Jill, Derick and Israel- Part 16

[Buzzard]

29 minutes ago, Fundie Bunny said:

Here we have identification cards. It has your picture, your social security number, official sex... Now they are working on a new model in which the chip will identificate your driving license

 

NATIONAL IDENTIFICATION! ZOMG NO, ITS IS THE END OF TIMES! 

[imokit]

The UK doesn't have residence registration.  You're encouraged to register with a local doctor and the electoral commission  (for voting) but neither is required legally.

Births are registered within 6 weeks. At a local council office.  A parent needs to be there (both if they're unmarried), baby doesn't need to come.  I don't know how adoption effects birth certificates, but I've seen letters of parental responsibility for children who've been adopted/are in foster care they prove that that grown up can consent to medical treatment for them. 

[justoneoftwo]

21 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

 am curious why the fact that your husband did not have birth parent infomation should have been a problem with the bar.  Did the birth certificate indicate it had been "ammended" and was it concern about false identity that caused the problem?

The birth certificate says it is amended, it also is the size of a business card and laminated.  Basically because it is amended it looks nothing like a birth certificate (I don't know why that state does it that way).  Basically every time he needs to use it explanations are required.  With the bar, it meant that he had been "involved" in a legal case he had not told them the information about (he was adopted at 3 or 4) and they wanted documents from the case because of that.  

[EmCatlyn]

42 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

The birth certificate says it is amended, it also is the size of a business card and laminated.  Basically because it is amended it looks nothing like a birth certificate (I don't know why that state does it that way).  Basically every time he needs to use it explanations are required.  With the bar, it meant that he had been "involved" in a legal case he had not told them the information about (he was adopted at 3 or 4) and they wanted documents from the case because of that.  

That is interesting.  It would seem that in that state at least the purpose of amending the birth certificate is not to make the adopted child blend in better.

[anotherone]

One more idea to throw in the mix.  We're aware that the "father" listed on the BC may not be the genetic father, he could have just been the married to the woman giving birth when the BC was filled out.  But often people may feel that the "mother" listed was always correct because someone actually watched her give birth.  But nowadays the woman giving birth may not even be the genetic mother.  Sarah Jessica Parker is one who used a surrogate.  If she did it through IVF (SJP and her husband's embryos), then at the hospital, should they list SJP or the surrogate as the "mother?"  Surrogate gave birth, but the baby isn't really "hers."  What about those who used donor eggs?  They are the ones giving birth and if they didn't publicize it, no one would be the wiser.  Should  they have all the information to give the child later on life, so they know who their genetic mother is?  Some don't think so, they say the woman giving birth is the mother, end of story. 

There is so much more to it that it's simplistic to imply the birthing woman is the only one worthy of being on the BC.  There are so many cases where it's not even crystal clear who the mother is. 

Edited to add:  Most of the time donor egg "mothers" don't want to be found either.  Agencies promise the donors complete confidentiality.  There seems to be a stigma against giving away your genetic material along the same lines as adoption.

[caszandra]

1 hour ago, imokit said:

The UK doesn't have residence registration.  You're encouraged to register with a local doctor and the electoral commission  (for voting) but neither is required legally.

Births are registered within 6 weeks. At a local council office.  A parent needs to be there (both if they're unmarried), baby doesn't need to come.  I don't know how adoption effects birth certificates, but I've seen letters of parental responsibility for children who've been adopted/are in foster care they prove that that grown up can consent to medical treatment for them. 

Will add that births in Scotland have to be registered within 21 days of birth.

[browncoatslytherin]

"those of us who work with them every day appreciate amended ones because they make our life easier"

Perhaps it should not be about making your lives easier;

nice job cutting off the last part of that quote. why don't you fully quote me? oh yeah, because that would mean your response means you don't give a flip about making the child's life easier.

look, everyone has rehashed this with you and explained shit from here to yon, just admit you don't know what you're talking about and you painted yourself into a corner and now are just refusing to give up.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

6 hours ago, Buzzard said:

 

NATIONAL IDENTIFICATION! ZOMG NO, ITS IS THE END OF TIMES! 

