Bates the 20th

[jinger101]

I'm close friends with the Roberts family Trace and Campbell had a rough break up. There was lots of yelling that went down and now the families are at ends. There are rumors that the break up was because Campbell was confused about courting guys in general. Not sure how her father feels about this.  I heard that he wasn't a big fan of Trace in the first place. Heard he only liked Campbell because she looked cute, but he thought that her older sister Daisy was more attractive, but she was already taken. Daisy has had a lot of courtships recently that have been very short. Her father might have to step in and start looking for men for her because of her poor choices. 

[Hmmm_idolatry]

15 minutes ago, jinger101 said:

I'm close friends with the Roberts family Trace and Campbell had a rough break up. There was lots of yelling that went down and now the families are at ends. There are rumors that the break up was because Campbell was confused about courting guys in general. Not sure how her father feels about this.  I heard that he wasn't a big fan of Trace in the first place. Heard he only liked Campbell because she looked cute, but he thought that her older sister Daisy was more attractive, but she was already taken. Daisy has had a lot of courtships recently that have been very short. Her father might have to step in and start looking for men for her because of her poor choices. 

I thought the fathers set up courtships for them.  Can they court on their own without family approval?  I didn't think females were allowed to yell.  And why was Campbell confused about courting?  

[jinger101]

The Roberts father doesn't set up their courtships. He just approves of them. And I'm not quite sure about Campbell yet just rumors right now but her and Trace are over

[Hmmm_idolatry]

3 minutes ago, jinger101 said:

The Roberts father doesn't set up their courtships. He just approves of them. And I'm not quite sure about Campbell yet just rumors right now but her and Trace are over

It's interesting that the Bates boys (other than Zach)  seem to not have much luck in the world of courting.  

[Coconut Flan]

And Zach's first courtship didn't end well either. 

[Hmmm_idolatry]

5 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

And Zach's first courtship didn't end well either. 

Was that courtship arranged by the parents?  

[eleanora3]

1 hour ago, jinger101 said:

I'm close friends with the Roberts family Trace and Campbell had a rough break up. There was lots of yelling that went down and now the families are at ends. There are rumors that the break up was because Campbell was confused about courting guys in general. Not sure how her father feels about this.  I heard that he wasn't a big fan of Trace in the first place. Heard he only liked Campbell because she looked cute, but he thought that her older sister Daisy was more attractive, but she was already taken. Daisy has had a lot of courtships recently that have been very short. Her father might have to step in and start looking for men for her because of her poor choices. 

Thanks for the info. Were they in an official "courtship" before they broke up or just a pre-courting phase? Regardless, I hope they're both okay. They're really young so they have time to figure things out.  I wish they were allowed to do it in an environment that doesn't put so much pressure on finding someone to marry and have kids with before you're truly ready, but breakups in general are - for most of us - just a (very rough) part of life.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

On 3/25/2017 at 8:25 AM, justmy2cents said:

That was my term. All Carlin has said was that they like each other but there's nothing official yet.  The Bates and Duggars differ a tiny bit in that the Bates let them use those terms before they're official. Kelly has said in the past that she asked her kids to save the I love yous til engagement but that has clearly gone out the window.

This boggles my mind shouldn't you know if someone loves you BEFORE you get engaged?  The lunacy of this cult boggles the mind. 

That said, it seems the Bates allow the kids to date, but keep the kissing and sex for marriage. I don't get UP so I don't watch, and I don't follow them as closely but are they chaperoned as well or closely as the Duggar kids? 

[Tangy Bee]

I noticed Trace appeared to be sweet on Daisy back when the Roberts went to visit them years back. Think she might have thought of him as a lilttle brother. All the same, I guessed he was going to choose the next in line. Well, fundie life must go on. Guess things will be awkward when the 2 families see each other again. All the girls seem to be good friends.

