's body.

Maybe Rick and Cathy have a Zoltar machine in the basement...

[JenniferJuniper]

I'm not sure the Arndts are stuck in any time period per se.  Rick and Cathy maybe, but sometimes that happens with regular people when they get to the, ahem, "near elderly"  years.   But the boys seem to me to be sort of time zone free.

They are not at all obvious to modern culture.  Certainly the boys who do the depos are exposed to all sorts of things, but even the others watch TV and interact with normal people on a regular basis.  But they are impervious to the world around them and no one outside gets in.  And for me that's what makes them so scary/fascinating/bewildering. 

[FloraKitty35]

1 hour ago, JenniferJuniper said:

But they are impervious to the world around them and no one outside gets in.

They have most likely been scared, guilt tripped, and manipulated into line from birth into staying.  

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, JenniferJuniper said:

sometimes that happens with regular people when they get to the, ahem, "near elderly"  years. 

I resemble that remark.

Could be, but I know people in their 80s that are younger at heart than some 30 year-olds.  I aspire to be like the former.  If you are a stick-in-the-mud and resistant to new ideas at 25 then you will probably be a stick-in-the-mud at 60.

I think Rick and Cathy stuck-in-the-mud watching reruns of Leave It to Beaver 40 years ago.  Deliberately.

The childults do get out of the mausoleum a bit.  Some of them are a bit more stuck than others, IMO.

[Carm_88]

The older guys seem to be out and about more. I don't know about Mary Elizabeth. Does she ever get to go anywhere on her own? 

[Briefly]

4 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

I resemble that remark. Could be,

but I know people in their 80s that are younger at heart than some 30 year-olds.  I aspire to be like the former.  If you are a stick-in-the-mud and resistant to new ideas at 25 then you will probably be a stick-in-the-mud at 60.

I

The youngest person I have ever known is my boss's dad.  He died 3 years ago, he was almost 98.  Physically anyway.  We called him The Teenager for a good reason!

[December]

20 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Could be, but I know people in their 80s that are younger at heart than some 30 year-olds.  I aspire to be like the former.  If you are a stick-in-the-mud and resistant to new ideas at 25 then you will probably be a stick-in-the-mud at 60.

So true! It's down to attitude, not age. The most energetic and curious person I've met was a college professor in his 80's. I've met people who were born before television who are more interested in and competent with computers than their grandchildren who grew up with the internet. 

[Hane]

My office is full of old fudds in their 20s and 30s. The sad part is, they think they’re all hip and happenin’.

[nokidsmom]

On 1/11/2018 at 12:58 PM, FloraKitty35 said:

They have most likely been scared, guilt tripped, and manipulated into line from birth into staying.  

Agree with this.  IME, being allowed out into the world, being aware of it, working in it and even being educated about it doesn't prevent parents from doing whatever they can to keep their children from leaving home.   Fear, guilt, obligation are powerful things.  Unhealthy levels of enmeshment can still occur.    I think all of us have known of the able bodied, employed adult kid(s) who never left home and cannot abide the idea of leaving Mom and Dad.  But typically it involves one, maybe two, kids (I personally know of 3) in a family.  But here's a family where 12 out of 14 who are now legal adults.  8 are over the age of 25.   The oldest is pushing 40.    And yet, no one has left home.  Normally, considering the size of this family, there would be several gone by now.  But none at all and furthermore, no indications that any of them have done anything towards moving out on their own and furthermore that they want to.   

Yes, we know that Rick shows what he wants people to see.    But still it doesn't account for the fact that no one in this large family has moved out, even in an act of "rebellion" or wanting to (finally) claim their own life.   No one has said "screw it, I am out of here".  

Personally, I can't help but feel that some of the guys really want to have a place and eventually, a family, of their own.  It's normal.  Really, how many of them want to keep on with Vine Valley?   How many really want to keep playing with penguins and drones?  At least they seem to have dropped the K'nex.   How many really want to have to go on a drive with Daddy?    In short how long do they have to carry on like they are still kids in Mommy and Daddy's home while living in adult bodies and some of them actually doing adult work.    The cognitive dissonance, no to mention the weirdness of it all, has to be unbelievable.   And yet, it has not been enough to drive any of them out of there?  And this is not a family of two, or three, or four, it's fourteen.  Seriously, what are the odds?  Even in the family I know who has 3 out of 4 adult kids (all in their 50s) still at home, there was one who did leave back in their 20s.