This is something I can't understand. What's the problem if your (general, not meaning you Buzzard) State recognises your existence as a person entitled to rights? Because that's what an ID is: a statement of the State that recognises your existence and your identity with the main goal to protect it, to protect you and to grant your rights. What is so threatening about this concept? 

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

This is something I can't understand. What's the problem if your (general, not meaning you Buzzard) State recognises your existence as a person entitled to rights? Because that's what an ID is: a statement of the State that recognises your existence and your identity with the main goal to protect it, to protect you and to grant your rights. What is so threatening about this concept? 

I saw the card posted upthread. While it seems like a practical idea, it would never work in the US- having all that identifying information on 1 card that I'm assuming is supposed to be carried around at all times, would be a criminal's delight. Is ID theft an issue?

[laPapessaGiovanna]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

I saw the card posted upthread. While it seems like a practical idea, it would never work in the US- having all that identifying information on 1 card that I'm assuming is supposed to be carried around at all times, would be a criminal's delight. Is ID theft an issue?

Not really. As soon as you lose it or someone steals it from your wallet you immediately go to the Carabinieri to denounce the theft, this immediately invalidates the ID you've lost/was stolen. With a copy of the denounce you go to your local council offices and they make you a new one immediately. It's more complicated for the driving licence (that also lists all your data and is accepted as an ID too if not otherwise specified) because after denouncing the theft you have to wait 20 days to have a new one. In both cases you pay a fee to have the new document,  iirc 5 € for the ID, a bit more for the driving licence. 

BTW thieves aren't interested in useless stolen documents, they steal wallets and purses for the money not for the documents. It's much more probable that they do try to steal your on line identities and passwords to steal from your bank account,  that's a serious problem. 

ETA Anyway you aren't supposed to always carry an ID, only if you need it. If you are taking a walk you need nothing.  But if you're driving you need your driving licence, if you are going to an office/bank/service were you need to fill and sign paperwork you need your ID, if you are going to stay in a hotel you need your ID etc.

Now I am curious though, why do you think in the USA this sort of document would be problematic and even a criminal's delight? 

[Ungodly Grandma]

22 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

Now I am curious though, why do you think in the USA this sort of document would be problematic and even a criminal's delight? 

I think the idea of registering every time you move would make many Americans nuts. Loss of personal freedom or something. I have been living in the same town since 1979, so it doesn't matter to me.  And it seems as if it might enable identity theft. I am no expert, so maybe not. Just throwing out ideas. Instead of cleaning the porch, as I should be doing!

[2manyKidzzz]

Many years ago, many, I moved from Indiana to Arlington VA. So, in Indiana at that time you went in and paid cash for your vehicle license plate, every year I think, and got a new plate. At that time, no inspections, no county sticker, nuthin else. 

Sooooo, in Arlington, there was a state sticker, a license plate with that sticker, I guess and a county sticker and maybe also an inspection sticker.

So, I would think I had accomplished everything and then was pulled over and I would say WHHAAAAAT? It was funny, but it did cost me money at first. I was annoyed because apparently it took me awhile to catch on. 

[season of life]

Hell's bells, patsymae, who got your panties in such a huge bunch that you had to inflame people on here?

[SassyPants]

I remember in the 1990s we had this group of Russian doctors who came to work for a short time in our local Children's Hospital. They asked us (nurses in the ICU), what kind of papers they needed to travel on the train to a city about 20 miles away. *Eye opener* for us, for sure. Upon return to Russia, 2 of those physicians committed suicide.

 

 

1 hour ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

Many years ago, many, I moved from Indiana to Arlington VA. So, in Indiana at that time you went in and paid cash for your vehicle license plate, every year I think, and got a new plate. At that time, no inspections, no county sticker, nuthin else. 

Sooooo, in Arlington, there was a state sticker, a license plate with that sticker, I guess and a county sticker and maybe also an inspection sticker.

