Lydia Coghlan Hinrichs Talks FJ

[ladyamylynn]

Yes, the fact that she looks at their situation (coffee shop employee, entry-level IT worker) and thinks they're well-prepared for a child shows the stark reality of the situation her parents willingly put them through as kids. Plenty of people have raised kids just fine with meager means, but don't people usually want better for their kids than they grew up with? Why the apathy and lack of drive to better ones situation?

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, slickcat79 said:

Meanwhile Perry probably did more actual work in a week than DPIAT did in an entire year, plus routinely brought his underage daughters to work for a man who turned out to be a pedophile.

Eh, I liked your post (genuinely) but I have a minor quibble.

DPIAT is an asshole extraordinaire, a narcissist, a con-man, a sexual harasser, a molester, he might even be a rapist (although that was not charged)  - but I don't think he was necessarily a pedophile.  Lourdes never - ever - claimed that he molested her when she was a minor.  DPIAT just wanted to claim that she did to discredit her.

I dunno.  I like to be precise on this stuff.  The FSM knows why.

[ViolaSebastian]

Did anyone catch this comment on that thread?

Quote

You know the biggest irony is that, having never helped care for any children, they really have no objective reason to think it would be a distasteful life choice. It's about as logical as it would be for me to say to a doctor or lawyer or any career that i had no experiential knowledge of, "I can't believe you would choose such an unfulfilling career. How sad for you."

I don't think anyone is saying that having children is a distasteful personal choice, especially given that it seems more FJers are parents than not. I guess they missed the parenting and pregnant thread...

[fundiefan]

10 minutes ago, ViolaSebastian said:

Did anyone catch this comment on that thread?

I don't think anyone is saying that having children is a distasteful personal choice, especially given that it seems more FJers are parents than not. I guess they missed the parenting and pregnant thread...

It's the classic 'give them an inch and they'll run a mile". By saying that it may not be the best choice to have children as a teenager when you have starter jobs, you are allowing them to ignore anything you said as well as any logical progression of conversation and go right for "they hate babies and that's odd because none of them ever cared for one anyway".

It's so much easier to ignore what is actually said than to examine that maybe someone has a point.

[SoybeanQueen]

45 minutes ago, ViolaSebastian said:

I don't think anyone is saying that having children is a distasteful personal choice, especially given that it seems more FJers are parents than not. I guess they missed the parenting and pregnant thread...

It's just easier to demonize everyone who disagrees with them as child-haters versus acknowledging that people from a variety of lifestyles find legalism, VF, and quiverfull/patriarchy distasteful.

I'm a modest-dressing work-from-home (by choice) Christian mom of 5 who has homeschooled before. On the surface, it would probably appear that I have a lot in common with some of these people. Claiming that I have never helped care for children is hilarious. Maybe that frees up my next hour to continue posting if I no longer need to make dinner for my own personal child army?

[feministxtian]

16 minutes ago, SoybeanQueen said:

It's just easier to demonize everyone who disagrees with them as child-haters versus acknowledging that people from a variety of lifestyles find legalism, VF, and quiverfull/patriarchy distasteful

I've already raised my kids...I disagreed with them when I had kids and now when I don't have any left at home. I don't "hate" kids at all, I love them. I wish I'd been able to have more kids but life didn't work out that way. It doesn't change the fact that I find that whole legalistic/patriarchal/fundamentalist lifestyle horrible. 

[Grimalkin]

1 hour ago, ViolaSebastian said:

Did anyone catch this comment on that thread?

I don't think anyone is saying that having children is a distasteful personal choice, especially given that it seems more FJers are parents than not. I guess they missed the parenting and pregnant thread...

    It's called bitch eating crackers. I don't think she even read here. Meh, so what. The more ridiculous the crap they post, the more people will come over to peek. Let them come and make up their own minds. I think most of us have twisted facts at least once.

[nausicaa]

2 hours ago, ViolaSebastian said:

Did anyone catch this comment on that thread?

