Dillards 41: Chocolate, Cheese, and Other Things More Interesting

[Cleopatra7]

34 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

He's still going y'all. 

Here's a quote from MLK, Derelict:. "I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; ...who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom". 

 

Based on my personal experience, most white conservatives (and not a few liberals) claim to believe that they think racism is bad, but when actually confronted with racism, they'll tell you that that situation isn't really racist or call you the racist for bringing the subject up in the first place. For Derick and his ilk, racism is not a problem, but having to think or talk about it is. Therefore, they think the only time it's appropriate for blacks to protest is never.

[Eatingintheprayercloset]

Derick is the worst if we pretend Joshly doesn't exist. Imagine being stuck with him all day? No wonder Jill seemed out of wack in CA.  Derick is going to have a preaching style of Steven Anderson. Honestly, I'm sure all the other Duggars excluding Ben feel the same way. These are the same people who support the likes of Mike Huckabee and Kim Davis. Derick is just the most unlikable one and has a severe case of Twitter fingers. He can debate on Twitter but will he ever passionately debate someone with an opposing view face-to-face? I doubt it.  

[FluffySnowball]

2 hours ago, Jinder Roles said:

He's still going y'all. 

Here's a quote from MLK, Derelict:. "I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; ...who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom". 

 

Yes to this quote a thousand times!

[SapphireSlytherin]

And now Twitter's considering doubling character limit to 280. WTF could Dwreck do with that?!?!

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/26/technology/twitter-280-characters.html

[bashfulpixie]

1 hour ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

And now Twitter's considering doubling character limit to 280. WTF could Dwreck do with that?!?!

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/26/technology/twitter-280-characters.html

Forget Derrick, what would the toddler occupying the White House do with that?

[VelociRapture]

22 minutes ago, bashfulpixie said:

Forget Derrick, what would the toddler occupying the White House do with that?

Actually get us all killed via nuclear war with North Korea instead of just making us worry about it?

[Lurky]

@Cleopatra7 My heart is with you, I am so sorry discrimination and racism is so commonplace.  Here's to a better future.

[Carm_88]

Derick exhausts me. That type of stupid and ignorance sucks the life out of me. There is inequality in this world, a whole shit load of it, Derick will likely not experience it but that doesn't mean it's not happening. Try to get your head out of your own ass and realize that there is more to life then the bible. 

[cascarones]

4 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

. There is inequality in this world, a whole shit load of it, Derick will likely not experience it but that doesn't mean it's not happening. Try to get your head out of your own ass and realize that there is more to life then the bible. 

Ahhh, but to Derick he is experiencing it. He can't express his opinions because of attacks on free speech and Christianity! Or the TLC muzzle he's clearly trying his hardest to shake loose of. He's lived in third world countries and knows how hard it is to stick out in a crowd. He's being held back in his ministering dreams by the devil or people unable to see how impactful he can be if they just give him a bit of fundraising! His understanding of patriotism and respect to the flag, national anthem and veterans is definitive and should be shared by all and if you don't see it through his eyes, well clearly you've got your color goggles on. He doesn't own a pair of color goggles, wouldn't even recognize them in a store, never heard of them, etc. His glasses only come in judgement strengths on everything but color, religion, sexuality, gender, politics, he's got a cabinet to choose from! 

In my head, Jill says, "Sammy, I've got to borrow your mittens."

Then determinedly puts them on Derick so he can't tweet until the Gumby hands she's ordered online arrive. 

[victoriasponge]

I come from a very different kind of country with a very different kind of patriotism than the US so can someone explain why sitting out the anthem or the pledge etc. etc. is seen as such a controversial move? The way I see it is that it's peaceful protest, it's peacefully saying you don't entirely agree with the country and won't be fully committed to accepting it in its current state. Or is it because it's black people doing it and they'd be fine with a white conservative sitting out the anthem to get angry about abortion still being legal? I'm just trying to get into their headspace and can't. I just can't imaging being that proud of my country... or the anthem for that matter.

