Michael and Brandon Keilen Part 3

[Seculardaisy]

1 hour ago, ColeJo said:

I know that Michael's fertility issues have been discussed ad nauseum but I really feel for her right now because two of her sisters are preggo.

At this rate she’s always going to have a few siblings expecting. There’s so many married or on their way to being married couples. It’s going to be a long road for her, I feel for her.

[JermajestyDuggar]

2 hours ago, ColeJo said:

I know that Michael's fertility issues have been discussed ad nauseum but I really feel for her right now because two of her sisters are preggo.

I just hope they are starting the adoption process since it takes awhile. They are one of the only fundies couples that I think would be decent adoptive parents. 

[BeccaGrim]

I sort of wonder if they really would adopt. Goddard was against adoption.  Something about bringing undo negative influences into the house. Jessa and Ben 'talk' about it all the time but she'll never stop getting pregnant long enough to do it.  I'd be very surprised if Michael actually did it. She may remain childless rather than pursue that route. 

[LillyP]

I think Michael would take whatever means necessary to have a baby...be it medical intervention with fertility treatments or even adoption. Sadly for her I think Brandon runs the show and he doesn't see to show much interest in doing anything outside of "God's will".

[JermajestyDuggar]

I bet Michael would be completely open to the idea of adoption. She seems like the type that would treat her adopted children the same as bio kids. I can't say the same for some other fundies....

[BullyJBG]

Gothard has spoken against adoption, but was it consistent? And I can't remember anything he may have said about infertility treatments or what a childless-not-by-choice couple can do. It seems a lot of things he said are not consistent. But, @formergothardite you're welcome to set me straight on that. There's no word on what he's doing NOW, besides hiding under the proverbial "rug" he was swept under.

  Michael did say she's open to adoption. And she has a good relationship with her 2 adopted aunts, so it seems. They can't NOT be evaluating Gothard's words on adoption against the realities of that.

  Yeah; I have to admit, when I saw that "Bates Grandbaby #8" post, I hoped it would be Michael and Brandon. And was disappointed that it wasn't.

[bananabread]

I just hope that Michael and Brandon are on the same page when it comes to adoption/medical intervention/etc, and that some sequence of events will lead to her having the family of her dreams.

I doubt Michael thinks in these terms, but it seems especially cruel that she (and/or her husband) of all fundies would experience fertility problems. Michael is in a lot of ways the perfect fundie female...she's always been so humble, so obedient, so un-superficial, so modest, so nurturing and maternal towards others. She waited patiently on God'd timing in her courtship and marriage, and was the main sister-mom in her family of 19 children. She is kind and giving, perhaps to a fault. Yet she has not been blessed with children, while virtually EVERYONE else around her seems to get pregnant effortlessly. It seems so unfair that families like Zsu's, JillRod's, and even Josh Duggar's have been "blessed" with seemingly endless babies, and Michael and Brandon remain childless. I feel so badly for her.

[Timetraveler]

57 minutes ago, bananabread said:

I just hope that Michael and Brandon are on the same page when it comes to adoption/medical intervention/etc, and that some sequence of events will lead to her having the family of her dreams.

I doubt Michael thinks in these terms, but it seems especially cruel that she (and/or her husband) of all fundies would experience fertility problems. Michael is in a lot of ways the perfect fundie female...she's always been so humble, so obedient, so un-superficial, so modest, so nurturing and maternal towards others. She waited patiently on God'd timing in her courtship and marriage, and was the main sister-mom in her family of 19 children. She is kind and giving, perhaps to a fault. Yet she has not been blessed with children, while virtually EVERYONE else around her seems to get pregnant effortlessly. It seems so unfair that families like Zsu's, JillRod's, and even Josh Duggar's have been "blessed" with seemingly endless babies, and Michael and Brandon remain childless. I feel so badly for her.

If I were her, I would be incredibly pissed at God. Not that I have any hopes of her leaving the cult. I am somehow guessing that struggles like these will have the opposite effect. 

[HermioneSparrow]

I think she said on the show if nothing happens she'll adopt a baby.

[Seculardaisy]

11 hours ago, Timetraveler said:

If I were her, I would be incredibly pissed at God. Not that I have any hopes of her leaving the cult. I am somehow guessing that struggles like these will have the opposite effect. 

She did say in her blog post about their struggles to get pregnant that she was angry with God and Brandon helped her find her way back into understanding God’s will.

I am paraphrasing, due to business at work but it was along these lines.