I don't think anyone is saying that having children is a distasteful personal choice, especially given that it seems more FJers are parents than not. I guess they missed the parenting and pregnant thread...

I saw that and . Amazing how he could somehow surmise that every single poster on FJ has never cared for a child. Especially considering the majority seem to be parents, not even including the numbers of FJers who have younger siblings, nieces/nephews, and have worked in schools or daycares. 

And yeah, again with the crappy reading skills on their part. No one said having children is a distasteful life choice. We're not Shakers over here. Just that rushing into it before one is financially or emotionally ready is a possibly a poor life choice. But like @SoybeanQueen said, demonizing people and fighting straw mans is easier than really looking at what people are criticizing you for.

[slickcat79]

4 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Eh, I liked your post (genuinely) but I have a minor quibble.

DPIAT is an asshole extraordinaire, a narcissist, a con-man, a sexual harasser, a molester, he might even be a rapist (although that was not charged)  - but I don't think he was necessarily a pedophile.  Lourdes never - ever - claimed that he molested her when she was a minor.  DPIAT just wanted to claim that she did to discredit her.

I dunno.  I like to be precise on this stuff.  The FSM knows why.

Fair point. I was probably conflating him with Gothard, who I think has those tendencies whether he's fully acted on them or not. I couldn't remember how old Lourdes said she was in her allegations. I'd rather be precise as well.

[MamaJunebug]

3 hours ago, nausicaa said:

I saw that and . .... No one said having children is a distasteful life choice. We're not Shakers over here. ..

 

**i hate when I fluff a wisecrack***

For some reason I can't reply outside the quote box. I wanted to snark, "Not Shakers? Speak for yourself. Love the chairs!!!" 

Ah, well...

[Black Aliss]

As someone who was at one time simultaneously a full time parent of three kids 5 and under and a grad school student (because I wanted to have the skills to support those kids come what may) I know it is possible to do both successfully and to love both the academic exercise and the child-rearing, as long as sleep isn't  a high priority. I also know that it has something to do with all three of my kids vowing to get their formal education out of the way before they became parents.

[Grimalkin]

7 hours ago, slickcat79 said:

I've been very curious about all that as well. Even before the implosion, Dougie and his special friends traveled the world and put on costume parties while the Coghlan kids slept on literal shelves in a vermin-infested "house" illegally built on some else's property. The VF elite hosted fancy-dress tea parties at hundreds of dollars a head while the Coghlan girls wore hand-me-down shorts and tank tops because really...how else do you survive a Texas summer with no air conditioning? I mean, I know which outfit I'd prefer, but there's certainly a contrast. 

Meanwhile Perry probably did more actual work in a week than DPIAT did in an entire year, plus routinely brought his underage daughters to work for a man who turned out to be a pedophile. Instead of getting gifts from the "Beautiful Girlhood" catalog, the kids had to sell all the secondhand VF merch they could scrounge to make ends meet. Not that I think they were missing out on anything by not collecting that overpriced crap, but it would be nice if they didn't have to sacrifice for their parents' benefit instead of the other way around. They may not be prepared to acknowledge it, but the Coghlan kids (especially the older girls) deserved better. 

As far as education goes, they are probably more well-read and have more life experience than most fundies their age. That's the scary part 

      Do you know if the girls ever got a chance to participate in these elite events? I realize they are costly, I can say that many places like dance studios and gymnastics centers often have ways for kids who cannot afford it to participate. Either by fund raisers, kids or parents volunteering to offset the costs, and some people anonymously donate money. Surely there were chances for them. 

[anachronistic]

It really boils my guts when people hear about FJ and think all we do here is make fun of others for our own amusement. That is just not true. I think that the vast majority of FJites are kind, caring people who are genuinely worried about the direction that fundamentalists are taking the US and the world. For those of us who aren't familiar with the fundie culture, we seek to learn about it so that we may better interact with others who are part of it. We want kids to grow up happy, healthy and educated, able to make their own choices, and we see that Christian fundamentalism is not a route to well rounded adults. We are concerned that their extremist views will have impact on our own personal lives, and the lives of others, like by making it harder for people to access healthcare.

