Jill, Derick and Israel- Part 16

[theinvisiblegirl]

4 hours ago, MiddleAgedLady said:

And then someone asked him when will they announce Jill's pregnancy and he says 'we are not sure yet'

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/derick4Him/status/742407531276820480

Derick, buddy, if she is pregnant, didn't you technically just announce it there? "Not sure yet" - either she's pregnant and they don't know when to announce because Zika, or he poorly worded what should have been "Well, we aren't pregnant so there's nothing to announce!"

[MakeItSo]

I'm with @theinvisiblegirl. to me it also sounded like "we haven't gotten the ok yet from the people who give us our monthly allowance yet."...then I realized that with the Dullards it could have also just been a wording issue

[Mela99]

I'm *astonished* he would say something about Muslims like that. 

[OrchidBlossom]

8 hours ago, theinvisiblegirl said:

And another.

 

I *want* to believe that he means that we should be tolerant and respectful of the Muslim faith and not denigrate its practitioners. The cynic in me thinks he means something like "because all Muslims are radical so we don't need a separate name for it" or something equally awful. 

[mizandry]

1 hour ago, OrchidBlossom said:

I *want* to believe that he means that we should be tolerant and respectful of the Muslim faith and not denigrate its practitioners. The cynic in me thinks he means something like "because all Muslims are radical so we don't need a separate name for it" or something equally awful. 

Yeah, that's definitely what I got from it too (bolded, I mean). Either way, his wording reads to me like he's being deliberately obtuse in his meaning, and that's some dirty shit he's pulling right there as far as I'm concerned.

Especially because when you read the responding tweets, you can see that people are getting conflicting interpretations about his point as well, based on their own confirmation bias. Some guy thinks he's arguing the former, while another thinks he's arguing the latter. And they're tagging him in their argument.

And yet, most notably, Derick doesn't seem all too concerned about correcting whoever is misunderstanding him in the 12+ hours since posting that tweet, even though he's being tagged in an Islamophobic conversation/argument spearheaded by his sentiment... which pretty much tells me everything. It doesn't concern him that someone is using his words to convey a different, and far more hateful, meaning? Hmmm. I'm definitely leaning on the latter being what he meant... and while I'm not surprised, I'm disgusted. If I didn't dislike Derick already, I sure as fuck do now. 

Spoiler

Hey, Derick? I'd send this to you on Twitter but I don't want to be in that direct of contact with you, so, since you probably do lurk here: FUCK YOU. Your bullshit continues to be noticed and it's not appreciated one bit. Also? You are not a great testament to your faith. Seriously. You are exactly the kind of person who turns people AWAY from your religion -- because you do shit like this all. the. time. to other people. It's shit like this that confirms to me that you are one hell of a vile, selfish person just like the rest of that club you joined. How DARE you point fingers at anyone but yourself... you're gonna analyze an entire religious text you do not actually fucking understand or rely on but are quick to turn around and say violent Christians who murder people are "fake" Christians? Or are you gonna also argue in favor of just calling Christian extremists "faithful Christians"? 

Fuck you and your washed-up, double-standard hypocrisy. Fuck you for speaking like you know what a faithful Muslim looks like --- YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT, DERICK. YOU MARRIED A DUGGAR.

 

[Alicja]

Wait, what the fuck?? He actually said that??? What the fuck what the FCUK

I'm legit in shock. I hope someone asks him to clarify... because this could either be a really good thing or a really bad thjng

[nst]

On 6/13/2016 at 6:28 PM, theinvisiblegirl said:

Derick, buddy, if she is pregnant, didn't you technically just announce it there? "Not sure yet" - either she's pregnant and they don't know when to announce because Zika, or he poorly worded what should have been "Well, we aren't pregnant so there's nothing to announce!"

Wait - so Jill is pregnant 

ob boy 

[Buzzard]

1 hour ago, Alicja said:

Wait, what the fuck?? He actually said that??? What the fuck what the FCUK

 

I'm legit in shock. I hope someone asks him to clarify... because this could either be a really good thing or a really bad thjng

 

I read it as "all muslims are terrorists" because the terrorists were faithful muslims, there is no "radical", thats just Islam.  He's so ignorant its amazing.

[anotherone]

As the saying goes, if you don't have anything nice to say, be quiet.  I want to add, if you do have something nice to say, then actually just come right out and say it, don't give those ambiguous statements that can be misinterpreted by absolutely everyone.

