Michael and Brandon Keilen- Part 2

[Mela99]

And an evil dude holding a scroll 

[socalrules]

I might not like the book but I give Brandon credit for doing the illustrations himself and likely the writing as well. Better than the Duggar woman two tried to say they are best selling authors when they didn't write anything in their book. My guess is that Brandon might make a little money selling to other fundies. 

[JillyO]

May they never, ever, find a pubisher willing to spread their hate.

[colors_outside15]

4 minutes ago, JillyO said:

May they never, ever, find a pubisher willing to spread their hate.

Francia White did ... they will too ... 

[RosyDaisy]

Please, dear God. Don't allow these people to spread their hate and evil beliefs to innocent children.

[formergothardite]

6 hours ago, JillyO said:

May they never, ever, find a pubisher willing to spread their hate.

I'm fairly sure it will be sold through IBLP. 

[Hmmm_idolatry]

19 hours ago, JillyO said:

May they never, ever, find a pubisher willing to spread their hate.

I agree.  It's not like the world needs some more books written by fundy extremists.  There are already far too many on the market.  Is Michael a co-author, or is that not allowed?  

[actuallyjessica]

Do you really think people that don't subscribe to the beliefs in the book, are going to accidentally pick the book up and buy it? Doubt it.

If children are raised in a religious household it's just a book to them - a book they can read that won't contain any defrauding topics like gay parents or breastfeeding or whatever.

When ISIS come out with a children's book that's when everyone should be worried.

[JillyO]

52 minutes ago, actuallyjessica said:

Do you really think people that don't subscribe to the beliefs in the book, are going to accidentally pick the book up and buy it? Doubt it.

If children are raised in a religious household it's just a book to them - a book they can read that won't contain any defrauding topics like gay parents or breastfeeding or whatever.

When ISIS come out with a children's book that's when everyone should be worried.

What the fuck? If you don't think Christian fundamentalism is dangerous, then you're really not in the right place here. Let me tell you a little secret: Christian fundamentalism is a much greater, much more real threat to the US than ISIS. And I'm not underestimating ISIS in the slightest. I work with Syrian refugees every single day, and I've heard stories you never want to hear.

That doesn't change the fact that the way the Christian right is undermining American values and freedoms and trying to establish a  theocracy in the name of "defending 'MURICA against them evil Muslims" is significantly more dangerous to the US than ISIS. And yes, that includes indoctrinating future generations through children's books that promote patriarchy, female submission, anti-intellectualism, homophobia, and Islamophobia (among many other harmful beliefs). If you don't think that's a problem, then you are part of the problem.

[actuallyjessica]

What the fuck? If you don't think Christian fundamentalism is dangerous, then you're really not in the right place here. Let me tell you a little secret: Christian fundamentalism is a much greater, much more real threat to the US than ISIS. And I'm not underestimating ISIS in the slightest. I work with Syrian refugees every single day, and I've heard stories you never want to hear.
That doesn't change the fact that the way the Christian right is undermining American values and freedoms and trying to establish a  theocracy in the name of "defending 'MURICA against them evil Muslims" is significantly more dangerous to the US than ISIS. And yes, that includes indoctrinating future generations through children's books that promote patriarchy, female submission, anti-intellectualism, homophobia, and Islamophobia (among many other harmful beliefs). If you don't think that's a problem, then you are part of the problem.

Go back and read my post again. I didn't say I don't think it's dangerous, just that those who already believe what's in the pages are going to buy. You're not going to get any converts from thinking "wow, what a lovely book". I think living in a cult is incredibly dangerous and detrimental to any personal growth and I also believe it has nothing to do with spirituality at all, but rather one person, or organisation, insisting on having control over its members. That's a cult. Dangerous in all forms. All different flavours of the same thing.

[formergothardite]

Do I think some Bates fan will buy it? Yes. Yes I do. We have already seen from the instagram comments that Gil and Kelly were able to lure fans in Australia into attending some IBLP classes. 

IBLP preys on people who long for the "perfect" life with a big loving family. And that is exactly what the Bates present on the show. 

[singsingsing]

2 hours ago, actuallyjessica said:

Go back and read my post again. I didn't say I don't think it's dangerous, just that those who already believe what's in the pages are going to buy. 

Why would you assume that? How do you think they gain converts?