 

Yes, we do snark on people, but the snark comes from concern. Has anyone among us not dreamed of taking in a little Rodrigues kid and feeding them a proper meal, or calling CPS on certain 'discipline' methods, or enrolling a Shupe kid in school? (Maybe that dream did come true actually.) Unfortunately, there is very little that we can actually do, so we talk about it instead, and we hope against hope that at least some of these kids will one day be free.

[slickcat79]

9 hours ago, Grimalkin said:

Do you know if the girls ever got a chance to participate in these elite events? I realize they are costly, I can say that many places like dance studios and gymnastics centers often have ways for kids who cannot afford it to participate. Either by fund raisers, kids or parents volunteering to offset the costs, and some people anonymously donate money. Surely there were chances for them.

Well, considering that the events themselves were mostly a way for Vision Forum to line its pockets, I doubt they were taking on too many charity cases. I finally found a description of the 2011 Father-Daughter Retreat that included the cost: $625 per father/daughter, and another $205 for each additional girl - plus tax. And that was for games, a fancy picnic, a church service, and the opportunity to hear such inspiring speakers as Scott Brown and the Botkinettes. 

Again, I don't think they were missing out on anything if they didn't go to this. It usually seemed like a spectacular creep-fest, complete with overly romantic overtones and girls shaving their daddies  But it just highlights the difference between the shiny image and the gritty reality of being associated with a quiverfull cult. 

[ophelia]

I never realized how costly these retreats really were! A lot of fundie fathers must have really saved over months to be able to attend with their daughters.

[Grimalkin]

1 hour ago, slickcat79 said:

Well, considering that the events themselves were mostly a way for Vision Forum to line its pockets, I doubt they were taking on too many charity cases. I finally found a description of the 2011 Father-Daughter Retreat that included the cost: $625 per father/daughter, and another $205 for each additional girl - plus tax. And that was for games, a fancy picnic, a church service, and the opportunity to hear such inspiring speakers as Scott Brown and the Botkinettes. 

Again, I don't think they were missing out on anything if they didn't go to this. It usually seemed like a spectacular creep-fest, complete with overly romantic overtones and girls shaving their daddies  But it just highlights the difference between the shiny image and the gritty reality of being associated with a quiverfull cult. 

     I was just wondering. The owners of the gymnastics center and dance studio have families, and are in it to make money and pay bills to earn a living. I know they work things out with those who cannot afford it, and reduce rates. They also want kids to be able to participate in something they love. I also know there are a lot of kind and generous people who anonymously donate for those kids. I was wondering if that happened at those events. I have been on the board of other youth enrichment organizations. Some really look at how they spend money to make it cost effective so more can participate. Some cannot be bothered. We probably will never know the answer. 

     I agree that this did not miss out on much. They may not of been interested anyway. 

     My husband's family had some hard times when he was a kid. When people make comments like "money isn't everything, and can't buy you happiness." He will tell them to F* off because nobody who ever went hungry said those words.

[hoipolloi]

Re: snark & FJ & our critics. Snark is an important tool, particularly when it comes to bad people. As La Rochefoucauld* said, most men would rather be thought evil than ridiculous. When a significant part of the badness is wound up in a narcissistic promotion of self or cults based on the self (as is the case with many of our snarkees), snark is a critical tool. Snark gets the assholes right where they live and move and have their beings. No wonder they're upset - we're right and they know it but all they can come up with are idiotic ad hominem (or ad feninem) accusations. Of course, the other strength of FJ is the sheer quality & volume of information here. Add that to the snark and the elephant-who-never-forgets quality of the hive mind, and, well, is it surprising the FJ critics are upset?