[crazysnark]

I know I am about to get teared apart for this but I have read the Quran and it is the most awful belief system. It's depictions of hell make the Bible look like a children's book, the treatment of women is deplorable and it DOES encourage the murder of non believers. I don't see how any one can agree with that belief system and be "moderate" about it because that would be discarding half of the book. At the same time I also know the Bible is flooded with a lot of sexism and violence as well, which is why we here at FJ disagree with the fundie lifestyle and Christian Fundamentalists. I know a lot of people who claim to be Muslim are not horrible people and are probably just like everyone else. However, I would question their actual belief in the Quran. I just can't see how someone who agrees or sympathizes with that hideous book to be a decent human.  

I know a lot of people here will disagree with me and this is okay but please do not accuse me of being ignorant because I am not on this subject. A few years ago I read the Bible, Quran and Book of Mormon because I am very interested in religion. 

[OldFadedStar]

30 minutes ago, crazysnark said:

I know I am about to get teared apart for this but I have read the Quran and it is the most awful belief system. It's depictions of hell make the Bible look like a children's book, the treatment of women is deplorable and it DOES encourage the murder of non believers. I don't see how any one can agree with that belief system and be "moderate" about it because that would be discarding half of the book. At the same time I also know the Bible is flooded with a lot of sexism and violence as well, which is why we here at FJ disagree with the fundie lifestyle and Christian Fundamentalists. I know a lot of people who claim to be Muslim are not horrible people and are probably just like everyone else. However, I would question their actual belief in the Quran. I just can't see how someone who agrees or sympathizes with that hideous book to be a decent human.  

I know a lot of people here will disagree with me and this is okay but please do not accuse me of being ignorant because I am not on this subject. A few years ago I read the Bible, Quran and Book of Mormon because I am very interested in religion. 

That is a good observation. 

Now, I know many Christians dont really follow the old testament because Jesus washed away all the sins and kind of voided the old testament. That isn't an exact interpretation of it but.. you get the general idea of what I'm saying I hope. 

Is it possible that the same thing happens with the Quran? Though Islam doesn't have a savior like Christianity does.. if I recall correctly they just have prophets. 

[crazysnark]

16 minutes ago, OldFadedStar said:

That is a good observation. 

Now, I know many Christians dont really follow the old testament because Jesus washed away all the sins and kind of voided the old testament. That isn't an exact interpretation of it but.. you get the general idea of what I'm saying I hope. 

Is it possible that the same thing happens with the Quran? Though Islam doesn't have a savior like Christianity does.. if I recall correctly they just have prophets. 

Yes the majority of the violence, slavery and rape is in the Old Testament but the New Testament isn't shy about women being second class citizens and slaves to obey their masters. This would have been a perfect time for Jesus to say "It is wrong to own people as property" but he doesn't. But yes you are correct the Quran has no "old law" everything in it applies today. 

[season of life]

@crazysnark, I am Muslim and have been raised by homophobic, racist parents. It took me some time to figure out what I wanted to do religion wise. I would describe myself as Muslim, but I make no excuses for the disgusting things said in the Quran. I only follow the parts that improve my life and tell me to be good to others. There is a big homophobia problem in the Turkmen Muslim community and if you try to question the conservative beliefs, like me and my sister tried to do, you get shot down. I think people need to call out the radical Muslims, but moderates have to stop making excuses for the evil ones that are obviously a part of Islam.

[Elvis Presby]

2 hours ago, crazysnark said:

I know I am about to get teared apart for this but I have read the Quran and it is the most awful belief system. It's depictions of hell make the Bible look like a children's book, the treatment of women is deplorable and it DOES encourage the murder of non believers. I don't see how any one can agree with that belief system and be "moderate" about it because that would be discarding half of the book. At the same time I also know the Bible is flooded with a lot of sexism and violence as well, which is why we here at FJ disagree with the fundie lifestyle and Christian Fundamentalists. I know a lot of people who claim to be Muslim are not horrible people and are probably just like everyone else. However, I would question their actual belief in the Quran. I just can't see how someone who agrees or sympathizes with that hideous book to be a decent human.  

I know a lot of people here will disagree with me and this is okay but please do not accuse me of being ignorant because I am not on this subject. A few years ago I read the Bible, Quran and Book of Mormon because I am very interested in religion. 

