Tori Bates Courtship

[TuringMachine]

I was under the impression that all of the married Bates' jobs (even the secular seeming ones) were all Gothard approved. Plus doesn't Brandon actually work for ATI or IBLP? 

And @formergothardite brings up a very good point. As much as Jill and Jessa downplay what happened to them, it's got have messed them up. And as for being raised on television, Jacob Roloff has spoken out plenty on how much having been raised on television negatively affected his life.

[Palimpsest]

5 minutes ago, HereticHick said:

Chad's job isn't mysterious and undefined. He works for Noble Metals in Oak Ridge TN, a metal recycler (or "scrap yard" if y'all prefer. I'm not going to knock it, since I am pro-recycling).: http://noblemetalsonline.com/

If you will look at the bottom of Noble Metals homepage, you will notice it was done by his ATI buddy Robert Staddon.

 

[This People magazine article calls Chad the office manager there: http://www.people.com/article/bringing-up-bates-erin-bates-paine-miscarriage]

I stand corrected.   Didn't Zach work there too at one point?  My memory fails me.

Too funny that Robert Staddon did the webpage - methinks that Chad the "office manager" is employed by another IBLP/ATI cult member.

[Palimpsest]

6 minutes ago, TuringMachine said:

I was under the impression that all of the married Bates' jobs (even the secular seeming ones) were all Gothard approved. Plus doesn't Brandon actually work for ATI or IBLP? 

 

Brandon working for IBLP is spelled out right there on the UPTV website in the bios section, if anyone cares to look. 

Quote

Michael Bates (nicknamed Michaella) is the Bates’ firstborn daughter. Michael completed her EMT training and is currently working on completing her associate’s degree through Roane State College. On August 15, 2015 Michael married Brandon Keilen, and the couple moved to Chicago. Brandon graduated from college in November 2014, earning his four-year degree. Currently, Brandon is working with IBLP ministries.

Quote

And @formergothardite brings up a very good point. As much as Jill and Jessa downplay what happened to them, it's got have messed them up. And as for being raised on television, Jacob Roloff has spoken out plenty on how much having been raised on television negatively affected his life.

It has to have had a negative impact on them - the molestation, the cover-up, and the faking of the happy problem free family for TV.  And that doesn't even begin to cover the potential negative effects of being raised in the public eye.  Jacob Roloff has spoken out, good for him, but I expect many more children exploited by their parents and Reality TV will be speaking out in the future.  Sad.

[nelliebelle1197]

On 5/4/2016 at 8:11 PM, NotALoserLikeYou said:

Alright, so this would be Bobby's father:

http://www.primerica.com/public/PrimericaRep?rep=robsmithjr

Mom is Sheri. 

This site lists them as having three kids http://www.genealogy.com/ftm/b/o/w/Paul-S-Bowman-ID/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0053.html

 

 

 

 

His mom looks like his dad in mom drag. I am being serious, kids. And they both look like John Shrader.

[Hisey]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

Josh Duggar actually managed to grab himself a very well paying job with a hate group  FRC before his past and Ashley Madison scuppered that. 

You sound quite impressed with Josh. I'm sure he's glad to have someone on his side.

Sorry it bothers you so much, but I still feel the Bates kids are far healthier than the Duggars.

[nelliebelle1197]

10 hours ago, MsSaylor said:

One favorable thing about the Bates is that the men in all the married couples at least have real jobs-some in the secular world. Whereas none of the Duggars have real jobs. I'm not what that means exactly but it does cause me to view them a bit more favorably. 

Isn't Derrick a missionary? Last time I checked, that was a "real" job. Some people consider it a noble profession. And when is being a reality TV star not a job? And that is about as secular as you can get...

21 hours ago, Hisey said:

It's pretty clear that the Bates have raised happier, healthier children who have gone on to have good marriages. That can co-exist with the fact that both families hold terrible beliefs. Holding a terrible belief doesn't mean you are going to raise children who are exactly the same.

All you have to do is look at Zach/Whitney, or Erin/Chad, or Alyssa/John, and you see young people beaming with happiness and love. Those are good, solid marriages--at least they are now (who knows what will happen in the future). All the menfolk have jobs--to me, that means these guys are more functional. The Bates kids are making decisions that are independent from their family of origin (Alyssa choosing to wear pants, Zach engaging in pre-marital kissing). To me, that's a sign of better mental health.