Whatever mind voodoo is happening, Rick and Cathy have done an amazing job, and not in a good way, of keeping a bunch of adult kids at home, making them forget that they are adults and go out and make a life for themselves.  Some of them certainly have the means to do so.  

[JenniferJuniper]

4 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

Personally, I can't help but feel that some of the guys really want to have a place and eventually, a family, of their own.  It's normal.  Really, how many of them want to keep on with Vine Valley?   How many really want to keep playing with penguins and drones?  At least they seem to have dropped the K'nex.   How many really want to have to go on a drive with Daddy?    In short how long do they have to carry on like they are still kids in Mommy and Daddy's home while living in adult bodies and some of them actually doing adult work. 

We can't know for sure but based on Mark and Luke's old diaries, I'd guess most of the older sons at least planned to be married with families.  Paul is a year away from the age my grandmother was when she became a grandmother.  Granted, guys can have kids very late in life but if you are in your late 30's and have never dated before, or had your own apartment - even a dorm room - where would you start at this point? You don't live in Fundieville and so any woman remotely close to your age has likely had far more real life experience.  How do you just up and become a headship?  A renter?   Or just a guy who isn't sharing a room with a ton of brothers?

I agree 100% that Rick and Cathy have control. No one has puzzled out the source of that control or how they've been so effective at maintaining it.  But even if one of the older sons deep down felt really resentful and wanted to make a move, I can see him feeling terribly paralyzed.

I've been paralyzed before.  Not by my parents but by adverse life circumstances.  It can be really hard to know where to begin, how to even open the front door.   And those first few steps can be a doozie.  Sometimes it's easier just not to even try.  Most of us are forced by necessity to open that door.  But Rick and Cathy have made life pretty easy for the manboys.  Not too many work hours.  No fear of being fired by the boss.  Games and constant company - no loneliness.  Yeah, Vine Valley is a joke but there are worse jobs out there.  And it makes Dad so happy....

Maybe it's that simple.  Rick and Cathy have made home life as pleasant as possible while guilting the sons into supporting the family.  All while telling them since birth that their family was the best and the world out there contains a lot of darkness and evil.  Anyone who thinks of leaving may feel that paralysis - and decide it's just not worth the risk or the effort to try to move on.

[MarblesMom]

On 1/11/2018 at 11:44 AM, JenniferJuniper said:

Certainly the boys who do the depos are exposed to all sorts of things, but even the others watch TV and interact with normal people on a regular basis.

Who are these "normal" people?  Maybe the wedding photography clients?  Are there other people who interact with them on a day to day basis?

*bolding mine

[JenniferJuniper]

11 minutes ago, MarblesMom said:

Who are these "normal" people?  Maybe the wedding photography clients?  Are there other people who interact with them on a day to day basis?

*bolding mine

Photography clients, attorney clients, fellow gym members, "Softball Classic" attendees, numerous non-fundie family members.  It's a reasonably long list although they were well sheltered and, of course, home schooled growing up. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

I've got a theory for why the eldest have stayed...and it's based on absolutely nothing from them just my own hypothesizing.

Once the eldest boys became responsible for supporting the entire household it put them in an emotionally untenable position.  They live in a place with a low CoL but that is not an inexpensive lifestyle.  

• All those mouths to feed is spendy, no matter how carefully Cathy budgets
• Their house and grounds are nicely maintained and that costs a significant amount of money even if they do the labor themselves.
• The family trips, the VV location trips across the country, Rick and Cathy's private get aways.  Most people would consider those luxuries but I get the impression Rick sees them as non-optional.
• Medical and dental.  A lot of those kids have had braces and even with dental insurance that cost me about $8k per kid.  Having to buy insurance on the market for all those people cannot be cheap.
• Very pricey camera equipment - they are self employed so their business expenses like this are on them.

If you're Paul, John, Luke, Mark...in the beggining you helped build that house with your own hands and find yourself the sole support of your SAH parents and 10 younger siblings.  Everyone is dependent on the money you're bringing in.  