Lately I have been wanting to read the Quran myself.  My husband has a degree in religious studies and many times he has told me that the Quran states that there are only 3 things that can be done with infidels: convert, enslave, or kill.  Like most other people, I know Muslim families, and they have never attempted to do any of these things to me.  This does make me wonder if they actually follow the Quran or view it as more of a figurative teaching.  Of course, I work in a Christian preschool, and the Muslims I see regularly are sending their kids to the preschool where I work.  One family is very strict about not letting their child have any pork (so no gummy worms or marshmallows) and the other family doesn't mind if their children eat pork or pork products.  Anyway, I have been thinking about this lately and wonder if there is something similar to what is in the bible about having freedom in Christ that makes one family think that marshmallows are ok.  Kind of like how some christians think alcohol is a no no and others think it is AOK.

[boxerlover24]

3 hours ago, crazysnark said:

I know I am about to get teared apart for this but I have read the Quran and it is the most awful belief system. It's depictions of hell make the Bible look like a children's book, the treatment of women is deplorable and it DOES encourage the murder of non believers. I don't see how any one can agree with that belief system and be "moderate" about it because that would be discarding half of the book. At the same time I also know the Bible is flooded with a lot of sexism and violence as well, which is why we here at FJ disagree with the fundie lifestyle and Christian Fundamentalists. I know a lot of people who claim to be Muslim are not horrible people and are probably just like everyone else. However, I would question their actual belief in the Quran. I just can't see how someone who agrees or sympathizes with that hideous book to be a decent human.  

I know a lot of people here will disagree with me and this is okay but please do not accuse me of being ignorant because I am not on this subject. A few years ago I read the Bible, Quran and Book of Mormon because I am very interested in religion. 

I agree with you. I'm sorry but I side eye any hardcore faithful Muslims JUST like I do any super faithful Christians. The rules of Islam are NOT compatible with Western culture.  I also feel like Muslims have been extremely quiet on denouncing homophobia/ radicals ect. I think SOME groups wouldn't actively harm 'infidels/ non believers' but absolutely turn a blind eye to other groups doing it. Then you have your small groups that actively denounce it, but they aren't very many considering how many muslims there are. 

I don't think you are ignorant. I think you are realistic.  I view hardcore Muslims ( those who take the Quran verbatim) the same way I view hardcore Christians- scary, unhinged, and nobody I want around me or making laws ect. Radical religion scares the shit our of me as a woman and I want nothing to do with any of it. 

I will also say I live in a super diverse area and know plenty of Muslims by birth who all tend to be non practicing and are very nice people.

[foreign fundie]

Not defending Derrick because I don't know what he means.

Christian and Muslim terrorist are certainly equally bad. However, there is a difference.

Mohammed was historically a murderous warlord, who called his followers to war against all those who did/do not convert. So even though many nice Muslims may live peacefully, the terrorists do in fact follow their prophet faithfully.

Jesus called to peace, chose to be tortured and murdered rather than to fight back and told his disciples to follow his example and love their enemies. Christian terrorists go against all that Christ was and taught and do not faithfully follow their Lord.

So in a way Christian terrorists are worse. They have been given an example of ultimate goodness but abuse the name of their Lord by using it to justify their evil (think IRA or attact on abortion clinics). Muslim terrorists simply follow Muhammed. At least they are faithful to their leader. 

Fortunately the (sadly often silent) majority of muslims are normal people who would never kill others. But in my opinion, that is not thanks to Muhammed, but to their own well-functioning inner moral compass. My heart brakes for the many Muslim parents in the West who have lived peaceful lives but now see their children radicalise. What can they do? Radical groups are far more vocal than moderates. 

[OrchidBlossom]

As someone who has read the Bible and the Quran I am not really any more offended or upset by one than the other.  In my opinion both say some terrible things, both support some terrible things, and both have extremely tolerant followers, both have "middle of the road" followers, and both have extreme followers.

Although, as an atheist, I'm not particularly partial to any religious text. But I do find the topics very interesting, which is why I have read a wide variety. I also know a pretty diverse group of believers (from Muslims to Christians, Catholics to Jehovah's Witnesses, a few hasidic Jewish people and even a Scientologist) and I don't think any one group seems to have more hateful people than any other, from my population sample. I mean I know more hateful Christians than Muslims but only because I know more Christians. 