But then I am the girl who sat there wondering what kind of dystopia I was in when I had to say the pledge every morning after flag raising for three months and also stand respectfully while it's lowered. I only ever see the Union Jack when it's World Cup time. I did learn your anthem though, we were told we had to know it. I especially like the part to the tune of 'We wish you a merry Christmas', it definitely fit in June.

[SadieJane]

Better he tweet than pay enough attention to his kids to realize it's time to blanket train...  though I'm going to call him Dillhole now. It cannot be helped

[Cleopatra7]

4 hours ago, victoriasponge said:

I come from a very different kind of country with a very different kind of patriotism than the US so can someone explain why sitting out the anthem or the pledge etc. etc. is seen as such a controversial move? The way I see it is that it's peaceful protest, it's peacefully saying you don't entirely agree with the country and won't be fully committed to accepting it in its current state. Or is it because it's black people doing it and they'd be fine with a white conservative sitting out the anthem to get angry about abortion still being legal? I'm just trying to get into their headspace and can't. I just can't imaging being that proud of my country... or the anthem for that matter.

I think it's less about the anthem per se, and more that conservatives think black people are being insufficently submissive. They'd like us to be more like this:

http://www.thejumpingfrog.com/?page=shop/flypage&product_id=1322138

Protests undertaken by blacks, no matter how nonviolent, are perceived as violent because they challenge the pervasive view that blacks are just supposed to be a perpetually servile and disenfranchised group. This is why black activist and scholar W. E.B. Dubois wrote that white racists would prefer one hundred black criminals to one hundred black PhDs, because the former reinforce the white supremacist narrative and are relatively easy to control via the power of the state, whereas the latter are going to actively challenge white supremacy because they know there's no foundation for it.

ETA The picture I linked to above is a Cream of Wheat ad from about a hundred years ago. Cream of Wheat is a kind of hot cereal (I had some this morning in fact) and for a long time its mascot was a stereotypical plantation "darkie" chef, which resulted in monstrosities like the above ad. The modern mascot is a more stylized black chef with all of the plantation elements removed, but such casually racist images were very common pre-Civil Rights era. I wanted to explain this, since the writing on the picture is small and the context might not be clear, especially to non-American FJers.

[VelociRapture]

@victoriaspongeI think it honestly depends on the person.

- There are some people, likely a small minority, who honestly feel it is disrespectful towards the military. These people usually have either served themselves or a loved one gave their life for their country. I've noticed that the Vets who seem most against it are usually people like my father - those who served in Vietnam - which actually makes a lot of sense. It was a highly unpopular war at the time and the returning soldiers were treated abysmally by the general population. Many of those soldiers had no choice in the matter as they were drafted, but my dad chose to enlist in the Marines (because if he was going to be drafted anyways he at least wanted a say in the branch he served with.)

So, to me, it makes a ton of sense that Vets of a highly unpopular war and treated like crap for years might be more against this specific protest than the general populace or even other Vets (many Vets from recent years I know support their rights to protest, even if they don't necessarily agree or like the manner they've chosen.)

- Then you have other people, I suspect a pretty sizable group, who are just using this as an excuse to tell black people and minorities what to do - which would be "shut up and entertain me" or "those white (NFL) owners should tell the (black) son of a bitch what to do." I'd classify Derick in this category because I don't think he truly cares about the troops. If he did he'd be using his platform to draw attention to issues impacting veterans on a regular basis, not just when it's convenient or seems "popular" to do so.

- Then you have people like the President, who are usually political figures. They may or may not honestly believe what they're saying (I think they do), but they see an opportunity to distract from other news (hi Russia investigation!) and they take it. Pretty despicable to inflame racial tensions further for political gain in my opinion.

All that said: The US has a code for how to treat the American flag and part of it does state that you should stand and face it during the anthem. It also bans it from being used on commercial products like swimsuits and napkins, but it seems people conveniently forget that part. So for people like my dad who fought and served honorably it can honestly feel insulting. Which is sad because that isn't the point of the protest at all and the players who started it all have made that pretty clear. 

As for me... I'm a daughter of a Veteran. It hurts me far more to go to our Memorial Day parade and see people refusing to stand and applaud the Veterans passing by* then it does to see professional athletes peacefully taking a knee during the anthem. One is a blatant sign of not caring or disrespect. The other is a peaceful way to draw massive attention towards an important issue. 

