Counting On: Season Four

[Freejin]

Visiting here from my regular boards. Hi!

I have a question for those who may have experience with fundie fams. Many fundie families seem

to have trouble keeping their kids in the Right Version of Christianity but others seem to have a better track record. What do you think it is about the duggars and bates that allowed them to keep their kids fundie for the most part? (They all got married courtship style, etc.)

[Lurky]

23 minutes ago, Freejin said:

What do you think it is about the duggars and bates that allowed them to keep their kids fundie for the most part? (They all got married courtship style, etc.)

I think the TV contracts have a lot to do with it, personally, in that they have the 'carrot' of money, and exposure for those kids that enjoy it - and the 'stick' of "we're public figures/our families are Missionaries, so if you don't do it our way, the consequences will be really bad". 

For the Duggars, the choices are that if they follow the right way - or at least appear to - they'll get a house to live in, and a job etc etc, while if they go off brand, they risk being fully cast out, and they're completely unequipped to do anything else.  Where would they even go, when all their friends are as steeped in the kool aid as they are?  How could they get a job when they've been brought up on Duggar time, and seemingly have no qualifications?

I do think with the Bates, who are better at PR, it's all about show - eg we know Zach & Whitney dated, not courted, and I suspect the framing of "getting to know you"-courting-engagement is more for show with them too.  They also have kids doing definitely secular jobs, so some of them ARE moving away from Fundy (albeit baby steps) just off-screen.  The Bates are in that perfect position of being small-scale stars and reaping the rewards, but without the scrutiny that the Duggars get.

I do think it's telling that in both families, almost all the young women of marriageable age have all married, some very young, and I suspect there's a lot about getting to have some freedom.  The young men have more freedom, and also more advantages (although the Fundy patriarchy hurts men too) - but also, the Duggar young men are in a tough position of that no-win situation - not allowed to get an education/a job outside the home, so can't support a wife and family, and expected to get married and go full-Quiverfull ASAP. 

And while the daughters can claim "My headship prayed about it, and doesn't want me to/likes me to..." to justify everything they want, from (ZOMG) trousers to not having eleventy kids, the responsibility is on the young men to keep pleasing their parents.

[OyToTheVey]

13 hours ago, Gillyweed said:

I don't know if you mean the state or city (or both), but my friend goes to school in Yonkers and claims that there are tons of bars in the city that don't card. They're probably not as nice, and infested with college and high school students, but they do exist. 

I'm in the city but I know tons of friends in Yonkers. We get carded all the time when we go to bars. 

[Freejin]

11 hours ago, Lurky said:

I think the TV contracts have a lot to do with it, personally, in that they have the 'carrot' of money, and exposure for those kids that enjoy it - and the 'stick' of "we're public figures/our families are Missionaries, so if you don't do it our way, the consequences will be really bad".

That's a really good analysis. Makes a lot of sense. Are there less public fundie families that have had good retention rates, so to speak? I know many of the families we discuss - Kellers, Shraders - have lost more than a couple of kids to the world. Curious if it's just the fame. 

[Lurky]

2 hours ago, Freejin said:

Are there less public fundie families that have had good retention rates, so to speak? I know many of the families we discuss - Kellers, Shraders - have lost more than a couple of kids to the world. Curious if it's just the fame. 

There are families like the S'Mortons, who don't seem to have lost anyone yet (though Cap'n Smith would say he'd lost ALL his older daughters, as they're aligned with Katie S'Morton, rather than Brett Alan Smith, who's in jail awaiting trial for child sexual assault).  Then the Bontragers/Bowerseseses/Niednagels don't seem to have lost any - and the Long Family (ugh ugh ugh) are also pretty solid (though their kids are young, still).  I guess it's hard to tell, though, because if any of the couples in those families have gone Conservative Christian instead of Fundy, they aren't going to publicise it, so it's hard to tell when they don't go full schism, Jeub/Penington/Keller style.

Then, there are whole families who left/got less Fundy - Elizabeth whatsit, who had the lucky escape from Maxhell, eg, and Krystina of the Keepsakes etc.

It'll be the next 10 years that interest me, as the third generations of Shraders and Rodrigueses, and the younger Duggars, Bates, Maxwells, and the Anderson/Shupes, grow up, because we just can't tell.  It's going to be *fascinating*!

[Freejin]

4 hours ago, Lurky said:

 

It'll be the next 10 years that interest me, as the third generations of Shraders and Rodrigueses, and the younger Duggars, Bates, Maxwells, and the Anderson/Shupes, grow up, because we just can't tell.  It's going to be *fascinating*!

Yes for sure.  I'm also waiting for a kid to come out as gay.  Statistically speaking that would have to happen sometime.  Has it happened yet?

