Joy and Austin 13: Another Duggar Pregnancy Grandbaby 10

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

11 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

Looking back, this 30year old would start in her earliest twenties to get pregnant. If you wish you would have gotten your child later in life- your child would be someone else and you would have raised it differently. Maybe you wouldn't have been able to get pregnant at all. I can see where you coming from but you realise it is not like getting the child you have now just later or in an improved version. You would be different, your experiences would have been different, you would raise it different.

There will never be the one right way. We might think it would have been better if things were different but there is no certainty. 

(snipped and my bold)

I agree that there is never just one right way. Please remember, though (with regard to the bolded sentence), that the reverse is true. "If you wish you would have gotten your child earlier in life--your child would be someone else and you would have raised it differently."

I had my kids at 38 and 40 years old. I have sometimes wondered how my parenting style would have differed if I had become a mom at 28 or 22. I generally conclude that in my case, my lower energy level in my 40s is offset by my greater level of patience than when I was younger. There can be advantages and disadvantages in starting a family at any age. (In my case, I didn't even meet my husband until I was 27.)

I have family members who have had kids at ages from an 18 year old mom to a 54 year old dad. People can be awesome parents at many different ages. Or they can suck at being parents at any age. I just hope Joy and Austin don't suck at being younger parents.

ETA--I didn't quote you to lecture you or argue. I guess you just gave me a good spot to jump in with a thought. Thanks. 

[just_ordinary]

@WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? Absolutely no offence taken. You are right. I just didn't include this example because the majority of responses here was about wishing to be older. 

I wish I would have started earlier because I believe that I would have had an easier time to conceive (nature is a bitch sometimes) and hold on to pregnancy and of course more time for treatments if it wasn't going to happen. I truly regret it right now, but then, it might have been the same.

[LawsonBatesEgo]

9 hours ago, BlessaYourHeart said:

Theres a lot of things wrong with Joy's situation (like her cult upbringing) but being pregnant at 19 isn't one of them. 

Gosh this thread has just brought home how judgemental people are. Not all 19 year olds are special snowflakes who can't look after themselves without mummy or daddy. 

i'm not suggesting Joy is incapable of being a good mother or anything, I was just expressing sadness that she was never truly given a choice when it came to life direction and that she is missing out on a lot of the normal and fun experiences that teenage girls enjoy. My parents were not much older than Joy and Austin when I was born in the mid 1980s, and they always told me as a teenager that while they don't regret having me, I should experience life before having children. 

[BlessaYourHeart]

5 hours ago, JillyO said:

I think @BlessaYourHeart is rightfully contradicting the narrative that quite a few posters follow of saying "But Joy is just a child. She's a baby having a baby. My own 19 year-old can't even wipe his own butt."

Nobody says that it's great that Joy is married and pregnant, since she really had no other choice except to remain a J'slave. But that has absolutely nothing to do with her age. If she was 22 or 25 or 30, she would not have experienced anything she hasn't experienced now. She would not be more mature than she is now. The only issue I see with her age is the potential additional years of childbearing. That's it.

This is exactly what what I was trying to say! Thank you Jillyo!

[ScorpiousMalfoy]

6 hours ago, JillyO said:

I think @BlessaYourHeart is rightfully contradicting the narrative that quite a few posters follow of saying "But Joy is just a child. She's a baby having a baby. My own 19 year-old can't even wipe his own butt."

Nobody says that it's great that Joy is married and pregnant, since she really had no other choice except to remain a J'slave. But that has absolutely nothing to do with her age. If she was 22 or 25 or 30, she would not have experienced anything she hasn't experienced now. She would not be more mature than she is now. The only issue I see with her age is the potential additional years of childbearing. That's it.

I agree with that. I never understand people reacting so emotionally to fundies doing fundie things. Of course it was going to happen. They don't believe in birth control. They are married and young and find each other attractive. They started having sex. That's what gets you preggers. I find it strange that people are expecting the Duggar kidults to suddenly stop living the life they were programmed to live ever since they were born. I am not saying it's impossible, but it's highly unlikely.

[mstee]

I miscarried a few months ago, but for the weeks I was pregnant I just wore dresses. I didn't realize that the hormones could make you bloat right away. My pants still fit, but were so uncomfortable. I could see myself looking like joy within a short amount of time if I were wearing a snug t-shirt when I get pregnant again. I'm shorter and have a larger chest, like her. I think she does look a little large for how far along we're guessing she is, but I could definitely see how that can happen. 