[Yomoaw]

4 hours ago, actuallyjessica said:

Go back and read my post again. I didn't say I don't think it's dangerous, just that those who already believe what's in the pages are going to buy. You're not going to get any converts from thinking "wow, what a lovely book". I think living in a cult is incredibly dangerous and detrimental to any personal growth and I also believe it has nothing to do with spirituality at all, but rather one person, or organisation, insisting on having control over its members. That's a cult. Dangerous in all forms. All different flavours of the same thing.

I think you're forgetting that people will buy these as gifts too. A few years ago, one of my fundie aunts bought me this gorgeous book of daily devotionals. It was leather bound, really nice paper, and a few beautiful illustrations and calligraphy - I'm sure similar to the on Brandon is putting together. It was so nice that I felt bad not opening it, at least every now and then. I'm not religious in the least and I was still sucked in. Now it just lives in a box in my closet because it's too nice to throw out, but I don't want to read it. I don't believe in the pages, but I'm probably going to have this book the rest of my life.

[backyard sylph]

Back to more banal blanket set topic, if I may. I have a four week-old grandson I made two baby quilts for, and another grandkid due in early November, so I started on more little quilts. But these "blankets with tags" look super fun, so I had some Google time and found a variety of tutorials, Etsy offerings, etc. I think this one from 2014 explained it nicely for anyone else who is interested. Call it what you like, I guess.

[front hugs > duggs]

Michaela just posted in her IG that more of her products will soon be available again on her site. It seems maybe she sold out initially? In the picture were the tag blankets, so no apparent lawsuit on the patent front. I still don't understand those damn tags being patented...

[Hmmm_idolatry]

I do think that the Bates products can result in conversions.  If you look at their Instagram accounts, you'll see comments from fans along the lines of, "I just love your values" , "I've recently started wearing only skirts, and I've asked my parents to consider only courtships for me, not dating", and "I've decided to homeschool my kids and I want to use the curriculum that you use".  It's very, very disturbing.  

So, yes, IMO, any books that they put out are just as dangerous as ISIS propaganda.  Religious fundamentalism of any sort, be it Christian or Muslim is dangerous.  

[Carm_88]

The Bates sunny, sweet, outgoing personalities are a stark contrast to what IBLP stands for. So yes, silly books that leghumpers will buy are dangerous. The leghumpers may be conservative Christians but not quite the giving up all control of their uterus type. The world does not need anymore of these people being converted. We need less. 

[actuallyjessica]

If people are stupid enough to convert into a cult, they'd do so without smiling faces on TV or taggy blankets, or childrens books.

No one with actual brains would look at the belief system they use and think it was perfect. And if they do, well, they're perfect for IBLP life.

There are sheep everywhere, cults everywhere. People bowing down to particular organisations everywhere. It's all the same.
 

[singsingsing]

14 minutes ago, actuallyjessica said:

If people are stupid enough to convert into a cult, they'd do so without smiling faces on TV or taggy blankets, or childrens books.

No one with actual brains would look at the belief system they use and think it was perfect. And if they do, well, they're perfect for IBLP life.

There are sheep everywhere, cults everywhere. People bowing down to particular organisations everywhere. It's all the same.
 

Regardless of whether being "stupid" is a prerequisite for being sucked into a cult, how do you think these "sheep" find out about the cult in the first place? It's cool by you that people like the Bateses are actively recruiting, because the people their tactics succeed with have no "actual brains" and therefore deserve what they get? Would you shrug off picture books intended to indoctrinate kids into white supremacy because "no one with actual brains" would get involved in that, and those who do are just idiots anyway?

[choralcrusader8613]

57 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Regardless of whether being "stupid" is a prerequisite for being sucked into a cult, how do you think these "sheep" find out about the cult in the first place? It's cool by you that people like the Bateses are actively recruiting, because the people their tactics succeed with have no "actual brains" and therefore deserve what they get? Would you shrug off picture books intended to indoctrinate kids into white supremacy because "no one with actual brains" would get involved in that, and those who do are just idiots anyway?

Also, it's not like they would be so obvious that people would immediately see the crazy. You start with the stuff that sounds normal or benign and slowly work through the layers.

Cults prey upon people who have a deep need to belong to something. They're not stupid; these people are often lonely or see something good in the cult members. They want the happiness they see, because they aren't aware of the ugliness beneath.

ETA that we have ex-cult members on FJ, and I'm sure they don't appreciate being called stupid, either.