[Trynn]

Not that we know of, and speculation is against the rules here. Partly because we know certain fundies read here and we don't want anyone's lives being ruined by being sent to conversion therapy or worse.  I also think it's tacky to speculate on the sexuality of a minor.

 

[Freejin]

17 minutes ago, Trynn said:

Not that we know of, and speculation is against the rules here. Partly because we know certain fundies read here and we don't want anyone's lives being ruined by being sent to conversion therapy or worse.  I also think it's tacky to speculate on the sexuality of a minor.

Oh gosh. No speculation. That would be terrible. I was thinking someday someone would come out and share their own story. 

[VelociRapture]

@Trynn it's generally advised that posts like that not be quoted in full. Makes it easier on Admins when they remove the original post.

I think it's also advised that the post be reported rather than responded to for the same reason.

[Freejin]

2 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

@Trynn it's generally advised that posts like that not be quoted in full. Makes it easier on Admins when they remove the original post.

I think it's also advised that the post be reported rather than responded to for the same reason.

I really apologize. I was not trying to create a problem. I understand now why this is dangerous territory. Please delete my post. Thank you both. 

[Bethella]

@Freejin While speculation is against the rules, there have actually been two cases: Mariah Brown (from Sister Wives) came out as gay and Cynthia Jeub came out as bisexual (she seems to currently be in a relationship with a man).

[Freejin]

That's right. I did hear about Mariah. I'm not familiar with the other person.  

[JMO]

@Freejin the Jeubs are an interesting family. There are some threads on here  mostly dealing with the older girls leaving/getting made to leave. One of the girls/women has an account as well I believe. They were featured years ago on Kids By the Dozen. I think there are 15 or 16 kids? The dad is a JA and is not the biological father to the 2 oldest. On the show they bragged about making all the kids celebrate their birthday at the same time on one day every year.  To save money and effort. They are friendly with the Duggars and have been to at least a couple of the weddings. We had pics of them at the private reception at the house after I believe Jill's wedding. Dad used to run a debate program but I'm not sure how that's going.  

[catlady]

the Jeub dad is also the guy who bragged about getting free lunch for his kids at Sam's Club by having them hit up all the free sample stations; he called it "gleaning."  their cookbook series, Love in the Kitchen, features some nasty greasy over-processed fare that makes chickenetti look palatable; they have youtube videos of some recipes.  i believe one of their breakfast recipes called for one dozen eggs to feed 17 people.

[Four is Enough]

56 minutes ago, catlady said:

the Jeub <snip>  i believe one of their breakfast recipes called for one dozen eggs to feed 17 people.

OMG, I've used a dozen eggs to feed SIX of us, AND made bacon, sausage, pancakes! Lord love a duck.

[Lurky]

The Jeubs also walked back from Fundydom - their oldest 2 daughters were cast out, basically, and Cynthia blogged about it all really eloquently, especially about the physical and financial abuse. 

The father was very, very smug about his homeschooling debate project, and Cynthia leaving knocked them for a loop - and they enrolled a ton of the remaining kids into a charter school (Cynthia said this would mean they had to be fed, clothed, and people would hopefully spot signs of abuse if they were there.)

I recommend the threads - and I hope the escapees are well and happy

[Cleopatra7]

On 6/7/2017 at 3:26 AM, Freejin said:

Ihave a question for those who may have experience with fundie fams. Many fundie families seem

to have trouble keeping their kids in the Right Version of Christianity but others seem to have a better track record. What do you think it is about the duggars and bates that allowed them to keep their kids fundie for the most part? (They all got married courtship style, etc.)

Based on what I've read elsewhere, people who have been members of ATI fall into two camps; true believers, like the Duggars, and families who found Gothardite legalism so punishing that they couldn't take it anymore. ATI puts a lot of demands on parents as well as children, and most of the families burnt out, because Gothard's principles are just not sustainable when applied to real life. Those who have stuck with it are so accustomed to Gothard's legalistic dictates that it doesn't seem strange or burdensome to them. Because JB and Michelle are all in, they present a united front on what constitutes "correct Christianity." The ATI world is probably also the only place where the Duggars will be unconditionally accepted after the Joshgates and that is probably very comforting for the J'kids, especially if some of the older ones have some idea about how negatively their family is viewed now.

The Duggars also lead a very comfortable life compared to other ATI families, although I question how long it can last with the number of dependents multiplying and nobody working a conventional job. The J'kids probably think that their godliness is being rewarded by enjoying material blessings, which gives them no reason to question their lifestyle. When the gravy train finally runs out of steam and all of these poorly educated kidults and their quivers are left to fend for themselves, maybe they'll start to question things.

[Nikedagain?]