[Queen]

My stomach is about the same size as Joy's and I'm not, have never been, pregnant. It's just a wonderful food baby made out of chocolate, pizza and french fries  

We all know that pregnancy is just a result of unprotected sex and that it happens easier to some than to others, without meaning anything; it's about luck, fertility rates, age, opportunities etc. etc. Two people concieving a child  doesn't say anything about their ability to provide a loving, stable, progressive environment for their offspring (or JRod would never had gotten pregnant at all, much less have 12 soon 13 children!). We know that. But for them (Joystin) they seem to see it like their god has seen them and liked them and their views of life, and therefore blessed them so soon with a baby. It's a sign that they are So Very Godly... 

And already the 10th? Bleh, the Duggars are growing. I wish Spurgeon will one day lead the uprising of the eleventy thousand grandchildren against pathriarchy and fundamentalism  

[Bethella]

11 hours ago, candygirl200413 said:

I know we know Austin is definitely one of the better husbands because we know he can provide financial but do we have a clue about what house they're living at? I might have seen it was probs a Jboob house but just wanted to make sure

Austin owns a house in Elkins (the mailing address is Fayetteville), about half way between the TTH and his parents. It appears to be the only house he currently owns, so the assumption is that they are living there. The pictures on zillow show that it needed a lot of work.

[Markie]

I worry about the next generation. The Duggars have had a subpar education. I cannot imagine how Joy is going to teach; she doesn't come off as all that bright.  I really hope Jessa joins a co-op if she does home school. Jill will not expose her kids to any texts outside of religious ones; she couldn't even think of a favourite novel. I think Anna Duggar is the best prepared to teach her kids. She took some ECE courses before she married J'douche. 

[Jenn The Heathen]

10 minutes ago, Markie said:

I worry about the next generation. The Duggars have had a subpar education. I cannot imagine how Joy is going to teach; she doesn't come off as all that bright.  I really hope Jessa joins a co-op if she does home school. Jill will not expose her kids to any texts outside of religious ones; she couldn't even think of a favourite novel. I think Anna Duggar is the best prepared to teach her kids. She took some ECE courses before she married J'douche. 

I worry about this too.  I'll never forget one of the early specials, Michelle with all the kids around the dining room table teaching them about bankruptcy.  Joy was 4 at the time and Michelle specifically singled her out for further clarification.  I also remember teenage Douche saying something that made absolutely no sense when giving a toast to his grandfather in one of the early specials.  The dining room table is failing this generation of Duggars.

I think maybe any kids Jinjer may have will have a shot considering Jeremy seems fairly intelligent and went to college.  I used to think the same for the baby Dillys, but now that Derek has lost his damn mind, hope is not high.

[Rachel333]

The Christian homeschoolers co-op in the area isn't particularly impressive, IMO. I'm not sure why, but the Duggars never joined it anyway . Maybe the next generation will take a different approach though.

[Four is Enough]

The christian homeschoolers in the area are probably not the Right Kind of Christian... the Duggars are SO insular.

 

It's frightening and disheartening. Their education will suck.

[JesusCampSongs]

2 hours ago, Jenn The Heathen said:

I think maybe any kids Jinjer may have will have a shot considering Jeremy seems fairly intelligent and went to college.  I used to think the same for the baby Dillys, but now that Derek has lost his damn mind, hope is not high.

IIRC Jeremy was homeschooled, but I could see him sending his kids to a private Christian school, especially if he winds up pastoring at a church with an attached school. I could also see him letting them play sports, either at school or as part of a club association. Either way, I think their kids will have more social connections than their cousins will, unfortunately.

[Bethella]

3 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

The Christian homeschoolers co-op in the area isn't particularly impressive, IMO. I'm not sure why, but the Duggars never joined it anyway . Maybe the next generation will take a different approach though.

They're getting to the point where the Duggars could have their own homeschool co-op. Everyone meets at the TTH and each mom takes an age group. 

[calimojo]

I have to respectfully Disagree with @BlessaYourHeart, though I appreciate your comments.

  I think that the reason so many of us are lamenting that Joy is starting a family so young, is multifactoral.  For some,  it is simply because 19 seems young by moderns standards.  40 years ago, it might not have seemed so young to us. 

Also, remember many of us  have watched the duggars since the beginning and Joy was just a little girl there.  She had a special spark and spunky personality.  I think many of us envisioned she may not just follow along with the family plan, so it is disappointing to see that eventually she was marinated in QF stew. 

Watching her grow up,  I think it is normal for many of, especially those of us who are a bit older, to still see Joy as that little spunky 'tom-boy'.  Add to that her obvious emotional immaturity, and it easy to think of her as too young to reproduce.