[justmy2cents]

I'm having a hard time believing any of this information.  If they 'had a rough break up' with lots of yelling then UPtv could easily have edited her out of that episode and no one would be the wiser.

eta: A close friend wouldn't come to a snark site to gossip. Daisy has had a lot of courtships recently? This all sounds like bs.

[imokit]

2 hours ago, jinger101 said:

 Her father might have to step in and start looking for men for her because of her poor choices. 

Sorry if I'm out of line here, but poor choices? Because someone in her late teens early twenties is going out with multiple guys in short succession to find the right one. Those are good choices in my book. Don't settle at 20 with the wrong one!

[seraaa]

On 3/20/2017 at 8:54 PM, justmy2cents said:

How do we know that they've been courting for a few months?  Could be like the Tori situation where they were in the getting to know you stage for a year.  I think this ski trip happened in early January so it's possible they've already started a courtship but my guess is Tori and Bobby will announce an engagement before Carlin and Evan will.

Is a getting to know you stage what we would call "dating" (but obviously very supervised) and courting is "we intend to be married"?

I have never been able to work out the intricacies

[eleanora3]

1 minute ago, seraaa said:

Is a getting to know you stage what we would call "dating" (but obviously very supervised) and courting is "we intend to be married"?

I have never been able to work out the intricacies

Yeah I guess courtship = serious relationship/talking about whether they'd be good together as a married couple. 

[seraaa]

1 minute ago, eleanora3 said:

Yeah I guess courtship = serious relationship/talking about whether they'd be good together as a married couple. 

That makes sense, but I thought they disapproved of dating in general. Are the Bates' more relaxed about all this than, say, the Duggars, or does the show only make it seem that way?

[justmy2cents]

14 minutes ago, seraaa said:

Is a getting to know you stage what we would call "dating" (but obviously very supervised) and courting is "we intend to be married"?

I have never been able to work out the intricacies

That's because the Bates definition keeps changing. I think courtship used to be the getting to know each other well stage but with the intention to marry and now it seems like the getting to know each other welll stage is the 'special friend' stage which precedes courtship.

[seraaa]

On 3/25/2017 at 11:41 AM, HarleyQuinn said:

I don't understand the label "precourting" when they're already using "boyfriend/girlfriend."  

Me either.

I'm starting to suspect the Bates aren't following the courtship rules to the letter 

[seraaa]

53 minutes ago, justmy2cents said:

That's because the Bates definition keeps changing. I think courtship used to be the getting to know each other well stage but with the intention to marry and now it seems like the getting to know each other welll stage is the 'special friend' stage which precedes courtship.

So it kind of function like they are doing dating>engagement (with wiggle room)>actual'official' engagement?

That's interesting.

(sorry for the multiple posts)

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, seraaa said:

That makes sense, but I thought they disapproved of dating in general. Are the Bates' more relaxed about all this than, say, the Duggars, or does the show only make it seem that way?

I know Kelly explained it in some comments ok their old blog. I looked through it on the Wayback Machine recently and saw them. Of course, I forgot to take screenshots. Sigh

That said, I think the general ideas are the same:

Both families have periods of time where the couple gets to know one another. This period usually isn't shared publicly. The Bateses have been pretty open about how long this takes with their kids (for example, 1.5 years for Zachney.) The Duggars are much more secretive about it.

You also have the official courtship phase. This is when the Duggar couples go public. The Bateses are a bit more lax and seem to introduce the speshul friend before the courtship is official on their show (like Ashley and Bobby and, now, Evan and Campbell.) I think, and a lot of others do too, that the courtships are already official before they go public and they just keep it quiet that they're officially courting until they share the "proposal" on the show. The Duggars seem to announce courtships to drum up interest in new seasons.

The courtship period is very similar to how secular people date. They go out together, text, talk on the phone, etc. The difference is they have stricter standards for touching and use chaperones throughout. Kelly tried framing it as their kids' choice on their old blog, but I'm not buying it. At all.

