Another 'raising boys to be tough using violence'

[Bookworm]

raisingmen.net/2011/09/wooden-spoons-2

I am thinking about what I want to post as my comment on his blog. He does not seem nearly as Pearlesque as some of the people we snark on, but still has that whole adversarial thing going on in a big way - as well as no sympathy for the kid getting whacked.

Maybe some of us could go over and *gently* point him to some of the resources on what the Bible says about spanking, the links to future sexuality, alternatives, the usual that we discuss over here when this topic comes up.

[FloraDoraDolly]

This guy sounds like a bully.

[debrand]

Regardless of their age, men often resemble pack animals in their need to find out where they stand in the hierarchy. Boys are famous for testing themselves against their dads; it’s just a natural part of the process of growing up

I have two boys. Although my kids are imperfect(like their parents), none have tried to test themselves against either my husband or I specifically.

One night at the dinner table, Tucker decided to demonstrate the latest “thing†going around with his buddies at school. Assuming a boxing stance, with hands up guarding his face, he reached out and lightly slapped me on the cheek. It was playful, and I knew he was just testing the waters, so I told him, very calmly and clearly, not to do it again. I’m not necessarily against that sort of thing, and if I had assumed the same pose and responded in kind, the game would have been on. This just wasn’t one of those times.

The situation was very clear, but Tucker decided to see if I really meant it. He reached out again.

When the dust settled, I was lying on top of Tucker, pressing his face into the carpet. His eyes were a bit wider than usual, and his voice was a little shaky as he responded to my questions. Ever so calmly, I asked him if he understood that when I said it was time to stop, that meant it was over. He assured me that he did. I explained at length my expectations for his behavior in the future, all in a controlled, steady tone of voice. He said he understood. It was a meeting of the minds.

What the heck? What a messed up relationship on both their parts. I can't imagine either of my boys ever striking their dad. If they started to play rough and their dad informed them that he wasn't in the mood, they would stop. We've taught them that we all have the rights to our own bodies. If someone says, "I don't want a hug right now." We don't hug that child, for instance. The results are that our kids respect us because we extend respect to them.

This father/son relationship has serious problems that didn't just come up in this one instance. What would happen if the son had physically been able to beat up his dad? Does respect end once a person realizes that he is stronger than someone else?

1.Parental Authority is absolute. If you choose to disregard that authority, the punishment will be swift and severe.

2.If obedience isn’t instant, it’s not obedience. We tried the “count to three†method early on, but the more we thought about it, the clearer it became that “one†and “two†just represented additional disobedience

.

Absolute parental authority(why does he capitalize the words?) doesn't sound Christian. Christianity clearly teaches that we are all imperfect. Therefore, we can all make mistakes and should be humble. That includes parents. If I tell my kids to do something that is immoral or wrong, they should disobey me. Also, sometimes, I'm wrong and need to listen to my children.

[debrand]

One more thing, He says:

This incident became a famous part of our family lore, since it was one of the very few times that I ever used physical force to discipline the boys.

Yet, he also writes that he carried a wooden spoon attached to his belt and one of his sons filled a pillow with spoons that he kept taking from the door. That sounds like a lot of spanking to me.

Tucker writes in the comments:

Tucker (victim) 

What they don’t tell you is that the wooden spoon evolved into this (http://tinyurl.com/3lrf7wu) a five gallon paint stirrer from Lowes. Cruel and unusual? I think so.


Reply 

 September 29 2011

1.Dave (dad) 


Effective? I think so. And one time we even let you decorate it before we used it! :-)

What amazes me is that the entire posts is an example that their parenting methods were complete failures. They ended up with one child who felt the need to physically challange their dad, others who snuck around and took things from drawers and kids who were over all so ill behaved that their parents had to take wooden spoons with them everywhere. Yet, they are trying to teach other people how to parent.

I don't doubt that they love their kids. Their post on wrestling with their little kids sounds like our family. It is sad that they couldn't take a step back to understand how their behavior contributed to creating problems with their kids. That is the problem with parents being always right. The adults don't have to reevaluate their own behavior.

edited for clairty

[kunoichi66]

So....the little boy who got manhandled to the floor....what happens when he grows up and becomes strong enough to really challenge Daddy?

I mean, don't get me wrong, I am not advocating that they let their son physically hit them, but my parents managed to get the message across to me (It's a stage all kids go through, not just boys) without pinning me to the ground.

[oscar]

So....the little boy who got manhandled to the floor....what happens when he grows up and becomes strong enough to really challenge Daddy?

I mean, don't get me wrong, I am not advocating that they let their son physically hit them, but my parents managed to get the message across to me (It's a stage all kids go through, not just boys) without pinning me to the ground.