Lydia & company: go ask your parents why and how they got sucked into the VF cult. Ask THEM why worshipping in the cult of Doug Phillips was OK. Ask THEM why they never questioned anything Doug said or did.  Ask THEM where they think all the money went -- you know, the money that your families either paid or donated or helped bring in through working at VFI/VFM. Ask THEM why it's OK for the Phillips family to be swanning about, living the high life, while you guys are busting ass to make ends meet. Don't get mad at us for pointing it all out. Ask them.

*Aging brain cells make this attribution -- cannot find citation for this & would love one if anyone has it.

[Nashville92]

She probably wouldn't like me much.  I'm 27, single, no kids, and nothing on the horizon.  I love having a job and being able to spend my money on myself.  I'm also glad I have a college degree, it's something I pride myself on.  It's something people can't take away from me.  Yes I do attend church, I also don't drink alcohol neither do I go out and party, I have no interest in it.  I just feel bad for these kids that they're not given the opportunity to make a choice to do these things that are just normal to me

[CloakNDagger]

1 hour ago, hoipolloi said:

Lydia & company: go ask your parents why and how they got sucked into the VF cult. Ask THEM why worshipping in the cult of Doug Phillips was OK. Ask THEM why they never questioned anything Doug said or did.  Ask THEM where they think all the money went -- you know, the money that your families either paid or donated or helped bring in through working at VFI/VFM. Ask THEM why it's OK for the Phillips family to be swanning about, living the high life, while you guys are busting ass to make ends meet. Don't get mad at us for pointing it all out. Ask them.

*Aging brain cells make this attribution -- cannot find citation for this & would love one if anyone has it.

How I would come back on that? The Coghlans may have been there, but they were never part of BCA, always held their differences, like Christmas. It was always clear that there were things they weren't in lock step on. Perry outright wasn't going to give up Christmas and there were plenty of times that those out in the warehouse were listening to his Christmas music while sending out packages.
Second, where did all of the money go? It's still not obvious to me that a ton of it wasn't needed to run the business, and towards the end things weren't exactly rosy financially on the for profit side of the business.
Third, Doug wasn't so much a master theologian as he borrowed stuff from others and brought it all together. Some may have been good, some bad. Doug told a bunch of interns and others one time to never tell anyone, but that one of his biggest secrets was being able to get a bunch of people together who didn't necessarily like each other, but that were "experts" in one way or another and bring them together for our events and such. So selling toy crossbows, shields and swords, books, and all the other stuff wasn't necessarily "harmful." Of course I would say that the outright propaganda like a number of Doug's CDs and stuff like the awful Gossip CD, those things we should all look back on with shame and regret.
I'll bet they don't care about the last point. I certainly don't. Plenty of others of my friends have found ways to have adventures on a budget and I hope that Justice for instance learns a lot about life on his adventures and does well in the future in honest business.

[DomWackTroll]

24 minutes ago, CloakNDagger said:

So selling toy crossbows, shields and swords, books, and all the other stuff wasn't necessarily "harmful."

Some of us believe that gender stereotypes are harmful, and that that's what Phillips was really selling: gender stereotypes called "toys." The catalog was always divided: a boy section and a girl section. Girls were never seen playing with the crossbows. Boys were never seen playing with the dolls. In fact, it wasn't just visual cues: the text was explicit as far as what boys could do and be and what girls could do and be. 

The most nauseating  visual example had to be when they took a rather famous painting in which a queen stood above a knight to, you know, knight him, and lowered her into submission. Never mind that she now appeared to be giving him a hand job-- at least she wasn't above him, which would have been a much more harmful thing for Christian children to see, apparently.

[slp]

My friend and I both used to get their catalog.  My 3 older girls all got a Vision Forum doll for Christmas one year.  Anyway, when we'd get the catalog , our girls (I have 4, she has 5.) used to complain "there's nothing in the girl section but baby dolls and we already HAVE those."  LOL 

We are both pretty conservative families, you'd probably call us 'fundie lite' but we rolled eyes at that 'boy and girl section stuff'.  She bought all her kids (boys and girls) the crossbow, the zip line thing, several other toys in the boy section. I did too.

