Michael and Brandon Keilen Part 3

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

On 24/07/2017 at 11:22 AM, meee said:

I know not all fundies have the same beliefs, so I won't assume M&B think this, but I know Zsuzsanna Anderson has absolutely railed against the "evil" that is IVF.

 

Is there any such thing as a fundie IVF doctor? Might someone fertilize all the eggs retrieved and put them ALL back?  (I am obviously NOT suggesting that this is a good idea medically - one could end up with octuplets or the like.)  That would get around the problem of destroying embryos, which, yes, is pretty inevitable unless they are all of such good quality that some can be frozen.

On 24/07/2017 at 3:05 PM, front hugs > duggs said:

**Please do not judge based on my complete lack of education or knowledge on this topic**

If there are "too many" eggs to place back in, is there a way to limit the amount of eggs taken? (if that's the right word) originally?

I could maybe google this, but I'm at work and not sure if anything potentially NSFW could come up.

Haven't read ahead yet but yes you can have low dose ivf to only get a few eggs. Very religious catholic women sometimes choose this 

[melon]

Isn't the doctor Kelly Jo and Erin saw,a Christian.Dr.Vick?I think Whitney saw him,too.

 

[faraway]

I think in a situation like this their beliefs might slap in the face. If they're at a doctor/clinic and are being told that IVF is their only option (if their doctors even advise that), they don't even really have a chance to consider that. The belief that children are a direct blessing from god is literally the core of their belief system. It is god who decides how many children you have and when you have them, you just get married and wait. Gil and Kelly were just not smart enough to consider some room for error with 19 kids.

[jozina]

On 7/27/2017 at 11:52 PM, nolongerIFBx said:

Doctors have developed options for staunch Catholics who want IVF. One is the collection condom discussed above.  Another is that when a couple has as many children as they want, the remaining embryos are implanted at a time when the woman is unlikely to conceive. Thus the embryo is not destroyed, but is unlikely (but not impossible) to implant.

I would also think that it would be possible to only fertilize the eggs of the number of children you want and to freeze any remaining eggs in  case they were needed in the future, but destroying those unfertilzed eggs if they weren't needed would be fine. But Catholic, fundie, atheist, Buddhist, etc., everyone has to make the decisions that they can live with.

The Catholic Church is totally against IVF, so it'd be a staunch Catholic who was going against the church. The problem is that the child is created outside of the body and the act of sex. I know there are plenty of Catholics who do IVF, some doctors who offer those sorts of IVF treatments and I'm sure there are plenty who use that sort of mental gymnastics to get around it, but the Catholic Church is still 100% against it no matter how the sperm is collected or extra embryos are dealt with.

[speller24]

19 hours ago, melon said:

Isn't the doctor Kelly Jo and Erin saw,a Christian.Dr.Vick?I think Whitney saw him,too.

 

Yes, I believe this is his center: Nancy Vick Center for Women in Knoxville, TN.  It talks about how God builds a child for 9 months... I've never been to a doctor's office that was this free with the religious beliefs. I live in Minnesota though, so it might be different here? 

[KeshetParparNesicha]

A lot of Catholics use GIFT (gamete intra-something transfer) which fertilizes the egg inside the body so it's less unnatural. IIRC Mike Pence and his wife used this method. I doubt the Keilens would go for it, though, if they're leaving it strictly up to God.

[jacduggar]

On 8/1/2017 at 9:58 AM, speller24 said:

Yes, I believe this is his center: Nancy Vick Center for Women in Knoxville, TN.  It talks about how God builds a child for 9 months... I've never been to a doctor's office that was this free with the religious beliefs. I live in Minnesota though, so it might be different here? 

Bible Belt. Whenever we drive through the Bible Belt states, there are signs for businesses with religious/biblical quotes everywhere. We once stayed in a town outside of Nashville that was so baptist it was almost scary. 

[ladybug15]

Actually you can have mini IVF. You inject smaller amount of hormones so you get less eggs that get retrieved for IVF. Sometimes 2/3 eggs or even just one only. And in that case you are not wasting embryoes.

Nowadays 5 day transfer (embryo made it to 5 days to blastocyst) is transferred. In the past, 3 day transfer was more popular and more embryos were put in.

There is a technique GIFT , mentioned above, when the embryos are created in lab and directly transferred to the fallobian tubes, and the body serves as the incubator. In those situations they usually do transfer most of the eggs.

 

They could also freeze excess embryos for later transfer. By the way, some people for religious reasons, might transfer non viable eggs sometimes even in the wrong point of the cycle, so its their body that rejects the embryo and they are not destroying it outside.

 

In addition Catholic church promotes Naprotechnology, and they have some centers for it. There they do a thorough health evaluation mainly of females, plus do a thorough analysis of the cycle and natural family planning charting to determine possible issues - hormones imbalances etc.

 

[OhNoNike]

I have a friend who had remaining embryos as a product of IVF.  They placed the embryos for adoption through a Christian group.  Successfully resulted in a healthy pregnancy with adoptive family.  