My husband says his uncle would frequently threaten his cousins with "the belt" when they were little, and it got to the point where they wouldn't obey their father until he actually started hitting them, because that's when they knew he was serious and going to follow through with discipline. He says one of the most disturbing memories from his childhood is when his older cousin wrestled the belt away from his dad and chased him through the house hitting him with it, finally cornering his father in a bedroom, and then his younger cousin grabbed another belt and started hitting his dad too.

I think debrand's point is well-taken. If one claims spanking is necessary because one's kids don't listen until they're spanked, that speaks to a failure in parenting, rather than to the utility of spanking.

I used to care for a child who suffered from a neurological disorder and would self-injure during episodes of rage. I attended a multi-day workshop intended to educate paraprofessionals on the use of physical restraints, so that I could keep him safe at these times. It actually makes me feel sick to think of someone pinning a child to the ground as a "disciplinary technique" in response to ordinary naughtiness.

[Guest Anonymous]

I feel strongly about this issue so I posted a response, which is awaiting moderation. It will be interesting to see what he says although I am not so arrogant as to think I will be able to persuade him.

I think the idea of having a child decorate his own spanking implement is really disturbing. It's not clear whether that was Tucker's idea or the parents' idea, but there is something wrong when a child is forced or encouraged to be complicit in his own humiliation. It just adds a whole extra layer of degradation and brainwashing.

[kunoichi66]

He says one of the most disturbing memories from his childhood is when his older cousin wrestled the belt away from his dad and chased him through the house hitting him with it, finally cornering his father in a bedroom, and then his younger cousin grabbed another belt and started hitting his dad too.

This, or some variation thereof, is what will happen when the boy in the OP is no longer a little boy. I almost guarantee it.

Yes, Debrand hit the nail on the head, I think...

ugh, Doomed Harlot. I managed to miss that. Really? They really made him do that?

[debrand]

This, or some variation thereof, is what will happen when the boy in the OP is no longer a little boy. I almost guarantee it.

Yes, Debrand hit the nail on the head, I think...

ugh, Doomed Harlot. I managed to miss that. Really? They really made him do that?

It's in the comment section. Dave said that one time that let him decorate it before they used it. He puts this symbol after his statemetn ; -)

The comments are interesting to read

Jarrd

Love it! We too use the spoon. It’s like kid kryptonite when used properly.

Reply

September 29 2011

Steven Daniel

Spoons, switches, etc the key is consistent discipline and teamwork. Great job! Kudos to Dave and Karen!

Reply

September 29 2011

Rodney Isom

Very good post, Dave. I’m going to read through it again tonight with my wife and discuss trying to come up with some more purposeful discipline strategies around our house.

I remember riding to lunch with a co-worker once and asked him about the wooden spoon that was stuck in his sun visor. He said “That’s the ‘rod of correction’â€. According to him, it was quite effective.

Reply

[Koala]

These people are disturbing beyond belief. Blessings huh?

[kunoichi66]

Very disturbing.

And I just noticed that I am now born to be plaid lol

[sea_gale]

And the next day that kid goes to school and beats up some little kid because he can. I can only hope the scenario predicted where the kid beats up his father when he's big enough actually happens some day.

[margiebargie]

This, or some variation thereof, is what will happen when the boy in the OP is no longer a little boy. I almost guarantee it.

Yes, Debrand hit the nail on the head, I think...

I see something like this coming for this family. Really disturbing. These kids are never going to learn how to deal with interpersonal problems except by violence. Bad. Very bad.

[liltwinstar]

I'm reminded of a story from my family - my great-grandfather was apparently an abusive asshole, beating on his wife and kids when he could. He only stopped when his older teenage boys turned the tables on him. He tried to beat them, and they took a 2x4 and chased him around the yard. He never beat on his kids again, which was a good thing, but what a horrible position to be in as a child/teenager!!!

[kunoichi66]

I see something like this coming for this family. Really disturbing. These kids are never going to learn how to deal with interpersonal problems except by violence. Bad. Very bad.

Me too. It's a scary prospect, isn't it?

[AnnoDomini]

I think it's idiotic to call a spoon a 'rod'. My parents did that. And making the child decorate the thing that they know is going to cause them pain, or pick their own switch, that's horrible.

And the sexuality concerns are real.

[Rosa]

To be fair, a lot of kids are raised this way and learn on their own or from other settings (social, school, other family members) how to deal with things without violence. It's no credit to the parents, but to the kids.

It's really admirable and I know a lot of people who've done it. I don't like it when people act like bad parenting dooms the kids - it might doom the parent to a bad relationship with the child, but the child's going to grow up to be an adult who can make better choices.

(And, yeah, I know a lot of "...and then one day I hit him back. So the spanking stopped." stories, too. They're practically a manhood ceremony in certain social circles.)