 

ETA:

Found it. It’s very long, but you can read it all here.

http://brandonandmichaela.com/2017/06/25/learning-to-trust/

“Over the next few weeks and months, without even realizing what was happening, my view of life began to change. I was quickly growing more and more discontented and suddenly I found myself doubting God. 
cried myself to sleep and felt like all my dreams and desires were shattered. Each night, Brandon held me close and let me cry until I had no more tears. He prayed with me and assured me that God had a plan and knew what He was doing. 

Brandon encouraged me to be honest with God and ask for His grace to trust again. Then he challenged me to find the verses in Scripture that show God’s nature”

[snickers34]

On 11/10/2017 at 7:34 AM, BeccaGrim said:

I sort of wonder if they really would adopt. Goddard was against adoption.  Something about bringing undo negative influences into the house.

Yeah for me, this whole "Gothard doesn't allow adoption so they don't either" thing has been taken too seriously with plenty of evidence to the contrary. The Duggars adopted family and Ben/Jessa want to adopt (yes, they haven't yet, but if they were against it why the heck would they talk about it constantly?). Also the Bates have adopted family members that they seem to very much love, plus I watched the recent episode where Michael & Erin talked about her infertility, and while she is seeing a fertility specialist, Erin suggested that there's always children to adopt. 

[lilith]

There are plenty of ATI families who adopt - the 5 kids 6 months family adopted 8 kids out of the foster care system, and at least initially they were adopting cause they couldn’t conceive. I’m not sure if they’re still ATI, but they were - they were even homeschooling using wisdom booklets. And other families with adopted kids have been featured on 19 Kids & Counting and shown at Big Sandy.

I think the teaching is to be cautious because the sins of the parents are visited on the children and the children may show a proclivity towards the vices of their parents. But the way it works in practice is probably that adopted ATI kids get watched super closely for signs of “sin” and are prayed over constantly as a reminder that they are extra susceptible to it.

[elliha]

I haven't read Michael's text until now and up until now I have always thought that Michael and Brandon would trust in god and then adopt if they don't get pregnant or at the very most try some less invasive procedures but after reading the text I think that they might actually try more advanced fertility options. I get a feeling that while they are not anti-adoption they might feel that having a biological child is important enough to perhaps compromise with beliefs about leaving it up to god. 

[AtlanticTug]

They could do IUIs with injectable stim drugs, you run the risk of high order multiples but they don't care about that and would probably welcome it. I don't know how they feel about masturbating to provide the sample.

IVF would be more problematic in the sense that conception is done in a petri dish. But otherwise, the basis of the opposition from the right appears to be that embryos are frozen and then discarded when not needed. Again this would not be an issue for a fundie couple who could keep going until every frozen embryo has been transferred and given a chance at life.

[Jess]

I don't think they would do IVF but maybe do it and hide it. The fundies in my family are against it even though one of cousins was so definitely an IVF baby they insist he was an honest to god miracle. Don't want to get into specifics but there is no chance based on her diagnosis she had previously shared he was conceived with her egg. The sad part is a large portion of the family believes his miracle status. You can tell who believes it and who is sane. 

I thought Gothards thing on adoptions was more about adopting out of birth order and sins of the their bio parents corrupting your bio kids. I think it would be okay since they don't have bio kids to adopt but I M no expert in his teachings.

[Granwych]

On ‎10‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 7:42 PM, screamingbuddha said:

I was kind of thinking about this for the last few days. I wonder if the choice of wig is a modesty thing, like how Hasidic women wear (often bad) wigs over their natural hair out for modesty's sake? 

Yes--how modest is it to proclaim that your hair really doesn't look like this?  After managing a wig department for 6 years, I've seen some truly horrific ones.

[meee]

On 11/14/2017 at 5:00 PM, AtlanticTug said:

IVF would be more problematic in the sense that conception is done in a petri dish. But otherwise, the basis of the opposition from the right appears to be that embryos are frozen and then discarded when not needed. Again this would not be an issue for a fundie couple who could keep going until every frozen embryo has been transferred and given a chance at life.

That's if they believe that transferring an embryo counts as giving it a chance of life regardless. I know the Andersons at least believe that any transferred embryos that don't end in live births count as murder.

 

On 11/14/2017 at 9:27 PM, Jess said:

Don't want to get into specifics but there is no chance based on her diagnosis she had previously shared he was conceived with her egg. 