[Casserole]

But IVF does not equal baby. You can implant as many embryos as you want (well no you can't, but hypothetically) and that does not guarantee even one child. If I implant 3 viable embryos that are growing like they should and only one makes it through to birth or all three miscarry or insert whatever scenario here, how is that not God's will at work?  That is the epitome of God's will that you can utilize any modern method you want and if that's not what you're supposed to have, then you won't.*

 

*Lapsed Catholic and I do not believe that, but if I were in their shoes, the mental gymnastics necessary to convince myself I'm still following God's will for my life seems like an easy jump. 

[faraway]

I'm actually concerned that they might try some of these methods mentioned here and twist it in some ways that "it's ok because our Christian doctor did it" or "no embryos went to waste" while still condemning mainstream fertility treatment. If they continue to struggle the question is what will prevail eventually: Their beliefs or the desire to have a child. It's an interesting situation for such a public, child-crazy fundie family to be in. 

[FakePigtails]

On 8/1/2017 at 0:34 AM, jozina said:

The Catholic Church is totally against IVF, so it'd be a staunch Catholic who was going against the church. The problem is that the child is created outside of the body and the act of sex. I know there are plenty of Catholics who do IVF, some doctors who offer those sorts of IVF treatments and I'm sure there are plenty who use that sort of mental gymnastics to get around it, but the Catholic Church is still 100% against it no matter how the sperm is collected or extra embryos are dealt with.

Yep, no IVF, no IUI, nothing that results in conception without PIV sex. The big thing I see in Catholic circles is Napro but it has its own issues: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/07/inside-the-strange-heartbreaking-relentless-quest-for-a-natural-fertility-treatment/

Of course, if, like others have mentioned, if they believe that any medical intervention is an attempt to override God's will, the methods don't matter.

[OhNoNike]

On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 9:09 PM, Casserole said:

But IVF does not equal baby. You can implant as many embryos as you want (well no you can't, but hypothetically) and that does not guarantee even one child. If I implant 3 viable embryos that are growing like they should and only one makes it through to birth or all three miscarry or insert whatever scenario here, how is that not God's will at work?  That is the epitome of God's will that you can utilize any modern method you want and if that's not what you're supposed to have, then you won't.*

 

*Lapsed Catholic and I do not believe that, but if I were in their shoes, the mental gymnastics necessary to convince myself I'm still following God's will for my life seems like an easy jump. 

Yup.  I find religious hypocrisies interesting.  (Not ALL things are hypocritical, mind... don't want to offend anyone at all - I'm a people watcher; I find people in general interesting.  We do talk about every religion we can in my house with my kids so they understand what people believe and why.  I just don't happen to believe in any myself.)

And maybe it would be like "we didn't create this baby, but it's here now and we respect life and don't want it destroyed".  I agree with you - but I also think this gets into "when does life start" argument.

Personally, though, I think it's awesome we have the option to put them up for adoption... or destroy them... or donate to science... or keep them on ice and use them later, or whatever... That there are options to choose from.   (I mean... it's currently 6:10 AM ET on 8/4.  Who knows when that may change).

[seraaa]

I know nothing about adoption or fostering, but I imagine it's quite a long process. I wonder if that's an option they're looking at.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

On 8/4/2017 at 0:49 PM, seraaa said:

I know nothing about adoption or fostering, but I imagine it's quite a long process. I wonder if that's an option they're looking at.

Brandon works for IBLP and Gothard is against adoption, so that might not be an option for them. However, the Duggars have made many pro-adoption statements, so it's not necessarily forbidden by the cult.

[justmy2cents]

1 hour ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

Brandon works for IBLP and Gothard is against adoption, so that might not be an option for them. 

Gothard is no longer there so his teachings may no longer carry the same weight. Micheal has two adopted aunts which might make them more open to adoption. 

[ladybug15]

On 8/2/2017 at 9:09 PM, Casserole said:

But IVF does not equal baby. You can implant as many embryos as you want (well no you can't, but hypothetically) and that does not guarantee even one child. If I implant 3 viable embryos that are growing like they should and only one makes it through to birth or all three miscarry or insert whatever scenario here, how is that not God's will at work?  That is the epitome of God's will that you can utilize any modern method you want and if that's not what you're supposed to have, then you won't.*

 

*Lapsed Catholic and I do not believe that, but if I were in their shoes, the mental gymnastics necessary to convince myself I'm still following God's will for my life seems like an easy jump. 

This. After our IVF we had 7 viable embryos. We transferred one, got pregnant, I lost it the first week. WE did another transfer, 2 this time. Again got pregnant and lost it the second week. Few months later we did the third transfer and both took, resulting in our twin boys. 

 

We are or were practicing R. Catholic, this is mainly the only thing we did against the church. We do not go to communion, nor confession (I do not regret my sin so it would not be truthful) but we do go to church, and celebrate all holidays. But the church is part of our upbringing and culture (Polish). Our sons are baptized and will be raised in the faith. However, we will let them make their own decisions later in life.