*And yes, this has happened for the past several years. My dad isn't one to show much negative emotion - he's a pretty jolly guy - but I can tell how hurt he is by it. And honestly, I'm hurt too. The fucking parade is to honor the soldiers who sacrificed their lives for this country, not so you can sit on your ass and only move to cheer for little Sally or little Timmy when they pass by with their sports team. 

ETA: I should add that there's likely a lot of overlapping between the groups I mentioned. There are likely people who truly believe it's disrespectful to the military who also have racist beliefs coloring their opinion. And there are likely politicians using it for political gain who honestly also think it's disrecptful as well. 

[AtlanticTug]

I find it fairly troublesome that it appears that the military has co-opted the flag such that the flag is synonymous with supporting them. Sorry, the flag represents every single citizen and it's very simplistic to couch it in rah-rah patriotic terms focused entirely on the military and dying abroad. We have teachers in the inner cities, nurses and doctors and firefighters and every one of us and the flag equally represents us all. Not meant at any post in this thread, just a general observation of a trend that I personally find really distasteful.

[victoriasponge]

@Cleopatra7 thanks for that insight, and it does make sense. Sucks that it's 2017 and there's still such a wide acceptance of shitty beliefs and opinions but the best the rest of us can do is listen to people like you and try and educate, I guess. The same thing happens here when it's a group who's seen less favourably. Student protests are always talked about like they're the most violent thing on the planet, even if it was peaceful until police bring in tear gas. Black and feminist marches are always treated similarly, especially black marches. I guess I just don't understand it, I was raised in a house where I was told to respect people's right to march/protest and argue with what they're saying, not with what they're doing, if I had a disagreement with them.

 

@VelociRapture and thanks for your insight too. The culture in the US is definitely very different to here in the UK but I'd be angry in either case if someone doesn't stand to respect those who served. I do think, and this is probably because of the country I'm from, that the flag is something different to respecting the military/being grateful for sacrifice, but I also understand that the flag in the US has become something very different than what it is here. My problem, I suppose, is with that second group. Those black (and white) players are people before they're commodities and deserve to be respected as such. Like I said, I stood for the flag and said the pledge and sang the anthem when I was there. I have my issues with American patriotism but I wasn't going to disrespect a culture and a country. But for the players, who have discussed why they are doing what they are doing, I'd rather the discussion was more mature and nuanced than how it has been represented. Basically, Derick sucks is what I've been trying to say, and really needs to use that college education he received. It's not as simple as just 'he doesn't respect America' which is how it's been discussed a lot.

[VelociRapture]

9 minutes ago, AtlanticTug said:

I find it fairly troublesome that it appears that the military has co-opted the flag such that the flag is synonymous with supporting them. Sorry, the flag represents every single citizen and it's very simplistic to couch it in rah-rah patriotic terms focused entirely on the military and dying abroad. We have teachers in the inner cities, nurses and doctors and firefighters and every one of us and the flag equally represents us all. Not meant at any post in this thread, just a general observation of a trend that I personally find really distasteful.

I think that's due more to politics or the brass than the actual rank and file soldiers to be honest. It's easier to maintain order over your troops if you give them a tangible symbol to fight for (I think this is what you meant, but I wasn't sure.)

I also don't think this is really a new thing either. I wouldn't be surprised if some of this dates back to past Wars - like the World Wars or the Civil War, both periods of time when patriotism was in high demand for various reasons. Or to periods of massive political turmoil, like the Red Scare.

@victoriaspongeYou're welcome! I agree. I do find the type of patriotism in the US problematic in some ways. I think the people screaming loudest about this (hi Derick!) are likely the ones who don't actually care about helping vets on issues they truly need help with - things like homelessness or unemployment or obtaining adequate medical care through the VA. They see an easy way of looking patriotic by shooting out a quick tweet and they walk away feeling high and mighty because they "helped." 

Its just an added bonus that this specific protest also allows the worst of us to belittle and speak over black people who have the nerve to, you know, advocate for their lives and their rights. 

