Jinger and Jeremy: Life with the Soccer Preacher Man

[2manyKidzzz]

Religion is just riveting, isn't it? I too hope Jinger is happy......and that she doesn't "hurt" anyone in her ministries. 

I also wonder if Jill and Jessa are thinking down the road of a house FULL of babies and littles and what it will be like for them. 

[prayawaythefundie]

1 hour ago, singsingsing said:

My friend, you can talk about absolutely anything you want. You can make a statement, I can disagree with it. Then you can disagree with me. Then someone else can come in and say, "Actually, you're both wrong." That's the beauty of a discussion forum!

I had no idea we were friends.

[MsSaylor]

I agree that its very possible too see and agree with both sides of this issue. Its very complex and we are weirdos who for whatever reason are incredibly invested in their lives.  Many of us see the adult children who were raised in this cult as both victims and prepetrators, especially in regards to the young women in leans more toward victim for me. I am discouaraged that they all seem to be continuing the core beliefs they were raised with but also hopeful when I see a loosening of some of the rigidity. This forum is called freejinger not hate jinger or condemn jinger. To me that speaks to the sentiment that we are rooting for them, that we care about them leading full lives and having as much independence as they can. I hate their beliefs, I hate their lifestyle, I hate their political aspirations. I think its only natural to see hints of any of them opening their minds and experiencing and choosing things contrary to their upbringing as positive and hopeful. May the cult weaken and erode with each generation. 

[Jinder Roles]

OMG Jeremy did an interview about evangelism with Ray "Banana Man" Comfort. For me, Ray is an example of how not to evangelize (to me personally). He can be extremely condescending, purposefully thick and loves to do these linguistic tricks to make his point. Here it is folks..

 

Edited to say Ray seems more normal and rational in this video...just not a fan of his 'style'.

[singsingsing]

This forum also exists to discuss the damage caused by fundamentalism. I don't hate any of these people. I've been following them for so long that I am invested in their lives. I am rooting for them. I'm even fond of some of them.

But when I see people singing Jeremy's praises and not just hoping but actually believing that he is Jinger's ticket out of fundietown, I do get a bit frustrated. Trust me, I am the first one to acknowledge that these people are nuanced, complicated, and have their good points, some much more so than others. There's a lot of fantasy flying around about Jeremy in particular right now, though. The reality is that he is a fundie. He wasn't pretending to be one to trick Jim Bob, just like Derick wasn't.

[nokidsmom]

I completely understand that many of us here, myself included, would like to see the adult children overcome their restricted and abusive upbringing.  To find their way out of the darkness into the light so to speak.   But sometimes because of that, when something occurs in these people's lives that is "freedom", as defined in their world such as marriage, I think we tend to see what we want to see.

I know I have been guilty of that, I thought that Derick might turn out to be a  "normalizing" factor for Jill.  Not that he married her to "free" her, but that she might have a chance by living with him to see what a different, less restrictive life looks like.   But it is turning out that Derick is completely subsumed into the Duggar machine.    Between JB's "vetting" and Jill's complete inability to cope with just about anything, I can see now that he really had no chance.  

JB is going to make sure his daughters marry the right type of guy, someone he thoroughly vets with a 50 page questionnaire.  There's serious questions of how prepared the daughters are for any sort of independent life, so far 3 of the 4 married kids are relying on their parents materially, emotionally or both.  I don't think we want to entertain that perhaps some of these adult children are not just hobbled by the parents while living under their roof, they might just be hobbled for life regardless of what level of "freedom" they attain. 

[Pukingpearl]

12 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

This forum also exists to discuss the damage caused by fundamentalism. I don't hate any of these people. I've been following them for so long that I am invested in their lives. I am rooting for them. I'm even fond of some of them.

But when I see people singing Jeremy's praises and not just hoping but actually believing that he is Jinger's ticket out of fundietown, I do get a bit frustrated. Trust me, I am the first one to acknowledge that these people are nuanced, complicated, and have their good points, some much more so than others. There's a lot of fantasy flying around about Jeremy in particular right now, though. The reality is that he is a fundie. He wasn't pretending to be one to trick Jim Bob, just like Derick wasn't.