Compare that to Jessa and Ben. There is so much awkwardness and  uncertainty when they appear on the screen, their laughs are so uncomfortable. As for Jill and Derrick, they also don't seem as happy and content as any of the young married Bates. In fact, Derrick looks terrible--sick and unkempt. 

So, yeah, I think the Bates parents did a better job of raising kids, because their adult kids seem capable of living happy adult lives. That doesn't mean I agree with their beliefs, of course I don't. I think the Bates ended up with happier kids because they were a bit more flexible and less narcissistic in applying their belief system to each kid's situation. I also think that driving around trapped in a bus for weeks on end is bad for any family, and did a lot of damage to the young Duggar kids.

 

Oh dear lord. Alyssa has the approval of her pants approving headship, whose mom wears pants and shorts. His father credits ATI/IBLP/Gothard with his successful life.  FFS.

And YET AGAIN, Zach may have kissed Whitney pre-marriage, but they ran and confessed to Gil and Kelly and god only knows what emotional punishment was meted out. FFS.

[MarblesMom]

On 5/1/2016 at 2:12 PM, BeccaGrim said:

Those poor Duggar boys.  They just can't seem to find a girl. LOL

Maybe the Duggar and Arndt man-boys can co-opt on an E-Harmony account they can check on in the tree house.....

[nelliebelle1197]

10 hours ago, Tomboy said:

Not saying Bobby is perfect but I think it's safe to say that he is a hell lot better than Bin.

Why?

[Hisey]

40 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Isn't Derrick a missionary? Last time I checked, that was a "real" job. Some people consider it a noble profession. And when is being a reality TV star not a job? And that is about as secular as you can get...

Oh dear lord. Alyssa has the approval of her pants approving headship, whose mom wears pants and shorts. His father credits ATI/IBLP/Gothard with his successful life.  FFS.

And YET AGAIN, Zach may have kissed Whitney pre-marriage, but they ran and confessed to Gil and Kelly and god only knows what emotional punishment was meted out. FFS.

Did you think I said Zach was a Bernie Sanders-supporting feminist? I don't expect him to act like a normal person and engage in dating, kissing, etc. I am, however, impressed that he took one baby-step away from his parents' ridiculous rules. And I think that's healthy. 

[Exjw2015deed]

Jeez, it's unfortunate that a lot of people are getting very testy on the bates forums. I say take a break and look at some of the other looney fundie families. At the end of the day we have to remember this is a snark website. 

Whenever I get the hots for Chad, or smile watching this family, I just head right over to recovering grace and curb "my desires that can't be fulfilled." 

The Duggar vs bates debate at this point is moot. There's more evidence pointing that they're, like Jim bob said, a "carbon copy" of the duggars. Just try and remember that. And on the other side it's okay to find them to be endearing but remember not to believe the package that we are being sold and try to educate yourself on their beliefs. That's all.  

 

 

[JillyO]

14 hours ago, Hisey said:

For that matter, you have no idea that they are UNHAPPY (though you seem to wish that). It's all speculation. And my speculation is that the Bates kids are happier.

Take a look at Chad and Derrick and tell me who seems happier and higher functioning.

Exactly. I have no idea what is going on with the Bateses behind closed doors. Which is why I don't go around professing that they are clearly super-unhappy, barely functioning adults who hate their respective spouses. Because I realize I know nothing about the state of their marriages. I certainly don't wish them unhappiness, but thanks for claiming that because I called you out on your leghumping. In fact, I hope they are all very happy, preferably very far away from ATI/IBLP/Gothard/any kind of cult and fundiedom.

[Hisey]

2 hours ago, Exjw2015deed said:

Jeez, it's unfortunate that a lot of people are getting very testy on the bates forums. I say take a break and look at some of the other looney fundie families. At the end of the day we have to remember this is a snark website. 

Whenever I get the hots for Chad, or smile watching this family, I just head right over to recovering grace and curb "my desires that can't be fulfilled." 

The Duggar vs bates debate at this point is moot. There's more evidence pointing that they're, like Jim bob said, a "carbon copy" of the duggars. Just try and remember that. And on the other side it's okay to find them to be endearing but remember not to believe the package that we are being sold and try to educate yourself on their beliefs. That's all.  

 

 

They may indeed be carbon copies, in their beliefs (though that's probably unlikely). However, their level of happiness or unhappiness, function or dysfunction, is going to vary simply because they are not carbon copies of each other. They are separate people.