[Imagine20]

Learning the true meaning of the Quran takes fluency in both Arab history of the mid-600s and in the Arabic language.  It's this something you possess @crazysnark?  Or did you read a translation of a translation of a translation of Arabic?  I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Since you're such a scholar, I'm sure you're also familiar with the various Muslim sects, their differences, and their varied interpretation of Sharia, sunnah, and the Quran as a whole. 

The only person who can honestly debate the Quran are Arabic scholars who can read the book in it's true original language. A lot is added and left out of translations. 

@crazysnark I urge you to find an imam and speak directly with him if you honestly want to learn about the Quran.

If you don't have a real want to learn about the religion, then I would prefer if you just tell us all what you think of Muslims and get it over with.  Don't hide behind your hand picked knowledge of a Quran translation to say what you really mean. 

[Imagine20]

1 hour ago, foreign fundie said:

Not defending Derrick because I don't know what he means.

Christian and Muslim terrorist are certainly equally bad. However, there is a difference.

Mohammed was historically a murderous warlord, who called his followers to war against all those who did/do not convert. So even though many nice Muslims may live peacefully, the terrorists do in fact follow their prophet faithfully.

Jesus called to peace, chose to be tortured and murdered rather than to fight back and told his disciples to follow his example and love their enemies. Christian terrorists go against all that Christ was and taught and do not faithfully follow their Lord.

So in a way Christian terrorists are worse. They have been given an example of ultimate goodness but abuse the name of their Lord by using it to justify their evil (think IRA or attact on abortion clinics). Muslim terrorists simply follow Muhammed. At least they are faithful to their leader. 

Fortunately the (sadly often silent) majority of muslims are normal people who would never kill others. But in my opinion, that is not thanks to Muhammed, but to their own well-functioning inner moral compass. My heart brakes for the many Muslim parents in the West who have lived peaceful lives but now see their children radicalise. What can they do? Radical groups are far more vocal than moderates. 

Muslims believe in Jesus, too. Everything he taught is part of Islam. Have you read the Quran and based all of your views on that, or have you also read the sunnah and hadith? 

[EmCatlyn]

52 minutes ago, Imagine20 said:

Learning the true meaning of the Quran takes fluency in both Arab history of the mid-600s and in the Arabic language.  It's this something you possess @crazysnark?  Or did you read a translation of a translation of a translation of Arabic?  I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Since you're such a scholar, I'm sure you're also familiar with the various Muslim sects, their differences, and their varied interpretation of Sharia, sunnah, and the Quran as a whole. 

The only person who can honestly debate the Quran are Arabic scholars who can read the book in it's true original language. A lot is added and left out of translations. 

@crazysnark I urge you to find an imam and speak directly with him if you honestly want to learn about the Quran.

If you don't have a real want to learn about the religion, then I would prefer if you just tell us all what you think of Muslims and get it over with.  Don't hide behind your hand picked knowledge of a Quran translation to say what you really mean. 

Your claims that only scholars can really understand the Quran and that if one wants to learn about Islam one should consult an imam instead of a translation of the Quran raise all kinds of problems, not the least of which is that not all imams agree.  

Another problem is that while translation is never exact, some of us would prefer to risk an unbiased translator's error over the interpretations of a potentially biased religious person. If I were considering converting to Islam, I would indeed consult an Imam... But if I just wanted to learn about what the Quran has to say, I would consult a couple of different translations, check out some commentary in a language I can understand, and get a general idea from there.  

That being said, I agree that to describe the Quran (or any other holy book) in purely negative terms is a mistake.  I don't claim to have read all (or even most) of the Quran, but the bits I have read contain wisdom, interesting stories and ideas that I find disturbing (and wrong) in more-or-less equal measure. 

You are right to caution people against biased and/or flawed translations.  Poetry is not the only thing that is lost in translation.

[Ungodly Grandma]

12 hours ago, anotherone said:

As the saying goes, if you don't have anything nice to say, be quiet.  I want to add, if you do have something nice to say, then actually just come right out and say it, don't give those ambiguous statements that can be misinterpreted by absolutely everyone.

I like this one. 

"If you don't have anything nice to say, come sit by me."

Fits our snark level.

 

[VelociRapture]

7 hours ago, foreign fundie said:

Not defending Derrick because I don't know what he means.