I agree with you about Jeremy. I guess I'm just hopeful in Jinger herself because she immediately rejected some of her parents' beliefs once she got removed from them, even if they're small. It gives me just a kernel of hope that she can say "they were wrong about sleeves and eye rolls; I wonder what else they were wrong about?" 

But yeah the example of Jill and Derrick doesn't give one much hope. At all. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

4 hours ago, eveandadam said:

There are two levels of concern, here. The cult and its political goals in general and the people that are behind the cult, individuals who are very restricted and brainwashed, even more so if they are female. And I share your concern for the political aims of this cult and its leaders as well as its "subleaders" like Gil Bates, JB, Dr. Paine... . Jinger, as a young , shy female in the cult has done the best of her very narrow corridor of decision making and managed to come out happy. She has made the best of her restricted situation. Of course she will do more damage to the right of minorities by telling gay people the "lifestyle" is a sin, which will be on a very low level of influence if you look at the cult in general.

Hate to tell you but their political aspirations have won, they have total control of our country now and we are all fucked. The system is rigged, they've rigged it so no matter what they do they win.  Until the progressives/liberals are willing to to do what needs to be done these assholes will stay in power, and we will lose more and more rights every day, but we are all too busy tweeting and signing petitions and pointing fingers at each other to focus on the real problems here so 

[Kira]

We said all of these things about Jessa and Jill. I remember lots of talk about Jessa's wardrobe shortly after she married Ben. We thought the Dillards and Seewalds looked happy-until they announced pregnancies. We will turn on The Vuolos when they do the same. 

We think the other couples are unhappy because they aren't living they way we want them to. I had to laugh when some people were surprised that Jill and Derick looked happy and in love in the background of a recent photo. Why was that surprising? What makes us think Jessa and Ben hate each other? If Jinger announces a pregnancy tomorrow would you change your mind about her and Jeremy's happiness?

Also:

1. Not all fundies are the same should not be breaking news on FJ.

2. Many of the married fundie kids do things differently than their parents, including Duggars.

3. I've learned to not be optimistic about fundies. Some of the kids who've left the cults are still very very conservative and bigoted .

4. I find FJ optimism weird. We cling to the strangest things. We also sound like we know 100% what they want.

[choralcrusader8613]

8 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

But when I see people singing Jeremy's praises and not just hoping but actually believing that he is Jinger's ticket out of fundietown, I do get a bit frustrated. Trust me, I am the first one to acknowledge that these people are nuanced, complicated, and have their good points, some much more so than others. There's a lot of fantasy flying around about Jeremy in particular right now, though. The reality is that he is a fundie. He wasn't pretending to be one to trick Jim Bob, just like Derick wasn't.

This, especially the bolded. Also, Jim Bob probably isn't so stupid that he would think nobody would ever trick him out of a daughter. He's done some stupid things, but I don't think many people are that good as con artists.

1 minute ago, Kira said:

4. I find FJ optimism weird. We cling to the strangest things. We also sound like we know 100% what they want.

For all we know, all the girls want the fundie life (with more or less restrictions within that). None of them have really lived any differently as of yet, or said that they want to live much differently from their parents.

[nokidsmom]

Regarding anyone attempting to trick JB I think would take an extremely skilled con artist to accomplish it.   While JB can come off as an idiot many times, I think when it comes to doing business, he looks like he can be pretty smart and savvy.  He's going about vetting suitors the same way and I don't think very much can get past him.  To be fair, he's probably had to deal with all sorts of guys approaching him about a daughter, we know he's dealt with his share of fanboys.  He can probably sniff out someone "faking" it miles away.  

[Denim Jumper]

5 hours ago, singsingsing said:

Well, we can fantasize about all sorts of things - if they're using birth control, if Jinger goes to college, if Jeremy decides, "Fuck it, you know what, I'm actually a liberal Christian now and I'm going to go fight for gay rights" - that would all be great. And there's exactly zero evidence that any of it is happening or is going to happen.