23 hours ago, Freejin said:

Yes for sure.  I'm also waiting for a kid to come out as gay.  Statistically speaking that would have to happen sometime.  Has it happened yet?

ughhh 

I am wayyy more interested to hear that one of Erica Shupe's girls goes rogue, trashes the house and slaps Erica across the face. 

[GeoBQn]

16 hours ago, Lurky said:

The Jeubs also walked back from Fundydom - their oldest 2 daughters were cast out, basically, and Cynthia blogged about it all really eloquently, especially about the physical and financial abuse. 

The father was very, very smug about his homeschooling debate project, and Cynthia leaving knocked them for a loop - and they enrolled a ton of the remaining kids into a charter school (Cynthia said this would mean they had to be fed, clothed, and people would hopefully spot signs of abuse if they were there.)

I recommend the threads - and I hope the escapees are well and happy

And when Cynthia wrote about the abuse, the family put out a podcast where they confirmed all of it--and then mocked her for being too weak to handle the abuse.

[nastyhobbitses]

10 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

The Duggars also lead a very comfortable life compared to other ATI families, although I question how long it can last with the number of dependents multiplying and nobody working a conventional job. The J'kids probably think that their godliness is being rewarded by enjoying material blessings, which gives them no reason to question their lifestyle. When the gravy train finally runs out of steam and all of these poorly educated kidults and their quivers are left to fend for themselves, maybe they'll start to question things.

It kind of reminds me of China in a weird way. I think, and more than a few policy wonks think, that China's government has been able to keep trucking the way it has been because of how good the economy has been since the 1980s; there's been a very, very dramatic reduction in the number of people living in poverty (of course, horrible inequality still exists, but most people are far better off now than they were before...though don't get sick because you're SOL unless you can pay up), and the standard of living has improved dramatically. I got the sense when I lived there that a lot of people, even if they don't like censorship, want more freedom, and know what the rest of the world is like, don't want to lose the good life they now live. Many people live lives their grandparents and parents could only dream of. Why give that up? I think it's the same with the Duggars. They want for nothing, and don't want to lose that. Leaving or rebelling could mean sacrificing more than they're willing to sacrifice. I don't think change will happen in China or Duggarland until people lose their comforts and security, and have nothing left to lose.

[nickelodeon]

4 hours ago, GeoBQn said:

And when Cynthia wrote about the abuse, the family put out a podcast where they confirmed all of it--and then mocked her for being too weak to handle the abuse.

That was sick, lining her little siblings up to scoff about how Cynthia was "being dramatic" and "exaggerating" and "being beaten with a belt every day isn't THAT big a deal"

[cascarones]

This is speculation on my part on the involvement of the Vuolos or Duggars, but flying into San Antonio yesterday my flight was full of people going for a mission trip for GCC (Jeremy's church) and talking about wanting to meet Jinger or discussing the Duggars like they knew them personally. No clue if any of the family is involved or if it will be filmed, GCC is a pretty big church with quite a few locations. 

Fun fact: if you've got very long hair (almost Locks of Love chop time!) and like to fly comfortably in a long dress and cardigan, you are immediately assumed to be a part of the group and in the free for all Southwest boarding you get interesting seat companions. 

[SapphireSlytherin]

8 minutes ago, cascarones said:

(almost Locks of Love chop time!)

Please read up on LoL hair donations and consider donating to Pantene Great Lengths instead.

https://pantene.com/en-us/experience-main-section2/beautiful-lengths

[cascarones]

@SapphireSlytherin They both use the same wigmaker, which is where some of the hair is culled out and sold to keep manufacturing costs down and the source for where "Locks of Love" sells hair confusion comes from. Neither are connected to a for profit wig maker anymore.  Did a big ole' project on it in grad school two years ago, including talking to both charities extensively for my Social Good Business Operations class. St. Baldrick's is a good one as well.

I prefer Locks of Love because the wigs are custom made for each kid over just picked and they accept dyed/ permed hair. Pantene Beautiful Lengths, while they do some wig making is more associated with synthetic wigs and was designed and conceived as a marketing vehicle for Pantene, which is why they aren't a separate nonprofit.  Plus, on the off chance my hair can't be used for a wig I'd much rather it be sold to keep the charity up and running, rather than just be thrown in the trash and end up in a landfill. Each to their own!

Wonder if any of the Duggar girls ever donate their hair? Theirs is long enough to still keep it below the shoulders after length requirements.

[SuhrEnity]

http://www.inquisitr.com/4278011/jinger-duggar-and-jill-duggar-is-there-bad-blood-between-the-two-sisters/?utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A+Trending+Content&utm_content=59395d1204d3011662520d53&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook

Hilarious. FYI I;m sure we started talking about the might be "feud" before Pickles did.