[backyard sylph]

5 hours ago, front hugs > duggs said:

Michaela just posted in her IG that more of her products will soon be available again on her site. It seems maybe she sold out initially? In the picture were the tag blankets, so no apparent lawsuit on the patent front. I still don't understand those damn tags being patented...

I don't either, but I saw plenty of pictures and instructions for making your own in various ways going back at least to 2009, and in several Etsy shops, so if more than the name is patented, well, it isn't being reined in. And people are personalizing them and adding details beyond the original. I'm going to add a teething ring to one of the loops on one of mine; something I saw a few examples of.

[actuallyjessica]

2 hours ago, choralcrusader8613 said:

ETA that we have ex-cult members on FJ, and I'm sure they don't appreciate being called stupid, either.

they weren't heavily indoctrinated enough if they have the smarts to leave.
 

i think all cults are stupid. and people often jump from one to another...

[formergothardite]

10 hours ago, actuallyjessica said:

f people are stupid enough to convert into a cult, they'd do so without smiling faces on TV or taggy blankets, or childrens books.

No one with actual brains would look at the belief system they use and think it was perfect. And if they do, well, they're perfect for IBLP life.

There are sheep everywhere, cults everywhere. People bowing down to particular organisations everywhere. It's all the same.

You are very clueless on how cults and even fundie churches work. The converts aren't stupid, they are vulnerable. Cults like IBLP prey on people's vulnerability. For someone who grew up in a dysfunctional home, yes a smiling, seemingly happy family is appealing. They want what the Bates appear to have and the Bates are so good at selling it that a good many people don't realize none of that is real. On the surface they don't look crazy like they Duggars. 

Years before my family even thought about joining IBLP they ended up buying the huge animal Character books made by Gothard's creepy brother. They had no idea the rest of IBLP's teachings, they just thought they were buying some Christian character stories with really amazing pictures(the drawings truly are stunning). And then they ended up buying other stuff slowly as the years went by. Nothing that would reveal the true insanity of IBLP. So when they got to a point where life was falling to pieces and they were vulnerable, it was easier for that oh so happy IBLP family who had sold them this stuff to sweep in and convince them that joining IBLP would help fix their problems. Sure there were some people who said, even back then, that IBLP was bad, but my parents at that point had been using their materials for years and none of it looked too crazy. 

My parents weren't stupid, they were vulnerable and being preyed on by a fine tuned cult machine that knows exactly how to pull people in. 

[eleanora3]

4 hours ago, formergothardite said:

You are very clueless on how cults and even fundie churches work. The converts aren't stupid, they are vulnerable. Cults like IBLP prey on people's vulnerability. For someone who grew up in a dysfunctional home, yes a smiling, seemingly happy family is appealing. They want what the Bates appear to have and the Bates are so good at selling it that a good many people don't realize none of that is real. On the surface they don't look crazy like they Duggars. 

Years before my family even thought about joining IBLP they ended up buying the huge animal Character books made by Gothard's creepy brother. They had no idea the rest of IBLP's teachings, they just thought they were buying some Christian character stories with really amazing pictures(the drawings truly are stunning). And then they ended up buying other stuff slowly as the years went by. Nothing that would reveal the true insanity of IBLP. So when they got to a point where life was falling to pieces and they were vulnerable, it was easier for that oh so happy IBLP family who had sold them this stuff to sweep in and convince them that joining IBLP would help fix their problems. Sure there were some people who said, even back then, that IBLP was bad, but my parents at that point had been using their materials for years and none of it looked too crazy. 

My parents weren't stupid, they were vulnerable and being preyed on by a fine tuned cult machine that knows exactly how to pull people in. 

If you're up to talking about it, I am probably less educated on IBLP than most FJers and am extremely curious about it all.

[VelociRapture]

13 minutes ago, eleanora3 said:

If you're up to talking about it, I am probably less educated on IBLP than most FJers and am extremely curious about it all.

All of us start out pretty clueless. Unless you were involved with the cult somehow. The fact that you'd like to learn more is an excellent start.

If you need something to read or to pass the time, then I'd suggest Recovering Grace - it's a website that discusses the harm caused by IBLP and ATI. It includes personal stories from people who were involved and has an excellent breakdown of the scandals that brought down Steve Gothard and, eventually, Bill Gothard as well.

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/