What a thing to burden your 9 year old with - Nina Roesner

[celestial]

ninaroesner.wordpress.com/2011/05/13/whats-the-point/

When you are talking or playing with your friends, do you want their brothers thinking that way about you? When you are around boys in class, do you want them wondering what you look like naked, or do you want them to listen to what you have to say?

Seriously not something a 9 year old should have to worry about.

(On a personal side note, I've been away from FJ for a long while because I was in a bad car accident and in the hospital. It's good to be back!)

[keen23]

A 9 year old, no, should not be worrying about these things.

However, at 16, I totally wanted to know what boys in class wondered what I looked like naked...I think that's the point of dating, isn't it? To try and meet interesting people and then get naked with them?

[Beeks]

I'm not sure how I feel about this. I was a mature 9-yr-old and would have appreciated a frank discussion of the rules. And spaghetti tops CAN be super sexy/revealing. I'm not sure I'd let my 9yr old wear one.

Glad you are ok and out of the hospital, btw!

[fundiefan]

When you fill your kid's head with sex and perversion, that's what they think of. When you leave them alone to be growing human beings, chances are that a nine year old doesn't 'go there'.

It's completely crazy - in the literal sense - to make children aware of such things when they are children. Living and learning and growing teaches human beings about sex, modesty, boys vs girls, their own bodies, etc... To drill it into them from the age of two is sick.

I, sadly, often remember Zsu's six year old son freaking the fuck out at the library because he saw a two year old's underwear. There is nothing right or decent or healthy about that.

Some nine year old's may be at the point of curiosity and self awareness, but they are not born to be sexual perverts.

If I knew a nine year old worried about anything sexual, I would encourage counseling and some real help.

It ain't right. It just ain't right.

[Beeks]

When you fill your kid's head with sex and perversion, that's what they think of. When you leave them alone to be growing human beings, chances are that a nine year old doesn't 'go there'.

It's completely crazy - in the literal sense - to make children aware of such things when they are children. Living and learning and growing teaches human beings about sex, modesty, boys vs girls, their own bodies, etc... To drill it into them from the age of two is sick.

I, sadly, often remember Zsu's six year old son freaking the fuck out at the library because he saw a two year old's underwear. There is nothing right or decent or healthy about that.

Some nine year old's may be at the point of curiosity and self awareness, but they are not born to be sexual perverts.

If I knew a nine year old worried about anything sexual, I would encourage counseling and some real help.

It ain't right. It just ain't right.

Really? We started sex ed in school around age 10. We learned how our bodies worked and also about sex. I really don't think 9-10 is too young or that it's insane to make children aware. I think it's kind of smart, actually.

[fundiefan]

I guess it comes down to experience then. I got sex ed in Jr. High, which was about 11 or 12. I was taught about my OWN body by my family before then, but I wasn't taught to be ashamed or embarrassed or make the opposite sex my focus until...well, actually, I was never taught that.

Being aware of your own body and how life works is one thing. Making a nine year old freak out or concerned with being perceived as 'sexual' is another.

[celestial]

Being aware of your own body and how life works is one thing. Making a nine year old freak out or concerned with being perceived as 'sexual' is another.

:clap:

[MamaJunebug]

Celestial, I'm so gladto know you're ok!!

For thoseof us afflicted w smartphones, it's now good to post links thusly

ninaroesner.wordpress.com/2011/05/13/whats-the-point/

We all can just copy and paste that into the browser bar and get there undetected.

Anyhow....

I went ahead & did that in hopes others will visit Nina's blog and see if that "conversation" w her 9-year-old strikes them as it did me. That's all I'll say about it for now, as I'm truly interested in responses.

Kthxndvncbai!!

And again, welcome back, celestial!

[celestial]

Celestial, I'm so gladto know you're ok!!

For thoseof us afflicted w smartphones, it's now good to post links thusly

ninaroesner.wordpress.com/2011/05/13/whats-the-point/

We all can just copy and paste that into the browser bar and get there undetected.

Anyhow....

I went ahead & did that in hopes others will visit Nina's blog and see if that "conversation" w her 9-year-old strikes them as it did me. That's all I'll say about it for now, as I'm truly interested in responses.

Kthxndvncbai!!

And again, welcome back, celestial!

Thanks so much! I'll be sure to do that to the links from now on, too.

[AnnoDomini]

A 9 year old, no, should not be worrying about these things.

However, at 16, I totally wanted to know what boys in class wondered what I looked like naked...I think that's the point of dating, isn't it? To try and meet interesting people and then get naked with them?