The lack of choice is bothersome.  The fact that Joy was likely never told, let alone encouraged to find her own way in life is depressing as hell.  As someone else said,  if she had free choice and chose early marriage and young motherhood, that would be different.  But the only choice she was given was get married, have kids or be a SAHD. 

Those of us who are commenting that 19 is young, are probably significantly older.  I really want to ask those of you who are much younger to have some respect for our perspective of life.  Many of us had children at young ages, we understand the full scope of what that means in terms of how life will progress.  We understand that if Joy starts at 19 she has sooooo many years ahead to be enslaved into joyful availability, followed by catching as many babies as God wants.  Now,  this might play out differently depending on how her birth's go, but aside from Jill,  we have no reason to believe that births will be hard for all the Duggar daughters.  Jessa's difficulties seem to have been a kind of fluke, rather than a possible pattern. 

And I think criticizing fellow FJer's about infantilizing is really way off base.  If we infantilize Joy, it is because her parents have infantilized her along with most of their other kids.  Many have already stated that when you compare Joy side by side with Alyssa Bates at the same age, the difference is stark.  Alyssa was a very mature and confident 19 year old.  She wasn't asking John on her wedding day how to wear her hair and clinging to him with baited breath waiting for his direction.  So in any infantilizing is being done it is being done based on what we know of Joy, what we know of her upbringing, and how she behaves. 

She is not a mature 19 year old.  Austin, however, seems to be a mature young man.  And I do believe that Joy has a good work ethic, at least as a Duggar.  I think Joy is young enough that she will grow up and mature quickly.  She will gain her confidence and she will work as a partner with Austin as we have already seen.  One thing about 19 year olds is they are sponges.  They learn quickly, they are nimble and quick to adapt. They have a lot of energy, and their naivete' about the world can work in their favor as they can be exuberant and optimistic.    Joy will likely be fine, even if we all mourn for her lack of choice.   She will blossom any time she is away from the toxic home.  She has a husband who really does seem to love her, they have nice chemistry, and his family seems to really adore Joy.  This isn't the worst situation she could find herself in.  

[ihaveanexamintwodays]

4 hours ago, Markie said:

I worry about the next generation. The Duggars have had a subpar education. I cannot imagine how Joy is going to teach; she doesn't come off as all that bright.  I really hope Jessa joins a co-op if she does home school. Jill will not expose her kids to any texts outside of religious ones; she couldn't even think of a favourite novel. I think Anna Duggar is the best prepared to teach her kids. She took some ECE courses before she married J'douche. 

I think Jessa would be okay with co-op homeschooling. She was very clearly the "principal" of the SODRDT based on basically any 19kac segment that featured homeschooling lol, so I could see her being a good disciplinarian and making sure the kids study and do their work and also helping explain things, but letting go of some of the actual teaching responsibilities, esp for older grades. Also, Ben's siblings have done co-op stuff (Guinn Seewald recently posted a pic of one of the girls going back to school) so I think that influence is good.

I could see Jinger going the same route, or doing Christian private school. 

Jill will be ridiculously overwhelmed homeschooling if she has any more than 4-5 kids, and Izzy/Sam will definitely get stuck helping helping future Dillard babies do school. Derick seems to be the kind of headship that is totally clueless about his family. I don't blame him, he lost his father and never had any sort of responsibility over his only sibling, so he probably things Jill is all-knowledgeable on the family front and listens to anything she claims....plus now he's also gone crazy-christian-missionary route and just seems to expect Jill to do her thing while being drug around the world or wherever. Regardless, no matter where they are, Jill is so thin-skinned that there's no way in hell it'll work out well....  

[calimojo]

We don't know if Derick had sibling responsibilities or not and his dad died when he was in college, so it isn't as if he had no father figure role model. 

There is no easy excuse for Derick's disappointing headship abilities.  He seems ill-suited to it and he lacks insight into his own behavior let alone Jill's.  Derick is not thriving in this situation.  Staying Stateside for awhile, with his own family closer by, will hopefully be good for him.  With his severe weight loss, and poor nutrition/inability to eat,  he may have been experiencing metabolic changes that impacted his ability to think clearly and critically.  Poor nutrition can cause cognitive impairment.  Maybe if his health improves, he weight stabilizes,  he will start to think and process more normally.