Once fully capable of leaving and being self-supporting I can imagine the guilt of pulling your financial support would be overwhelming.

• Rick and Cathy gave them a houseful of dependents.  If they convinced the boys that everyone is their financial obligation then they could no sooner leave their family than I could leave mine.  They may not feel parental toward the rest, but the financial aspect of both parenting and providing for their parents could be a psychological prison.
• If you can't leave without crippling guilt it could be easier to just convince yourself you don't really want to.  Stop thinking about it...I have no doubt both R&C would be happy to help with whatever mental gymnastics they need to maintain this.
• Even if one realized this is crazy and they had every right to move out there is another source of guilt.  They know how much work it takes to bring enough money in, they've felt the pressure....they leave and it's that much worse on their brothers.  Those guys either pick up the slack or the family goes without.  I can see them feeling an obligation to stay, knowing they can't all go or the family wouldn't have grocery money and would eventually lose the house....how can they leave and expect the others to pick up the slack?
• Even if they resent R&C for not supporting the family, they aren't stupid.  They know they could both go back to work tomorrow and cut out the vacations and still never come close to supporting that household without them.

Even as the others got older and Jude and James began contributing expenses are increasing.  Supporting older kids/kidults is a lot more expensive than little ones.  

I can easily see the eldest boys feeling they no options and if my theory is correct shame on R&C for allowing their sons to sacrifice their own autonomy for their financial benefit.

What I don't understand is why none of the middle tier have made a break.  I would think as they became old enough to launch, but before they were contributing significantly to the finances, that the older guys would be pushing them to get out and live their own lives.  Both to avoid their fate and pragmatically....no matter how much you love your family that is a lot of people in one house and let's face it, fewer mouths to feed. 

Launching becomes a normal thing and the family dynamic changes...possible restructure so maybe they can get some much delayed independence.

It's been speculated that Cathy has family money so if she's somehow supporting the family and the boys are not the financial providers than I got nothing.  (Or there is some other source of silent income - settlement, etc.)

(Her family owns a Tool and Die place in town and she's one of many siblings...that can be decent money but a share of that isn't typically "never have to work again money and can raise 14 kids with an unemployed husband without living off your kids" unless they had some miraculous investments.)

Idk - I can see why the eldest and the youngest are still there, but I'm at a loss why no one Jude-Jacob have launched together.  I wouldn't expect a clean break ...from home to alone or with a girl ...but 2-3 of them together to split expenses and ease into the adult world makes sense to me.  

 

 

 

[formergothardite]

37 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Idk - I can see why the eldest and the youngest are still there, but I'm at a loss why no one Jude-Jacob have launched together. 

R&C must have quite an emotional hold on their sons. It is amazing that NONE of them have appeared to rebel against the whole Safe at Home idea. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

R&C must have quite an emotional hold on their sons. It is amazing that NONE of them have appeared to rebel against the whole Safe at Home idea. 

Crazy question....could there be serious money there from Rick or Cathy?  Enough that they wouldn't leave without their blessing.

No evidence of that, just thinking of what could possibly motivate so many to stay which is usually guilt, fear, or personal gain.  Or maybe that's just me

Its the mystery that keeps me watching this thread.  If I ever got to ask one magical question and get a true answer fuck the meaning of life or is there a God, I want to know what spell they cast on those kids!

 

[Eternalbluepearl]

Why don't Rick or Cathy work? What the hell? You don't create a mega size family and then just retire before all of your kids are grown. That's not fair. 

[anjulibai]

Out of resentment, maybe the older ones are telling the younger ones they need to stay and work for the sake of the family? 

[formergothardite]

5 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Its the mystery that keeps me watching this thread.  If I ever got to ask one magical question and get a true answer fuck the meaning of life or is there a God, I want to know what spell they cast on those kids!

I would love to just observe this family. All these adult sons who go out into the world, yet refuse to truly leave the "safety" of their home. How the fuck did they do it?! The Arndts are one of life's great mysteries. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, Eternalbluepearl said:

You don't create a mega size family and then just retire before all of your kids are grown.

They do.  They shouldn't, but they do.

When the kids were small Cathy being a SAHM was logical and,  in contrast to some other families we know, by all accounts she put the time and effort into homeschooling properly.  