[victoriasponge]

On a somewhat related note, here is my proof that racism-imbued stupidity is not just an American quality. As you can see here lots of Brits are worried the Labour Party are supporting Islam (god forbid) by holding their conference in front of a mosque.

It's actually a palace... From my home city... That was used as a royal brothel... but racists will be racists and this has made me giggle quite a lot. I suggest we get all of them and all of the Dericks of the world together in one place and let them duel it out. (and yes, anyone who makes it to the UK should visit the Pavilion, it's stunning inside and out)

[Lurky]

Re the USA flag code - obvs I'm not American, but this great veteran has been posting about all the things that the Code prohibits, that people blithely ignore, while it's just should stand.  His point is that he fought so people had the freedom to peacefully protest, so he's backing #TakeTheKnee all the way.  I posted this in the Rodrigues thread too, as Jill R is of course also showing her ass about this, but it's worth repeating

http://www.9news.com/news/local/next/veteran-uses-us-flag-code-to-defend-nfl-players-kneeling-during-the-national-anthem/478496709

People like @VelociRapture's family aside, it's pretty clear that racism is motivating a lot of the people frothing about the protesters, because Tim Tebow taking a knee to protest abortion was A-OK to them.  And the whole "it disrespects the military" seems to have originated with non-military folk like Trump, and THAT has pissed off a lot of military & veterans I'm seeing on twitter/FB/all over the internet (especially the Black veterans/military, who the right wing seem to be conveniently forgetting exist).

But it's such a uniquely American protest, and response, because nowhere else in the western world has this kind of feeling about their flag/anthem, especially not in a sporting context.

[HereticHick]

Those of us who serve in the US federal government, in both military and civilian positions, are required to swear an oath to the Constitution:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic;..."

 The Constitution is more important than the flag or anthem.

 

[lomo6]

@AtlanticTug - the association between the military, the flag, and major league sports is very intentional. Senators John McCain and Jeff Flake (both Republicans from Arizona) did an investigation into "paid patriotism" by the Department of Defense, which paid professional teams $6.8mn over four years to stage patriotic events like color guard ceremonies, the national anthem, military tributes, etc. 

And in the NFL, players have only been required to stand for the national anthem since 2009. 

You can find more about the paid patriotism here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/defense-military-tributes-professional-sports_us_5639a04ce4b0411d306eda5e

More on the history of NFL players standing during the antehm: http://people.com/politics/nfl-players-national-anthem-2009-government-payments/

Basically, Derick doesn't know what the ef he is talking about, but is just parroting right wing reactions. 

[cascarones]

@VelociRapture broke it down more eloquently than I could to such a nuanced question. I'll add another layer since I chatted with my parents about it last night. They're both veterans, met while stationed together, my dad was career and my mom doesn't know much outside the military. She was a military dependent, an officer then a military spouse when kids came along. They've got different views on the issue, my dad doesn't view it as disrespectful to the military at all, though Trump and his fake pro-Veteran stance irks him. My mom does, she was raised mainly outside the US at various bases, so the flag to her is very much a symbol of home, of the group she belonged to in places where she stuck out like a sore thumb.  She also says he just likes football, so she wishes he and my brothers would agree to boycott because she hates it.

What struck me about their conversation was an underlying difference in early experiences. My dad clearly remembers "school integration", desegregation and the Civil Rights movement. My mom is younger and never was in white only classrooms or America until she was college aged, so there's less of an ability to connect to why the protests are happening this way (public platform vs. other options). My dad grew up very poor in a small town in GA and the Native American heritage shows, but back then if you could pass for white you lied through your teeth to avoid the stigma. What he remembers is he got to go to school with the kids who lived by him and everybody was happy because the school started serving free milk and breakfast, which helped his family tremendously in getting by. 

Clearly, that's not everyone's story, but it definitely brings to light an age component in people's relationship with the protests and patriotism. 