 

 

[just_ordinary]

@calimojo we actually don't have much material to judge Alyssa Bates on around her wedding. Even if, this shows are so scripted that I almost don't believe 90% of it. Of course I believe the general topic (uber Christian family) but the characterisations are stereotyped to work in plot lines (work for a tv network- my advise: believe nothing! Make up your own mind after checking several sources with different views). 

This doesn't mean I disagree about our principle concerns about those cults and the harm they do.

[calimojo]

good point.  Of course for me,  you can see that Alyssa, who has had far less exposure to TV through out her life than Joy has had, was more poised and projected more personal confidence during her short appearances on TV when she was about 19- now Joy on the other hand has been in the public eye most of her life.  And, her maturity level hasn't really changed a whole lot since she was about 13 or 14. 

But you are right, this is what we see on an edited and scripted 'reality' show.  Off Camera, Joy may be a paragon of maturity and Alyssa Bates might be an immature person. 

[BlessaYourHeart]

@calimojo My original post was more to do with the fact that people where constantly commenting saying things like: 

'Oh no she's a child having a child' 

'19 year olds are too young to be parents' 

'My 19 year old can't look after him/herself' 

Basically a lot of people were saying that 19 year olds are not responsible and cannot do anything for themselves. Which is a sweeping generalisation and nonsensical. I'm sure all of the younger people here completely respect that older posters have more life experience and perspective. However, with these sweeping generalisations being applied to all 19 year olds it's disrespectful to now 19 year olds or just slightly older whom none of the generalisations apply to. It's even more disrespectful to those who had children at 18/19/20 and were good parents. My issue was that people where basically saying a 19 year old is a child, who is lazy and irresponsible and  who cannot be an effective parent which is wrong and ridiculous.  

Now I'm aware that Joy is different from most 19 year olds because she's a Duggar. In saying that though she is just as emotionally stunted as Jill or Jessa yet no one seems to have a problem with them having low maturity and having children, seemingly because they are in their 20's. When in fact all 3 were/are working at around the same age of maturity during first pregnancy so the concern that Joy is 'too young' to have a child should be applied to all 3. You mention Alyssa Bates and how mature she was for 19 but in reality she was given the same narrow life choices as Joy. The Bates may have been better at letting their children's personalities develop but onetheless they stunted, sheltered and indoctrinated their children with Gothardism just as much as the Duggars did. Alyssa had no more emotional maturity that Joy does when she first fell pregnant. Marriage was always going to be both girls only life goal while still at home.

My infantilisation comment was directed towards people saying 'oh no shes a child, shes 19 she shouldn't be pregnant'. When in fact she's a legal adult with the right to have a child. Now the baggage that is passed onto that child because of the messed up nature of the Duggars is the bigger issue to me; not the fact that she is 19. No matter what her maturity is she is still legally an adult, not a child. It's sad yes that Joy was never given the opportunity to explore a career or education and was set up by her parents simply to marry and have children. But that was going to happen be it 19 or 29 and she wasn't going to be any more mature at 29 than she is now. 

We don't actually know if Joy will be QF as of yet. This is only baby 1 and Austin's family have limited their family size. So I wont comment their until we see what happens in the future. 

 

I just think theres more snark worthy and worrying things about Joy's life than being married and pregnant at 19. She isn't a child bride or a child mum. However, she is from an extremely messed up family; a trump supporter; anti-choice; anti-womans rights and has some pretty harmful beliefs which will no doubt be passed to the child. I think that is more worthy of our worry and discussion than trying to make it out as though she is a child having a child.

[JenniferJuniper]

12 minutes ago, calimojo said:

Derick is not thriving in this situation.  Staying Stateside for awhile, with his own family closer by, will hopefully be good for him.  With his severe weight loss, and poor nutrition/inability to eat,  he may have been experiencing metabolic changes that impacted his ability to think clearly and critically.  Poor nutrition can cause cognitive impairment. 

I lean more towards mental health issues, and I don't mean that in a snarky way.  It seems as though he was happiest/coping best when he was solo and doing whatever he was doing in Nepal.  Now with a wife and kids and under public scrutiny via the reality show that both gives and takes, he seems very unwell, certainly physically but likely mentally as well.

The latest grifting attempt was weird even by their standards. 

[calimojo]

not all 19 year olds are immature, but no matter how you slice it,  19 is young by todays standards in the US for having a baby.  It doesn't stand to reason that it will be a bad thing, or that she can't cope with it, but the reason, that those of us that are mentioning this is this:

Specifically for JOY, because she is a Duggar and raised to believe she must have as many babies as God allows,  Once she starts having kids, that is now her reality.  In other words,  if she had been able to go a year or more without starting a family,  I think the reaction would be different because we would have felt like she had some time to consider this, and to experience a few things.   But in her reality this isn't just about Joy having 1 kid, it is about Joy kicking off a long future with baby after baby. 