And here other people were telling me the point of dating was to 'get to know other people'. Everyone trying to persuade me to take up dating swears dating isn't 'about' getting to the point where you get naked, but evidently when people get their guard down, that is what dating's all about.

[VodouDoll]

Well, it is if that's what you both want to do. If you don't want to get naked, then that's not what dating is about for you. Everyone is responsible for setting their own boundaries and goals.

[dianapavelovna]

So it's okay to make boys think about you naked when you're doing gymnastics? Or does she go to a segregated gym?

:roll:

I have no patience for this particular line of reasoning.

[Guest Anonymous]

I was around 12 or 13 when I first heard the argument that I should be careful because I wouldn't want boys to think about me "that way" or imagine me naked. My reaction was, "Huh? What do I care what some boy is imagining or not about me? If he wants to have some sexual fantasy about me, it doesn't matter to me. His thoughts are his business."

Of course, I might have added, "As long as he doesn't act like a jerk towards me." In this woman's world, however, it is impossible for a man to have a respect for a woman whom he views in a sexual light. She asks whether you want the boys imagining you naked or listening to what you have say -- a false dichotomy if I ever heard one. Sexism and misogyny are the only things preventing some men and boys from listening to what a woman has to say once he has lustful thoughts about her. Hell, I've been known to picture men naked in my mind and I'm still capable of, you know, treating them with respect.

[fundiefan]

I was around 12 or 13 when I first heard the argument that I should be careful because I wouldn't want boys to think about me "that way" or imagine me naked. My reaction was, "Huh? What do I care what some boy is imagining or not about me? If he wants to have some sexual fantasy about me, it doesn't matter to me. His thoughts are his business."

Of course, I might have added, "As long as he doesn't act like a jerk towards me." In this woman's world, however, it is impossible for a man to have a respect for a woman whom he views in a sexual light. She asks whether you want the boys imagining you naked or listening to what you have say -- a false dichotomy if I ever heard one. Sexism and misogyny are the only things preventing some men and boys from listening to what a woman has to say once he has lustful thoughts about her. Hell, I've been known to picture men naked in my mind and I'm still capable of, you know, treating them with respect.

I wonder if her husband listens to her, or if she's questioning whether he does or not? Since he's obviously thought of her in a sexual way, that means he is only thinking of sex and not what she says, right?

Actually, as I say that sarcastically, there is probably a grain of truth to it in these circles. Women are good for breeding, not thinking.

[Guest Anonymous]

And here other people were telling me the point of dating was to 'get to know other people'. Everyone trying to persuade me to take up dating swears dating isn't 'about' getting to the point where you get naked, but evidently when people get their guard down, that is what dating's all about.

I'm confused. Are you saying that bunches of people told you something, then one person told you something different, so you've concluded that all the other people were lying? That's black and white fundie thinking, AD. Consider that there's lots of different people in the world, hence, lots of different reasons for dating. I know asexual folks who date, and they aren't doing it in order to get naked, they're doing it to make a mental connection.

When I was dating, I did it to get to know people better. Sometimes that led to getting naked, sometimes it led to making a new friend, and a few times it led to an awkward conversation in which I told someone not to contact me anymore. Anyway, you're like 24 years old, if you do or don't want to date I'm pretty sure that's your business.

[Austin]

Ack. There is absolutely nothing objectively wrong with spaghetti straps on a 9-year-old, for pete's sake. And while natural curiosity exists, I doubt very seriously that 9-year-old boys are constantly imagining what their female counterparts look like naked. I just asked one of 18-year-olds about it and he said:

"At nine, no way. Now? Totally." (he was kidding a little bit :D )

I just go back to what I always say: fundies are obsessed with sex. They see sexuality in four-year-olds pulling their dresses up over their heads (not uncommon at that age), 9-year-olds with spaghetti straps, even girls in typical one-piece swimsuits. What's the point, indeed!

[JesusFightClub]

I am a little atypical in that I started puberty at 9 and began to wonder about such things ;) And I am female, or was last time I checked.

But it seems very wrong to introduce such thoughts/images to a 9yo, and especially to give them the creepy idea that once a member of the opposite sex notices you are visibly female he will cease to respect you. Which is what it all boils down to anyway with fundies.

[Bella99]

Ick, ick, ick! Her Maj just turned 8 - while I don't want her to go around dressing like a miniature floozy, the idea that in one year she should be responsible for what goes on in someone else's head is idiotic.

From personal experience, I can tell you that pretty young women sometimes draw unwelcome attention, even dressed modestly. The answer is to teach the males of the species that leering and catcalling will usually only earn them scorn from the objects of their obnoxiousness.

[Trynn]

From one of the comments:

Her gym clothes became an issue and we ended up with leggings under a skirt that flows.