Idk when Rick stopped working.  I believe he was still working as a court reporter when the eldest boys got into that (don't ask me how he supported them before the eldest were working....it doesn't seem possible but it happened.)

Now I'm wondering how his retirement happened...I'll search and see if it's been discussed before.  

It's my personal opinion that Rick is unwell in some way.  I am not internet diagnosing anyone and have never heard it mentioned from them, but the seeming lack of expectation that he do anything from Cathy and the boys is odd to me.  But we see only highly edited snapshots so my opinion based on nothing.  

 

[formergothardite]

Cathy also did court reporting. They had an office on main street. Rick talks in this video about how he put all his energy into figuring out how to spend as much time with his kids as possible. The amazing thing is that they didn't seem to go the fundie beat the shit out of kids route. This video shows one of the children repeatedly telling Rick no and Rick just gently talks him into obeying. 

Cathy was wearing the short white shorts back then too. 

[CancerBomb]

Being a court reporter is not a bad income or difficult job, but it's not enough to afford a mass of kids or early retirement. For a single person, it seems like a good choice, better if supplemented by another income. Do any of the kids have jobs even part time ones? Surely they must have some marketable skills. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

3 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Cathy also did court reporting. They had an office on main street. Rick talks in this video about how he put all his energy into figuring out how to spend as much time with his kids as possible. The amazing thing is that they didn't seem to go the fundie beat the shit out of kids route. This video shows one of the children repeatedly telling Rick no and Rick just gently talks him into obeying. 

Cathy was wearing the short white shorts back then too. 

They absolutely exhibit some very good parenting...and they do seem to see their kids as individuals in a way many other families don't.  

The normalcy and goodness is a huge part of the mystery to me.  It doesn't reconcile with the results,

[JenniferJuniper]

11 hours ago, CancerBomb said:

Being a court reporter is not a bad income or difficult job, but it's not enough to afford a mass of kids or early retirement. For a single person, it seems like a good choice, better if supplemented by another income. Do any of the kids have jobs even part time ones? 

No one works or has ever worked outside of the family businesses, the primary ones now being the court reporting and wedding photography.   Part of the safe-at-home rules it would seem.  

I think the businesses do well.  They are excellent wedding photographers and I'm willing to bet they have a stellar reputation as a court reporting business. But it doesn't seem that the middle and younger "kids" (I believe all but one are adults as of this year) are being groomed for anything much beyond whatever they do with Vine Valley or whatever they learn tagging along at weddings.  This puzzles me very much.  If your primary businesses are saturated with employees, why not look to move into some other small business to both occupy some other members of the family and bring in more income?  I get that some are needed to run the household, but they aren't all needed on a daily basis.

The Arndts are a challenging family to follow because it's a bit like watching a glacier.  But from a bigger picture standpoint in so many ways they really are the most unique bunch of them all.  

[formergothardite]

I have to say, I find young Rick with a beard rather attractive looking. 

I think Rick would have been a great stay at home dad. It seems that is what he really wanted. But he took it to the extreme where he never wants his children to leave him. He doesn't seem to be capable of imagining a life where he isn't surrounded by his children. He would probably view one of them leaving the home as a rejection of him. 

[JenniferJuniper]

44 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I think Rick would have been a great stay at home dad. It seems that is what he really wanted. But he took it to the extreme where he never wants his children to leave him. He doesn't seem to be capable of imagining a life where he isn't surrounded by his children. He would probably view one of them leaving the home as a rejection of him. 

He believes too much in strict gender roles to have stayed home and raised his kids. That's for mothers.  In the old videos though, I agree with a prior poster, they both seemed very patient and loving and seemed to very much enjoy the kids, even when they were throwing tantrums or otherwise acting up like normal little kids do.  I'd be shocked to learn they used any sort of physical punishment. And yet something went horribly wrong later on.

I'm pretty sure they are building a second house on their expansive land for the older sons.  I've not heard Rick come out and say this, but they've definitely been clearing land for another building.  While it makes sense in some way - only the four oldest have their own space in the attic which leaves nine (!) other adult and teen sons to share smaller rooms on the same floor as their parents - it sort of creeps me out even more.  You can leave, Mr. 30-something son, but can go no farther than the backyard.    With your brothers.