What we are doing is that we refuse to destroy the remaining 2 embryos so we will transfer them. IF that results in 4 kids let it be, but we are more than aware that it could be just our twins. I refuse to destroy the 2 frosties that I consider my children that I fought really hard to have. I refuse to do more IVF, but mostly on the emotional impact it had on my body. 

I do not know if I mentioned it here, but one of the main reasons we turned to IVF is that I have a sperm allergy. No physical demonstration, but my body kills sperm. So I am build in bc in my body. I yet to figure out how the religious figures can explain that.

 I often struggle with the lack of compassion from the church for the infertile, and for those who miscarried - especially on days such as Mother or Father's day. Celebrate mothers, but perhaps mention that you are praying for them as well. 

[Snarkle Motion]

On 8/2/2017 at 8:09 PM, Casserole said:

But IVF does not equal baby. You can implant as many embryos as you want (well no you can't, but hypothetically) and that does not guarantee even one child. If I implant 3 viable embryos that are growing like they should and only one makes it through to birth or all three miscarry or insert whatever scenario here, how is that not God's will at work?  That is the epitome of God's will that you can utilize any modern method you want and if that's not what you're supposed to have, then you won't.*

 

*Lapsed Catholic and I do not believe that, but if I were in their shoes, the mental gymnastics necessary to convince myself I'm still following God's will for my life seems like an easy jump. 

While I completely agree with you, I think they believe starts at conception. Implanting embryos that may not take is essentially manslaughter. Again, I completely disagree but that's the logic if I understand their reasoning.

[SassyPants]

In very basic terms, IMHO, I do not believe the Duggars or Bates worship a loving, accepting, forgiving God. Their God seems to evoke fear and anger. I could be wrong, but that's the impression I get. I want nothing to do with that kind of God.

What a mind screw.

[Casserole]

14 hours ago, Snarkle Motion said:

While I completely agree with you, I think they believe starts at conception. Implanting embryos that may not take is essentially manslaughter. Again, I completely disagree but that's the logic if I understand their reasoning.

Then why isn't a miscarriage manslaughter? Ew, I feel yucky even typing that. But every time you have sex and waste all that sperm and don't make a baby is manslaughter by that logic. Ugh, there is no logic. Of course, I was not raised in a strict religious home, though, so I do feel for people who feel conflicted and as though they have to "sin" to get the child they always wanted. 

[Snarkle Motion]

4 hours ago, Casserole said:

Then why isn't a miscarriage manslaughter? Ew, I feel yucky even typing that. But every time you have sex and waste all that sperm and don't make a baby is manslaughter by that logic. Ugh, there is no logic. Of course, I was not raised in a strict religious home, though, so I do feel for people who feel conflicted and as though they have to "sin" to get the child they always wanted. 

There is a push by evangelicals to conduct investigations and prosecute miscarriage. 

[ladybug15]

4 hours ago, Casserole said:

Then why isn't a miscarriage manslaughter? Ew, I feel yucky even typing that. But every time you have sex and waste all that sperm and don't make a baby is manslaughter by that logic. Ugh, there is no logic. Of course, I was not raised in a strict religious home, though, so I do feel for people who feel conflicted and as though they have to "sin" to get the child they always wanted. 

there are countries that actually imprison women for miscarriage, El Salvador is one of those I believe. Its usually poor women, who cannot defend themselves. 

[OyToTheVey]

3 hours ago, ladybug15 said:

there are countries that actually imprison women for miscarriage, El Salvador is one of those I believe. Its usually poor women, who cannot defend themselves. 

There was one in the news a few weeks ago. She got like 20 year sentence for a miscarriage. 

[justoneoftwo]

9 hours ago, Casserole said:

Then why isn't a miscarriage manslaughter? Ew, I feel yucky even typing that. But every time you have sex and waste all that sperm and don't make a baby is manslaughter by that logic. Ugh, there is no logic. Of course, I was not raised in a strict religious home, though, so I do feel for people who feel conflicted and as though they have to "sin" to get the child they always wanted. 

From a legal perspective a miscarriage is usually not caused by a person's actions, so could usually not be a crime.  You need to actually do the act which causes the death (pull the trigger, push a person, basically physically do something).  Most miscarriages are due to fetal non viability (I think) so no other person did any action which caused it.  

To be fair, this requirement seems to be under attack in several places so it may not remain.

[Jess]

I think part of the problem fundies have with IVF is even if you plan to eventually use all the embryos you can't guarentee it. Let's say you have five embryos you can only implant two. Three are left you plan to use, but maybe you have a hysterectomy during first pregnancy. Or maybe your in a car accident and pass away. What happens then? Personally I don't think embryos are people, but for those that do it's a big deal that all those people are sitting in storage or worse disposed of. One of my relatives posts a ton of embryo adoption propaganda I am sure if she could afford it she would be trying to do that...