But,  you are right, in that we are projecting a future on to Joy, that might not come about.  We don't know Austin's take on this.  He may not be as committed to the big families as he indicated.   They may have one kid now, and decide it was more than they expected and start to space them out, or stop after 1-2.  

But, it is a reaction, based on what we know about the Duggars, based on Joy saying she wants as many kids as God will give her, that we are thinking it is very young for her to start her never ending brood of kids. 

And,  if you go back in time,  there were many people who were disappointed to see Jill and Jessa get pregnant so quickly.  Everyone was hoping that these girls would get a year or two of a break in taking care of babies and little kids before they started having their own.  From a maturity point of view, I think many expected Jill to take to motherhood easily as she seemed most connected to her buddy group, and I think many expected the Jessa might wait a bit because Ben was so young and also she seemed less maternal than Jill. 

Well,  this is clearly a good example of what you are saying because what many of us expected turned out to not be as true as we thought.  Jill seemed to not be as naturally suited to mothering, and Jessa surprised us all by seeming to take to motherhood very smoothly.  So definitely giving you credit that it is a fair point to make that we shouldn't make assumptions based on age or even their image they project on TV>

[victoriasponge]

I'm 20 now, and while I'm sure I could look after a baby successfully now were I to get pregnant, my life still looks very different to Joy's. I'm at university, so is my boyfriend, I have a part-time job and friends from a variety of backgrounds. In many ways, I'd probably be losing more than Joy were I to get pregnant - potentially pushing back when I'd graduate and get my degree and I'd be in financial difficulty because my parents have always said I can't raise a child in their house. Joy isn't really losing that, she never got a good education, and would never really have the choice to work. It's a totally different situation, and I accept that.

But I do feel for her, and worry about her. She's never explored the world, or gone anywhere alone. She's had so few options, and maybe this is the best for her out of her limited choices, but that doesn't mean it's the best option for her out of all those more liberal women are offered. I don't think she's a child or incapable of looking after a kid, but I'm still sad. I'm sad that, at 19, she'll never even get the choice to go to university or work outside the home. Most teen mums at least get that option, whether it's at the time or later, but her life is wrapped up in her reproductive organs.

Women have been having kids young for centuries and thriving, but women then were also legally subservient to men and lacking in opportunities. I think it's less a matter of whether young women are capable of raising babies (Joy, I expect, will be an excellent and sensitive mother) and more that they (the Duggar women) are not capable of getting an education or having a career - and for a lot of people this is the news that has proven that fact and driven it home. For me it struck a nerve because she's younger than me, and I wish she could live in my shoes for a day and find out what else there is to love and explore in this world.

[JenniferJuniper]

My mother had me at 19 and then kept having them. Catholic doctors. No birth control allowed.

She's always been pretty honest that she wishes she had felt she had options.  She got married to get away from an abusive stepfather and ended up an in unhappy marriage with five kids.  All of her kids who have had kids started having them in their 30's.  I think she raised us with the notion that we should have our own lives and careers before deciding whether to marry or have children.  

If Joy stays fundie she's not likely to ever express the sort of regrets my mother has. As others have pointed out, she doesn't know any better.  Women are for makin' babies and keepin' men happy.  And of course 19/20 year old parents can be great. But that doesn't make me feel any less sad for her lack of options, and lets face it, the odds are high that one or more of these Duggar "courtship" marriages will fail due to things like incompatibility or infidelity.  One almost did already. And yes, I know there are many stories of long, happy marriages of people married young to their first loves, but I know many more that have failed. Because we do not stay the same as we were at 20.  

[Snarkle Motion]

I disagree that Joy would be the same having a kid now versus later. I expect Jinger will have a kid in the next year or so but I'm happy that she seems to be enjoying new experiences and life with her husband. I think this will make for a stronger relationship for raising kids.

Jill jumped straight into motherhood after a quick courtship and I think Jessa's has been more successful because she and Ben really had time to get to know one another and develop their relationship. 

The Bates kids like Tori and Carlin  have much longer courtships. It feels closer to dating and allowing them a healthy get to know you time. When they finally have get married and have children it feels like a healthier relationship. I know Joy knew Austin for a long time but I'm not sure she really had a strong or in depth friendship beforehand. The way they discuss it, he was friends with the family not necessarily close to Joy.