Christian and Muslim terrorist are certainly equally bad. However, there is a difference.

Mohammed was historically a murderous warlord, who called his followers to war against all those who did/do not convert. So even though many nice Muslims may live peacefully, the terrorists do in fact follow their prophet faithfully.

Jesus called to peace, chose to be tortured and murdered rather than to fight back and told his disciples to follow his example and love their enemies. Christian terrorists go against all that Christ was and taught and do not faithfully follow their Lord.

So in a way Christian terrorists are worse. They have been given an example of ultimate goodness but abuse the name of their Lord by using it to justify their evil (think IRA or attact on abortion clinics). Muslim terrorists simply follow Muhammed. At least they are faithful to their leader. 

Fortunately the (sadly often silent) majority of muslims are normal people who would never kill others. But in my opinion, that is not thanks to Muhammed, but to their own well-functioning inner moral compass. My heart brakes for the many Muslim parents in the West who have lived peaceful lives but now see their children radicalise. What can they do? Radical groups are far more vocal than moderates. 

Some Historians believe that Jesus comes across much more peaceful than he may have intended due to the great Diaspora of the Jewish people. You have to remember the historical and cultural context of when Jesus would have been alive - he was living under an oppressive Roman regime and he grew up in an area that was a hotspot for violent anti-Roman sentiments. He likely would have heard about travesties commited by the Empire and anti-Roman hate speech on a regular basis. Many people had tried raising rebellions against the Romans before and they all failed horribly. It's very likely that he may not have been as warlike as Muhammad was - but, again, you need to look at the historical and cultural contexts in which they lived. You can't judge a man who lived 2,000 years ago by modern standards (his followers are, of course, another matter.)

Here's an article you may find interesting (I did.) I'd be curious to get your opinion on it if you have time - if not no worries.

http://www.realclearreligion.org/articles/2014/04/30/the_myth_of_a_non-violent_jesus.html

I think a massive issue with both religious books is how open they can be to interpretation. You have people of both faiths pointing to the same passages and stating it clearly means X, while others see Y or Z or Q. And, as you said, radicals are oftentimes the most vocal about their beliefs - that's as true for Christians as it is for Muslims. 

[anotherone]

You can get around the peaceful Jesus thing by just following the Old Testament. 

So my question is, I thought "Christian" meant a follower of Christ.  And wasn't he New Testament?  So why do those fundies seem to follow the fire and brimstone, mean vengeful God, kind of things you see in the OT?  I never understood that.

[crazysnark]

7 hours ago, Imagine20 said:

Learning the true meaning of the Quran takes fluency in both Arab history of the mid-600s and in the Arabic language.  It's this something you possess @crazysnark?  Or did you read a translation of a translation of a translation of Arabic?  I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Since you're such a scholar, I'm sure you're also familiar with the various Muslim sects, their differences, and their varied interpretation of Sharia, sunnah, and the Quran as a whole. 

The only person who can honestly debate the Quran are Arabic scholars who can read the book in it's true original language. A lot is added and left out of translations. 

@crazysnark I urge you to find an imam and speak directly with him if you honestly want to learn about the Quran.

If you don't have a real want to learn about the religion, then I would prefer if you just tell us all what you think of Muslims and get it over with.  Don't hide behind your hand picked knowledge of a Quran translation to say what you really mean. 

I never claimed to be a scholar, I just said I wasn't ignorant like so many say when you criticize Islam. Yes I did read a translation of a translation just like the Bible is a translation of a translation. I have no interest in learning Arabic, Hebrew or Greek nor do I need someone to manipulate me into thinking the way they want me to think about their "Holy Book". All I am saying is the "translation" I have read about the Quran and a lot of the bible is disgusting and deplorable, and I have every right to think this way.  

[barbecutie]

On 6/13/2016 at 9:28 PM, theinvisiblegirl said:

Derick, buddy, if she is pregnant, didn't you technically just announce it there? "Not sure yet" - either she's pregnant and they don't know when to announce because Zika, or he poorly worded what should have been "Well, we aren't pregnant so there's nothing to announce!"

Considering how confused everyone is about his comment on "radical jihadists" I'm going with Jill isn't preggos, and he's just terrible at arranging words into coherent sentences. 

EDIT: Upon reading the tweet, it does come across as that they are "trying" but again, Derrick is not the best with words.