So, I would think I had accomplished everything and then was pulled over and I would say WHHAAAAAT? It was funny, but it did cost me money at first. I was annoyed because apparently it took me awhile to catch on. 

We lived in Chicago for a couple of years (2008-2010), we never changed our CA DLs or car reg- of course we also maintained a home in CA too, so maybe that made things different? My husband has lived all over the country, while also maintaining CA residency. Must people would ditch anything to do with CA because it's so much more expensive, but we are from here and knew that we wanted to retire here, so getting out was never an option. Once you leave CA, it's hard to get back in.

2 hours ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

Not really. As soon as you lose it or someone steals it from your wallet you immediately go to the Carabinieri to denounce the theft, this immediately invalidates the ID you've lost/was stolen. With a copy of the denounce you go to your local council offices and they make you a new one immediately. It's more complicated for the driving licence (that also lists all your data and is accepted as an ID too if not otherwise specified) because after denouncing the theft you have to wait 20 days to have a new one. In both cases you pay a fee to have the new document,  iirc 5 € for the ID, a bit more for the driving licence. 

BTW thieves aren't interested in useless stolen documents, they steal wallets and purses for the money not for the documents. It's much more probable that they do try to steal your on line identities and passwords to steal from your bank account,  that's a serious problem. 

ETA Anyway you aren't supposed to always carry an ID, only if you need it. If you are taking a walk you need nothing.  But if you're driving you need your driving licence, if you are going to an office/bank/service were you need to fill and sign paperwork you need your ID, if you are going to stay in a hotel you need your ID etc.

Now I am curious though, why do you think in the USA this sort of document would be problematic and even a criminal's delight? 

Identity theft- It's a huge problem.

[2manyKidzzz]

@SassyPants. Two of the doctors committed suicide......to what do you attribute this, or are you just not sure....it sounds very sad. To become a doctor and then give up your life. Sad. 

[Shadoewolf]

Some US states on the Canadian border now have "enhanced" drivers licenses which have the chip embedded, it also serves as mini-passport and has everything about you contained on the chip. Kinda scary!

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

@SassyPants. Two of the doctors committed suicide......to what do you attribute this, or are you just not sure....it sounds very sad. To become a doctor and then give up your life. Sad. 

Oppression- at least that's what I think.

 

[2manyKidzzz]

7 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Oppression- at least that's what I think.

 

Makes sense.....the contrast between the US and their situation must have really struck them. 

[CharlieInCharge]

Back on the adoption topic for a second - someone unthread mentioned that social media might be a good way for adoptees to find birth parents. But how does that work? Would someone just post to their friends (only their own info obviously, not pulling a Jill) and hope it goes viral? Or is it like FB groups you can join? I'm asking because this is actually something I'm involved in right now and I have pretty much 0 social media presence. I tried the GoogleGod, but I got a bit intimidated. Thanks to anyone who might know!

And feel free to message me since I know this is a very personal process

[laPapessaGiovanna]

5 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Identity theft- It's a huge problem.

I can understand you are scared of identity theft, but I don't understand how it can happen from simply stealing documents. I mean, as I explained, here if you are robbed of your documents you can immediately invalidate them and they become useless on the spot (and whoever is caught trying to use them can be arrested). Also on the documents there aren't any secrets or particularly sensitive data. Our "codice fiscale" isn't a random number, it's calculated on the basis of your whole name, birth date and birth place. There are entire websites dedicated to calculate it on the simple basis of these data, I can calculate the code of any famous people who has a Wikipedia page, but it would be useless because I wouldn't be able to do anything with it alone, it needs to be accompanied by a set of valid documents. 

I'd love to understand why you would fear an identity theft because as I tried to explain I have difficulties not knowing how it works in the USA and here being so different.

7 hours ago, Ungodly Grandma said:

I think the idea of registering every time you move would make many Americans nuts. Loss of personal freedom or something. I have been living in the same town since 1979, so it doesn't matter to me.  And it seems as if it might enable identity theft. I am no expert, so maybe not. Just throwing out ideas. Instead of cleaning the porch, as I should be doing!