Yeah, I definitely need that reality check. Jeremy reminds me of my husband, with the swarthy Mediterranean pastor thing going on and the outgoing personality, so it's easy to get sidetracked from what these people preach.

My husband was once a pastor at a conservative, fundie-lite baptist church, but is now a pastor in one of the most liberal, gay-friendly denominations. So it does happen, but I think the odds are probably very slim that same thing will happen with Jeremy, because has embraced the lifestyle in a way my husband never did.,

[nst]

5 hours ago, eveandadam said:

There are two levels of concern, here. The cult and its political goals in general and the people that are behind the cult, individuals who are very restricted and brainwashed, even more so if they are female. And I share your concern for the political aims of this cult and its leaders as well as its "subleaders" like Gil Bates, JB, Dr. Paine... . Jinger, as a young , shy female in the cult has done the best of her very narrow corridor of decision making and managed to come out happy. She has made the best of her restricted situation. Of course she will do more damage to the right of minorities by telling gay people the "lifestyle" is a sin, which will be on a very low level of influence if you look at the cult in general.

I have no doubt Jinger is ingrained in the cult. It's all she has ever known.  Do I care about the politics - to a degree - i just don't know everything  (because it must be so deep and hard core -  do I care about her cult in that sense that cults are horrific and ingrained - yes.  Just because the girls have been successfully in "JB"s life" married off to increase the cult and views doesn't make any of these people even remotely normal despite their best efforts.  They are a brand, a cult, a character of who are they. 

Jinge will spout give her time. In the meantime it's a cult which they can try and hide behind but it will come out 

 

3 hours ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

Religion is just riveting, isn't it? I too hope Jinger is happy......and that she doesn't "hurt" anyone in her ministries. 

I also wonder if Jill and Jessa are thinking down the road of a house FULL of babies and littles and what it will be like for them. 

Jessa needs to move soon then if she plans on getting pregnant in June.  As for Jill she I am sure is praying for the bacteria is growing in her tub. 

[QuiverDance]

On 2/25/2017 at 6:11 PM, calimojo said:

Please, dear God,  can a mod move the never ending period talk, tampons vs. pads etc to its own page?  Obviously it is a topic that many want to talk about, so give it its own thread and get it out of here. 

 

I'm kind of with you on this.  I don't get all the downvotes.  Obviously it is something women need/like to discuss and share information about, and that isn't to be discouraged, but I haven't had a period in seven years and could not give one single fuck about reading about them.  LOL. 

[singsingsing]

13 minutes ago, QuiverDance said:

I'm kind of with you on this.  I don't get all the downvotes.  Obviously it is something women need/like to discuss and share information about, and that isn't to be discouraged, but I haven't had a period in seven years and could not give one single fuck about reading about them.  LOL. 

Solution: skim past it. Thread drift happens and it's just going to keep happening.

[QuiverDance]

On 2/25/2017 at 6:11 PM, calimojo said:

9 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Solution: skim past it. Thread drift happens and it's just going to keep happening.

Who said I'm not?  I just read through five pages in so many minutes, most of which consisted of you arguing with other members.  No need to get your knickers in a knot.  Apologies, BTW, I had not read the mod comment when I originally posted.  

 

 

 

[SamiKatz]

I think that statistically, one of the Duggar kids is bound to leave the restrictions of the cult they have been raised in, but that will only happen when they are in a place where they are actually exposed to other lifestyles/information.  

Who knows what is up with Anna/Josh?  Totally off the radar and probably unlikely.

Jill and Derick seem entrenched it in (and trying to convert other people to the lifestyle), and I think Jessa and Ben seem to be as well (although Ben does seem to have interests outside of that narrow scope).

Jinger, being so far away physically from her family and seemingly not involved directly in Gothardism, seems to have a better chance than either of the rest of the kids to break free, at least at this point in time.