One generally uses one's own eggs in IVF, though. And I would think (don't know for sure though) that egg donation would be a whole different kettle of fish in fundieland.

[JermajestyDuggar]

I have done IUI and I'm kind of unsure if they would do it. He's spilling his seed into a cup in a little room that is then later injected into his wife. Fundies seem like they are all about the act of sex in marriage being holy. I can see her trying clomid or other meds that may help but I don't know if fundies are generally ok with doing more than that. And I get the feeling they are unexplained infertility. So clomid may be pointless in that regard.

[Eternalbluepearl]

On 11/10/2017 at 8:34 AM, BeccaGrim said:

I sort of wonder if they really would adopt. Goddard was against adoption.  Something about bringing undo negative influences into the house. 

How could fundies be pro-life but against adoption? That doesn't even make sense. Also, who cares what some old guy says about adoption. I thought followers of Jesus were supposed to meet the needs of people like clothing and sheltering and whatnot. 

On 11/11/2017 at 6:17 PM, lilith said:

I think the teaching is to be cautious because the sins of the parents are visited on the children and the children may show a proclivity towards the vices of their parents.

Gosh this sin shit is ridiculous. What about fundie sinners with biological kids like Josh Duggar? Are his kids watched extra closely?

[jacduggar]

There’s other considerations with this all, though. Both adoption and fertility treatments are expensive. Judging by the fact that they aren’t really featured on BUB anymore I’m going to say that Brandon’s income is what they’re living on, does he make enough to shell out $20-30k for IVF or adoption any time soon? I can’t imagine IBLP offers their employees health insurance plans that are super pro-women’s healthcare to cover advanced fertility treatments. 

 

I don’t think they’d have any moral objections to any sort of fertility treatments, though. Especially since Michael seems to be pro-modern medicine. It’s easy enough to justify since it’s in that fundie morality grey area, and I would hope that they don’t feel negative pressure for considering it. 

[singsingsing]

I think they would definitely have moral objections to certain fertility treatments. I honestly can't see them being okay with anything that would involve the man 'spilling his seed', or creating embryos that might not survive. And I could definitely see them objecting to 'playing God', in a sense. Kelly's treatments were justified (in their minds) because she was doing it to keep an existing pregnancy viable, not to get pregnant.

[CorruptionInc.]

6 hours ago, Eternalbluepearl said:

How could fundies be pro-life but against adoption? That doesn't even make sense.

Because Fundies are walking contradictions, that's why.

[lilith]

3 hours ago, jacduggar said:

There’s other considerations with this all, though. Both adoption and fertility treatments are expensive. Judging by the fact that they aren’t really featured on BUB anymore I’m going to say that Brandon’s income is what they’re living on, does he make enough to shell out $20-30k for IVF or adoption any time soon? I can’t imagine IBLP offers their employees health insurance plans that are super pro-women’s healthcare to cover advanced fertility treatments. 

 

I don’t think they’d have any moral objections to any sort of fertility treatments, though. Especially since Michael seems to be pro-modern medicine. It’s easy enough to justify since it’s in that fundie morality grey area, and I would hope that they don’t feel negative pressure for considering it. 

It’s not a fundie grey area. They see creating embryos that won’t be implanted to be murder, the same as abortion. There are even embryo adoption “ministries” to save the poor frozen “babies”.

[Jess]

4 hours ago, jacduggar said:

I don’t think they’d have any moral objections to any sort of fertility treatments, though. Especially since Michael seems to be pro-modern medicine. It’s easy enough to justify since it’s in that fundie morality grey area, and I would hope that they don’t feel negative pressure for considering it. 

Some things like medication would be fine but other things like IVF especially are not a grey area to funndies they are a black area on par with murder. Embryos are people to them. Even if you plan to implant them all eventually freezing/unfreezing causes some to fail. That's murder to them. Lots of conservative christians have problems with it. 

I was once in a law class where we were asked that great thought scenario some of you have probably heard before. Your in a burning building and can only save either a baby, 100 frozen embryos, or a cat which do you save? A disturbing number of people argued to save the embryos and they weren't even people I would call fundie. I was the only one to argue to save the baby and some one picked the cat as long as she didn't have to tell the babies family. (I know her well and she would totally save the cat). 

[HurricaneBells]

12 minutes ago, Jess said:

A disturbing number of people argued to save the embryos and they weren't even people I would call fundie.  

This is what i am wtf'ng and haha i know some people that would probably save the cat too. There is only one way to answer that question without looking silly.....