I haven't explained well. If you move often you can keep your residence in a place (ie your parents home) and just move your "domicilio" that means you go to the NHS offices to be assigned a GP where you actually live. This is important because GP visits are free while you have to pay a fee if you go to the ER for a minor thing. But I can understand it's not a problem if you don't have a NHS. Or you can just move without registering anything but then no GP. Not moving your residency can be a problem though, because important communication from the State are usually sent to your residency address. 

[CharlieInCharge]

Just some USA examples of possible identity theft:

Stolen tax form can be used to file for a tax refund.

Stolen Social Security card could be used to open bank accounts or get credit cards. 

Stolen drivers license could be used to create fake business or residential accounts (utilities).

Are all these likely every time someone loses an ID? No, but they are possibilities and that creates fear and anxiety for people.

 

[MatthewDuggar]

6 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I remember in the 1990s we had this group of Russian doctors who came to work for a short time in our local Children's Hospital. They asked us (nurses in the ICU), what kind of papers they needed to travel on the train to a city about 20 miles away. *Eye opener* for us, for sure. Upon return to Russia, 2 of those physicians committed suicide.

 

 

We lived in Chicago for a couple of years (2008-2010), we never changed our CA DLs or car reg- of course we also maintained a home in CA too, so maybe that made things different? My husband has lived all over the country, while also maintaining CA residency. Must people would ditch anything to do with CA because it's so much more expensive, but we are from here and knew that we wanted to retire here, so getting out was never an option. Once you leave CA, it's hard to get back in.

Identity theft- It's a huge problem.

Really?  I've never heard this before?  Why would it be so hard to move back to CA?

[laPapessaGiovanna]

5 minutes ago, CharlieInCharge said:

Just some USA examples of possible identity theft:

Stolen tax form can be used to file for a tax refund.

Stolen Social Security card could be used to open bank accounts or get credit cards. 

Stolen drivers license could be used to create fake business or residential accounts (utilities).

Are all these likely every time someone loses an ID? No, but they are possibilities and that creates fear and anxiety for people.

 

Can't you invalidate your stolen documents so that the thieves can't use them? 

 

Once I looked up an American citizen (my father cousin) name on the Internet because I was curious about his business. In 2 minutes I found exactly where he lives, who he knows, what car model he drives, its licence plate, phone numbers and even eventual judicial records (that aren't accessible from outside the USA, at least that). If you Google my name you can't find anything of the above. Isn't your data being plastered all over the Internet a much bigger security problem? 

[CharlieInCharge]

@laPapessaGiovanna

The tax forms are difficult to invalidate and that's assuming you find out it was stolen before it gets used. 

Social security numbers are meant to follow you through life - you can change your name more easily than your SS#.

Drivers license can be invalidated, but that doesn't affect the information listed on the card.

Your father's cousin has a business and I imagine that has resulted in more of his info online. I could give you my name right now and you wouldn't find much cause I'm not a big presence online. I've googled myself a few times and all my results are pushed down by a dentist who shares my name.  

I hope this explains (USA) people's worries a bit better

[MatthewDuggar]

I'm not an identity theft expert, but it seems that the majority of cases I hear about on the news (in the US) have happened when people are scammed into giving out credit card, social security and drivers license numbers to people posing as some sort of authority on the phone or computer.  The elderly are a huge target.  Or, that information gets skimmed from kiosks or store card readers.  

The fact that we don't have a residential registration of sorts can cause issues in other ways.  I worked at the "Happiest Place On Earth" for a brief period and in order to get discounted "Florida Resident" tickets, you simply had to have a valid Florida Drivers license.  Of course there are plenty of people that either don't drive, or perhaps live in another state for part of the year.  Then they have to supply, mortgage papers, utility bills or mail with a Florida address at least 2 months old.  Even this would cause issues at times.  I personally can't imagine living in a place and not having any of this information, but it happens.