And the two of us found the whole 'father worship' stuff to be creepy ( the Botkin girls shaving their father completely weirded us out)

 

[CloakNDagger]

I totally get and agree with those objections, but that's every bit historical of a "thing" as it is theological. Plenty of people don't "get" that there is anything wrong with that, and of course plenty of girls played with stuff from the boys catalog. 

And yeah, girls shaving their dads is super, super creepy.

[Palimpsest]

Doug sold a heck of a lot of crappy stuff including those out of copyright books all gussied up, but with the toys it was the marketing that was gendered and disgusting not the toys themselves.  I would have sold all my dolls for a crossbow when I was 9.

35 minutes ago, DomWackTroll said:

Never mind that she now appeared to be giving him a hand job-- at least she wasn't above him, which would have been a much more harmful thing for Christian children to see, apparently.

That's still funny - and gross!

1 hour ago, CloakNDagger said:

Second, where did all of the money go? It's still not obvious to me that a ton of it wasn't needed to run the business, and towards the end things weren't exactly rosy financially on the for profit side of the business.

Well, there was limited appeal for all that stuff and Doug doesn't seem like a details person.  I always thought there was some funny business going on between VFI and VFM financially, and Doug certainly got enough perks from VFM (salary, house, travel expenses, etc.) to maintain the lifestyle he wanted.

It's also quite possible that Doug and his children inherited money from Howard Phillips' estate.  They certainly don't seem to be living in poverty these days.  

Quote

I'll bet they don't care about the last point. I certainly don't. Plenty of others of my friends have found ways to have adventures on a budget and

Of course you can have adventures on a budget.  It's the contrast in lifestyles that is an issue.  It's all fine and dandy if you have family money to preach living on a single income with all the children God provides.  It's a damn sight more difficult if you aren't independently wealthy, and are also uneducated and working in dead-end jobs.

Quote

I hope that Justice for instance learns a lot about life on his adventures and does well in the future in honest business.

I'd seriously give three loud cheers if Justice did learn a lot about life on his travels, cast off Daddy's shackles, went to college and/or set up a legitimate business or career.  How old is he now - 22ish?  He has time.   Perhaps he has a trust fund to pay for all this travel and will get a real job eventually.  Preferably before he marries and procreates indiscriminately.

I'm not very optimistic about Joshua Titus though, especially if he's hooking up with the Sprouls.  Frying pan, fire, and all that.  All hail the Patriarchy.  Joshua looks to be staying well within his safety zone with his job at Reformation Bible College.

[hoipolloi]

1 hour ago, CloakNDagger said:

where did all of the money go? It's still not obvious to me that a ton of it wasn't needed to run the business, and towards the end things weren't exactly rosy financially on the for profit side of the business.

It was always and ONLY about the money. Doug Phillips is no more religious than my car's spare tire. The holey corporate veil between VFI & VFM obviously allowed for $$ to flow pretty much one way -- into coffers controlled by Doug Phillips Is A Tool.

Why wasn't this exposed? My guess would be through MAD -- mutual assured destruction. VFM board members, technically overseeing the "non-profit," would face significant legal consequences for allowing or overlooking the double-dealing going on. Thus, it was not in their interests either to reveal or investigate any of it very deeply when it all came crashing down.

 

 

 

[Palimpsest]

48 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

VFM board members, technically overseeing the "non-profit," would face significant legal consequences for allowing or overlooking the double-dealing going on. Thus, it was not in their interests either to reveal or investigate any of it very deeply when it all came crashing down.

This.  A thousand times this.  And in addition, those same board members liquidated VFM leaving spare change only.  Terribly convenient and, frankly, highly suspicious.