Seriously? If I'd shown up to gym class like that my teacher would've punished me by making me do laps during gym class and yell "that'll teach you to forget your gym clothes!"

[Austin]

From one of the comments:

Seriously? If I'd shown up to gym class like that my teacher would've punished me by making me do laps during gym class and yell "that'll teach you to forget your gym clothes!"

When I was in school, we wore one-piece jumpsuits that were shorts. They were heinous, but they were also short (it was the 1970s, after all). If you didn't "dress" for gym, you got a zero.

Fundie moms would faint dead away :D

[desertvixen]

When I was dating, I did it to get to know people better. Sometimes that led to getting naked, sometimes it led to making a new friend, and a few times it led to an awkward conversation in which I told someone not to contact me anymore.

I'd say this pretty much sums up the rationale of dating. For me, dating has to have at least the possibility of romance - otherwise it's just a man and woman (for me, anyway) sharing a meal. Which is something else that doesn't get to happen in fundie circles much. I hate the whole idea that men and women can't just have a friendly relationship.

Back to the article, the comments section was a little much, except for whoever Sweet Like Honey is. This one threw me though:

After I stopped taking ballet my mom said several times that she was starting to think even ballet was not something a Christian girl should be involved in. Not only is she dressing with little clothing (tight as well…) but she is constantly in positions that are not modest (ie, constantly hiking a leg to expose her crotch)

If the girl's "crotch" (and I use girl since she is talking about when she was a girl and her own daughter) is what you're focusing on when you see girls doing ballet, the problem - the evil, even - is with you and not them.

[AnnoDomini]

I'm confused. Are you saying that bunches of people told you something, then one person told you something different, so you've concluded that all the other people were lying? That's black and white fundie thinking, AD. Consider that there's lots of different people in the world, hence, lots of different reasons for dating. I know asexual folks who date, and they aren't doing it in order to get naked, they're doing it to make a mental connection.

When I was dating, I did it to get to know people better. Sometimes that led to getting naked, sometimes it led to making a new friend, and a few times it led to an awkward conversation in which I told someone not to contact me anymore. Anyway, you're like 24 years old, if you do or don't want to date I'm pretty sure that's your business.

Lissar, it's ok--I was joking. A very poor attempt, it seems.

[BravaAmica]

http://ninaroesner.wordpress dot com/2011/05/13/whats-the-point/

Seriously not something a 9 year old should have to worry about.

(On a personal side note, I've been away from FJ for a long while because I was in a bad car accident and in the hospital. It's good to be back!)

Holy fucking shit that is one of the most terrifying things I've ever read. That poor girl.

Glad you are out of the hospital and are hopefully on the mend.

[whirlygirly]

Aaarrgghh at this conversation in the comments:

Carol: I completely agree but get very frustrated. Recently Canada has had an upsurge of ‘Slut walks’ woman who are upset over a comment by a police sheriff advising woman to dress more modestly. It is now all about their ‘right’ to dress how they want and men are not animals and should have better ‘control’. It is very sad to hear how little modern woman regard, much less respect, themselves. :(

Heather Lei: Perhaps women should dress more modestly, but immodest dress is not an invitation for an attack. It would be like blaming the clerk at the convenience store for a robbery because he should have known that convenience stores were a prime target for attack. People, of either gender, are responsible for their actions regardless of what thoughts or feelings another person provokes in them.

Nikki: Absolutely, but the Bible also talks about not being the cause of another to sin. Mark 9:42 “And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.

[JesusFightClub]

Aaarrgghh at this conversation in the comments:

Carol: I completely agree but get very frustrated. Recently Canada has had an upsurge of ‘Slut walks’ woman who are upset over a comment by a police sheriff advising woman to dress more modestly. It is now all about their ‘right’ to dress how they want and men are not animals and should have better ‘control’. It is very sad to hear how little modern woman regard, much less respect, themselves. :(

Heather Lei: Perhaps women should dress more modestly, but immodest dress is not an invitation for an attack. It would be like blaming the clerk at the convenience store for a robbery because he should have known that convenience stores were a prime target for attack. People, of either gender, are responsible for their actions regardless of what thoughts or feelings another person provokes in them.

Nikki: Absolutely, but the Bible also talks about not being the cause of another to sin. Mark 9:42 “And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.

Nooooooo! That is not even what that means! *triple headdesk*

You can't cause someone to rape or murder you, or even to think of you in a sexual fashion. That's on them. They don't have to. They want to.

I was always told the sin in this part of the Bible was disbelief, not "not wearing frumpers". Talking someone out of a belief in God, not wearing spaghetti straps and defrauding a rapist.