[Bookworm]

It's such a relief to have this board to talk to about these kinds of people. One of the last times I went to church the pastor's daughter was talking casually about spanking and laughing about how slowly the kids would go up the stairs when told they were getting a spanking and they would be crying the whole way. It was completely nauseating to listen to and to see other people laughing also. That is actually not the main reason I only went a couple more times, but it made a big impression on me.

I notice the guy in the link has not posted any of our comments, what a surprise...

[Lostie]

This is sick. I've only been spanked once and I don't actually remember it, but I've heard the story. Apparently I was three years old and decided I would uproot all the houseplants and fling them around getting dirt everywhere.

I've only ever seen one person get spanked with a stirring rod - it was my best friends little brother. His mom pulled him out of the car and did it because he was hitting his sister and I. Also, the fact that they made him decorate it is really, really disturbing.

[myanimus]

One of the last times I talked to my mom she brought up one of her favorite stories about me.

I was in kindergarten and was invited to a boys house after school, he lived down the hill and across the street, being 5 I'd thought since dad worked graveyard and would be napping it'd be okay for a few minutes. When I got there I asked the mom to call and let them know where I was, dad immediately walked down to get me and (my moms favorite part of the story, she laughs and laughs as she re-tells it) dad grabbed a switch off the bushes as soon as we crossed the street and smacked my butt, legs, back with it all the way home. hahahaha, then she says "you never did that again did you" and typically winks.

[Bella99]

One of the last times I talked to my mom she brought up one of her favorite stories about me.

I was in kindergarten and was invited to a boys house after school, he lived down the hill and across the street, being 5 I'd thought since dad worked graveyard and would be napping it'd be okay for a few minutes. When I got there I asked the mom to call and let them know where I was, dad immediately walked down to get me and (my moms favorite part of the story, she laughs and laughs as she re-tells it) dad grabbed a switch off the bushes as soon as we crossed the street and smacked my butt, legs, back with it all the way home. hahahaha, then she says "you never did that again did you" and typically winks.

This makes me nauseous. You were a little kid who actually made sure your parents knew where you were. If anything, I think you deserved an attagirl for your thoughtfulness.

[Austin]

So....the little boy who got manhandled to the floor....what happens when he grows up and becomes strong enough to really challenge Daddy?

lol - so true, because that will happen and it's not always easy on the dads. Over the last six or seven years, our eldest son has overtaken his dad in size (well, they are about the same height, but our son is a much broader, bigger boned person) and overtaken him in athletic pursuits and it's been interesting to watch. A little like the passing of the torch, a little reminder of his (my husband's) mortality, and just a bit of a blow to male pride (dads are guys first, after all!).

If a father has the sort of relationship that the dad who is the subject of this thread has with his son, it seems to be about who is stronger. One day, the son will be stronger. So if superiority is based upon one person's ability to shove another's face into the carpet, imagine that dynamic once the shoe is on the other foot.

[pandora665]

To be fair, a lot of kids are raised this way and learn on their own or from other settings (social, school, other family members) how to deal with things without violence. It's no credit to the parents, but to the kids.

It's really admirable and I know a lot of people who've done it. I don't like it when people act like bad parenting dooms the kids - it might doom the parent to a bad relationship with the child, but the child's going to grow up to be an adult who can make better choices.

(And, yeah, I know a lot of "...and then one day I hit him back. So the spanking stopped." stories, too. They're practically a manhood ceremony in certain social circles.)

I know some men who refused to have children, b/c they were worried about the cycle repeating. It doesn't always doom the kids, but it can scare them off parenting entirely. So sad.

[kunoichi66]

kunoichi66 wrote:

So....the little boy who got manhandled to the floor....what happens when he grows up and becomes strong enough to really challenge Daddy?

lol - so true, because that will happen and it's not always easy on the dads. Over the last six or seven years, our eldest son has overtaken his dad in size (well, they are about the same height, but our son is a much broader, bigger boned person) and overtaken him in athletic pursuits and it's been interesting to watch. A little like the passing of the torch, a little reminder of his (my husband's) mortality, and just a bit of a blow to male pride (dads are guys first, after all!).

If a father has the sort of relationship that the dad who is the subject of this thread has with his son, it seems to be about who is stronger. One day, the son will be stronger. So if superiority is based upon one person's ability to shove another's face into the carpet, imagine that dynamic once the shoe is on the other foot.

[Kitty]

So....the little boy who got manhandled to the floor....what happens when he grows up and becomes strong enough to really challenge Daddy?

Simple. Boy challenges Daddy, Daddy realizes he can't just beat boy down, daddy calls cops.

This is why I hate, HATE, and have no respect for parents who use physical force on their children for every little infraction, and as a means to intimidate and frighten young children. A spanking or two won't break a kid forever, but that sort of shit will.