Time will tell, I guess.

 

[Jiraffe]

I don't think that any of the existing spouses are anyone's ticket out. It would be wonderful, but they all have some variation on the same terrible beliefs. 

I just keep thinking how much the cult has failed these kids. I have zero sympathy for JB and Michelle, or Gil and Kelly Bates for that matter, they made their bed and they can lie in it. 

But I feel like born under different circumstances, Jinger could be something else entirely. An actor with those expressions, a photographer, something. I dunno if Jeremy was much good at soccer, but maybe he'd be a sportscaster. Maybe Jill would be a real midwife or nurse, or Jessa could be a super type A CEO of something. For that matter, I even feel bad for Lawson Bates, because I find he sounds better singing other people's (secular) songs and he's limited by fundyness.

As it stands, they were all born into shitty circumstances, brought up with shitty beliefs that hurt other people, not just themselves, and seem to share them. And that's just plain sad, to me. If someone ever does break free it would be great! But I don't think we've seen strong signs of that from any of them yet. Especially Jeremy, he was out in the world and chose to stick with this fundy life, I feel like even MORE fundy than he was raised. I just think it's a shame.

[mizandry]

Yeah, of all the married Duggar daughters thus far, I see the most potential in Jinger living a life that somewhat resembles authentic 'wordliness,' but I don't think that's going to come at the expense of Jeremy's acquired obsession with being fundie -- or Jinger's, possibly, and definitely not her massive family and their reality TV show. 

She'll still be expected to keep in line and do Jeremy's bidding (and that will come at the expense of her and most especially, the community around them), but it surprised me nonetheless to see her making jokes about his driving and criticizing his laughter over being scared ("It's not funny to me to be honest"), if only because I did not expect that to be a part of their post-wedding dynamic. I think I kind of assumed that her 'submission' to him would also mean less of this and more meekness (since Jeremy cited that as part of his attraction to her... maybe it's just what JimBob demands of potential in-laws, that they use at least three of the ATI-provided 'character qualities' to describe his daughters, as they spent their lack of an education studying to exhibit those very qualities?) - so while it's not a sign of her breaking free by any stretch, it does show me that Jinger may very well be capable of sticking up for herself later on or will at least try if/when Jeremy starts being a shitbag to her, that she's not entirely willing to blame herself for everything like she's shown an inclination to in past THs. At the very least, she's getting that practice of assertion in, so I can do less concern trolling about her and more snark on their collective shittiness. woo!

[TeamDefraudinSquad]

I imagine after growing up with Jim-Boob and Meeshelle, being allowed to occasionally buy/wear a skirt that goes down to your (*GASP*) mid-thigh once in awhile instead of a long skirt, and listening to a Flame download from itunes is all the "freedom" Jinger, Jessa, or any of the Duggar girls could ever want, sadly. I don't take Jinger and Jeremy's stylish presentation, or Jessa and Ben's, as an indication that they are becoming less fundie. They probably don't feel like they're missing out on anything except burning in hell with us "heathens." In fact, even if they came right out and said, "We are on birth control" it wouldn't convince me they were becoming less fundie. 

This is anecdotal, but I used to work with a young, newly married couple who both went to a huge evangelical megachurch, and they were not opposed to bc as long as it was used for sex with your spouse, and not premarital sex. They dressed stylishly too, but the husband still made his wife do all of the cooking, cleaning, grocery shopping, and other "womanly" stuff, even though she had a bad gluten allergy and got sick a lot from it. He was also only "letting" her have a job because they were dirt poor, and needed her to work (this was when I worked retail.)  Dressing stylishly, allowing the congregants to listen to Christian Rap/Rock music like Flame, Kings of Leon, Switchfoot, etc., and having one of those pintrest-y looking coffee shops in the mega church lobbies (except with all proceeds going to fund "oversea missions" or some such shit )--- are all done for the purpose of giving the fundamentalist Christian lifestyle more mainstream appeal to potential new members. It doesn't mean they are any less patriarchal or oppressive as the Duggars and their "home church" ("tax dodge" is more accurate, IMO.) It only means that they're more willing to make certain lifestyle or aesthetic concessions in exchange for more followers. I think in some cases this might also be done to bring in more money for the church and/or the head pastor (ever notice how loaded some Evangelicals pastors are...?), but having said that, I don't think Jeremy does it for strictly that reason. If he was a former bad boy/party boy, it may simply be that he sees the value in finding ways to make fundamentalism seem more mainstream and pallatable to larger groups of people. But he's definitely still a fundie, along with the rest of the Duggars and their sycophants.