ETA back to Mr. Dillard: The milk thing goes back to privilege as well, poor schools were desegregated with little to no fuss, because they were able to improve the quality of life of those families with something as small as a glass of milk at the beginning of class. Issues happened in middle class and well off communities, same as the thought that NFL players shouldn't be protesting, they should be "thankful" they're rich and famous.  As far as I can tell, Derick has never gone without, never been discriminated against on the basis of something he cannot change or hide. He's a white male who gets backlash when he opens his mouth, but he has the full option to meter his words and avoid online scrutiny.  He chooses not to and has that right, but those being profiled and treated with faster escalations of violence don't have that option.

[VelociRapture]

@Lurky To be honest, I have zero doubts that my dad is one of those people falling into multiple groups. I don't think he intentionally does it, but he's likely one of those people who does have unconscious biases coloring his view here. I love the man very much, but I look to my mom for examples on how to act and treat others. 

I mostly mentioned my dad just as an example of why there may be a generational divide between Veterans on this. Thankfully, WW2 Vets and Veterans of more recent conflicts weren't treated the way that Vietnam Vets were. The only thing some of those Vets have to feel proud of or cling to is the idea that they served their country. So any perceived slight, real or imagined, is likely to be pretty hurtful to them.

I want to be clear: I don't think opposing the protests is right, regardless of you're (general yous here) reasons why. I respect that you have as much a right to oppose it as others do to support it though. All I ask is that people on both sides take the time to educate themselves about the issues prompting this specific protest - because if those issues are actually addressed properly then maybe no one would feel a need to take a knee to make a point.  

(And personally, I support their right to protest peacefully. It may not be the protest I would choose, but they aren't harming anyone and they found a way to draw a lot of attention to something they feel strongly about. I have a lot of respect for that.)

@cascaronesExcellent points!

@lomo6 Now that you mention McCain, I saw this earlier and shared it on the Trump thread in QoP:

http://people.com/politics/trump-revels-in-john-mccains-dire-cancer-battle-as-promises-obamacare-repeal-one-yes-vote-in-hospital/

So peacefully protesting racism during the national anthem is disrespectful, but the fucking President gleefully anticipating the death of an actual 81 year old war hero isn't?! 

[louisa05]

1 hour ago, AtlanticTug said:

I find it fairly troublesome that it appears that the military has co-opted the flag such that the flag is synonymous with supporting them. Sorry, the flag represents every single citizen and it's very simplistic to couch it in rah-rah patriotic terms focused entirely on the military and dying abroad. We have teachers in the inner cities, nurses and doctors and firefighters and every one of us and the flag equally represents us all. Not meant at any post in this thread, just a general observation of a trend that I personally find really distasteful.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I've been saying this to myself and not saying it out loud so I don't get slammed. 

This seems to have emerged since 2001. And I think it is very damaging. A quest to respect the military and its veterans more than during the Vietnam era has morphed into military above all else. In the midst of that, the flag and the anthem and other national symbols have become, in so many people's minds, symbols only of and for the military and not a symbol of the country or its values. 

[Lurky]

The thing that gets me about the "oh they're rich, why are they complaining?" types is missing that facts that:

1. being rich doesn't protect them for being stopped for Driving Whilst Black, or shot in the head for having a busted tail-light, or having to give their children advice on how not to get shot by the police.  Here in the UK, the famous Formula 1 driver Lewis Hamilton used to get stopped a lot because the police can't believe a mixed race man hasn't stolen that beautiful car, for example.  Hell, I remember, when I was in my 20s, the week the Bishop of Southwark, a member of the House of Lords, and Stephen Lawrence's dad were all stopped and treated as suspicious, in ways their white counterparts would never have been.

2. Even if they're wealthy now, lots of them weren't born that way, and I absolutely admire people who don't forget their roots and use their voice and privilege to raise issues affecting people who don't have the same platform.  I can't believe Christians are saying that wealthy people shouldn't care about the poor etc!  Have they even read the Gospels?

It's baffling to me. 

[Knight of Ni]

People are starting to post that meme on Facebook with Tim Tebow taking a knee praying next to the current players taking a knee. Saying that one man took a knee and was persecuted while others took a knee and were applauded. I'm wondering how on earth Tebow was persecuted. Not getting an NFL contract renewed is not persecution. He didn't get his spot in the NFL because he prayed it was because of his performance on the field.