(By the way, the courtship proposals are kind of stupid and over the top. At least the way Nathan asked Ashley. I mean, seriously, save the big romantic gesture for a potential engagement proposal and do something a bit simpler for the courtship.)

Then we have the engagement period. This is when they're actively planning the weddings. Couples are usually given a bit more freedom at this point.

And, finally, marriage.

Where they seem to differ is the level of contact and private conversations. The Bateses claim they let their kids pick their own rules. So do the Duggars. I think that both sets of parents likely offer a list of things that are permitted and the courting couple can pick and choose based off that. For instance, Cherin had very strict courting and engagement standards. I don't believe they front hugged until they were engaged or married. Whereas Michael and Brandon is front hug - Michael said she hugs everyone and it would have felt unnatural not to.

Smuganna had strict standards possibly because of her parents, but also possibly because of Josh's track record and (possibly) because he was the first Duggar kid to court. I'm thinking that J'erick and Benessa had the same courting standards because they had more mellow partners. JinJer were much more touchy-feely. 

I think the standards in both families may continue to loosen to an extent. Both in an effort to appear more "normal" and because the other kids will see their older siblings acting certain ways without being damned for eternity.

ETA: Jumped back into their old blog. Here's two screenshots of a comment she made regarding courtship:

Spoiler

 

[seraaa]

So a possible the difference between 'getting to know' and 'courting' is that they aren't "allowed" to hang out one-on-one until the courtship stage?

Thanks, @VelociRapture, that was all illuminating! 

[VelociRapture]

11 minutes ago, seraaa said:

So a possible the difference between 'getting to know' and 'courting' is that they aren't "allowed" to hang out one-on-one until the courtship stage?

Thanks, @VelociRapture, that was illuminating! 

They're never allowed to truly be one-on-one before marriage.

Kelly seems to view pre-courting as the normal stage where you get to know someone on a more superficial level. Likes, dislikes, etc. Courtship is their period where they get to know each other on a deeper level to see whether or not they are capitable for marriage. Engagement is for planning the wedding.

[seraaa]

8 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

They're never allowed to truly be one-on-one before marriage.

Kelly seems to view pre-courting as the normal stage where you get to know someone on a more superficial level. Likes, dislikes, etc. Courtship is their period where they get to know each other on a deeper level to see whether or not they are capitable for marriage. Engagement is for planning the wedding.

I see! And it makes sense now how this gives scope for slight differences between families or couples.

That they are never allowed to be alone (or like, text without someone else being a member of the whatsapp group, or whatever, until a certain point) is something I will never get over.

(I am imagining all of this as soundtracked by the King and I, although they will never get to the dance stage)

 

[VelociRapture]

2 minutes ago, seraaa said:

I see! And it makes sense now how this gives scope for slight differences between families or couples.

That they are never allowed to be alone (or like, text without someone else being a member of the whatsapp group, or whatever, until a certain point) is something I will never get over.

See, I'm not sure about private texts or calls. I'm pretty sure that's just for the pre-courting stage and after they start courting they can have private texts. Someone else may need to confirm that though.

[seraaa]

3 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

See, I'm not sure about private texts or calls. I'm pretty sure that's just for the pre-courting stage and after they start courting they can have private texts. Someone else may need to confirm that though.

ohh that's at least a bit better, if so!

 

So weird to have to curtail what would otherwise be a naturally evolving relationship into arbitrary stages, tho

[imokit]

JB said either Jill or Jessa (can't remember who) wasn't allowed private texts with their man. I think Kelly has said private texts were ok,but I don't know from what stage.

[justmy2cents]

I think the Duggars monitor texts but not phone calls.  Jessa said something about having private hour long phone calls in the courting stage. Also it doesn't seem that JInger's phone calls were monitored. I think it's creepy to have your parents or family around while you SKYPE.  Are they that worried about sexting that they don't let them have hardly any privacy?