[Suz8710]

I still say we'll see the biggest change and true potential with the youngest 4. By that time, imagine how many Duggar grandkids and inlaws there will be. There will be more opportunities for Hannie/Jenni/Jordyn/Josie to push boundaries than those who came before them. If the pattern continues, most of the older siblings will be dependant upon JB in some way. I still claim JinJer as being tied due to the TLC commitments. They're making money off what is likely a JB enterprise. I'd be shocked if Jill, Jinger and Jessa are negotiating their contracts sans JB's influence. 

 Life for the 4 youngest girls even now is vastly different than how the oldest girls were raised. I'll be curious to see how it plays out for them, unfortunately it'll be a while.

[Cleopatra7]

I think the reason why so many people think that Jeremy isn't fundie is because they assume that fundie = some flavor of IFB + isolationism. However, there are many ways to be fundie, and the IFB variety is just one kind, and not all fundies practice extreme sheltering or isolation. I'm currently taking an anthropology class on religious fundamentalism, and there are many definitions of fundamentalism. One that I particularly like is from the German scholar Riesenbrodt (I forget his first name), which is that fundamentalism is patriarchy that has become aware of itself, mobilizing itself, and going on the offensive on cultural and political issues. This is a good definition of fundamentalism, because it indicates that it's not about whether one believes in skirts-only, public schools, social drinking, or other minutia but rather about fears involving changing social, theological, and gender roles. It can also be used for any type of fundamentalism (i.e., Jewish, Catholic, Hindu, Muslim), not just the Protestant kind.

[singsingsing]

@QuiverDance you expressed confusion about the downvotes, hence my reply about thread drift. It wasn't a personal attack, I promise, but thank you for your concern re: my knickers.  

[2manyKidzzz]

13 minutes ago, Cleopatra7 said:

I think the reason why so many people think that Jeremy isn't fundie is because they assume that fundie = some flavor of IFB + isolationism. However, there are many ways to be fundie, and the IFB variety is just one kind, and not all fundies practice extreme sheltering or isolation. I'm currently taking an anthropology class on religious fundamentalism, and there are many definitions of fundamentalism. One that I particularly like is from the German scholar Riesenbrodt (I forget his first name), which is that fundamentalism is patriarchy that has become aware of itself, mobilizing itself, and going on the offensive on cultural and political issues. This is a good definition of fundamentalism, because it indicates that it's not about whether one believes in skirts-only, public schools, social drinking, or other minutia but rather about fears involving changing social, theological, and gender roles. It can also be used for any type of fundamentalism (i.e., Jewish, Catholic, Hindu, Muslim), not just the Protestant kind.

Interesting and thank you for this. As a current scholar of this subject is it common belief that mainstream Mormonism is considered basically fundamentalist? 

[MargaretElliott]

I can't really blame people for wanting to have hope. When we see Jinger and Jeremy, so normal, so stylish, so un-Duggar-like, I can see why some people would want to think they were drifting from fundamentalism... I just think it's a hope that will not happen. Jinger and Jeremy are the most stylish, relatable, human pair of (everything)-phobes we've seen on this show. They put the fun in fundamentalism 

Kidding aside, I think that does make them the most dangerous of the couples. The fact that they are so normal and appealing lulls people into a false sense of security about their toxic beliefs. I want Jinger to be free, too, I want her to be able to plan her future and have all the rights and opportunities non-fundie women have, I just don't think it's going to happen.