It sounds like you are saying, "If you hate their beliefs, you cannot ever believe that they have an ounce of mental health or happiness in anything in their lives."

[Snarkle]

So....back to Tori.  What are the odds that she will actually finish her education degree at Crown (since it's a four-year degree) vs. leaving to get married?  Interestingly, the dean of the Crown school of education got his master's at PCC, so there may be indirect/casual links between the two schools.   (A number of other Crown faculty attended PCC as well.)  So it might not be that unlikely for her to have met Bobby through friends or faculty at Crown.

[Kak]

3 hours ago, Exjw2015deed said:

Jeez, it's unfortunate that a lot of people are getting very testy on the bates forums. I say take a break and look at some of the other looney fundie families. At the end of the day we have to remember this is a snark website. 

Whenever I get the hots for Chad, or smile watching this family, I just head right over to recovering grace and curb "my desires that can't be fulfilled." 

The Duggar vs bates debate at this point is moot. There's more evidence pointing that they're, like Jim bob said, a "carbon copy" of the duggars. Just try and remember that. And on the other side it's okay to find them to be endearing but remember not to believe the package that we are being sold and try to educate yourself on their beliefs. That's all.  

 

 

It is moot. It's so, so moot. It's mind-numbingly moot.

[nelliebelle1197]

7 hours ago, Hisey said:

Did you think I said Zach was a Bernie Sanders-supporting feminist? I don't expect him to act like a normal person and engage in dating, kissing, etc. I am, however, impressed that he took one baby-step away from his parents' ridiculous rules. And I think that's healthy. 

I don't find an adult doing something normal then running to mommy to confess his sins normal. It is not a "baby step" away from his parents. A step away would not include confessing his sins to mommy and feeling guilty for his downfall. Methinks many of you are confused over this much loved in Bateslanndia phrase "baby step". When my babies stepped, they continued to move forward. Not a single Bates has "baby stepped" since they were infants.

[HereticHick]

6 hours ago, Snarkle said:

So....back to Tori.  What are the odds that she will actually finish her education degree at Crown (since it's a four-year degree) vs. leaving to get married?  Interestingly, the dean of the Crown school of education got his master's at PCC, so there may be indirect/casual links between the two schools.   (A number of other Crown faculty attended PCC as well.)  So it might not be that unlikely for her to have met Bobby through friends or faculty at Crown.

I've been wondering the same thing. So do we believe that Bobby has 1 year to go at PCC? Are they willing to court/be engaged for a  whole year? That wouldn't be unprecedented-- Brandon and Michael did it for over a year--and Chad & Erin courtship/engagement lasted almost a year.

Don't forget that multiple Hartonos  have attended PCC (and spent their school holidays cleaning toilets/babysitting for the Duggars), so there is that connection as well.

Brandon's grandfather taught at PCC, by the way. 

[19 cats and counting]

Erin finished her Crown degree after marriage, so I guess it is possible.

One thing I will say about the Bates is the seem to value education (as poor as it is) more than the Duggars do and respect their kids delaying marriage until after graduation (Michael).  I believe all but Lawson has at least some post high school education.

Also do we know if this is an 'official' courtship or are they just boyfriend/girlfriend (as Nathan and Ashley were for awhile)?  

[MorningMist]

13 minutes ago, 19 cats and counting said:

One thing I will say about the Bates is the seem to value education (as poor as it is) more than the Duggars do and respect their kids delaying marriage until after graduation (Michael).  I believe all but Lawson has at least some post high school education.

The only time I have ever been impressed with the Bates was in the episode when Kelly had to go buy new clothes for Trace and was talking to him about his future since he was thinking about doing horse stunt performances or something like that and basically begged him to take at least one class at Clown for a semester - IIRC she even said that Lawson her and Gil would pay for it. I mean, Clown college is far from being the best but for a fundie family, it's something.

[CreationMuseumCurator]

15 minutes ago, MorningMist said:

The only time I have ever been impressed with the Bates was in the episode when Kelly had to go buy new clothes for Trace and was talking to him about his future since he was thinking about doing horse stunt performances and basically begged him to take at least one class at Clown for a semester - IIRC she even said that Lawson her and Gil would pay for it. I mean, Clown college is far from being the best but for a fundie family, it's something.

This stuck out to me, too. It's one of the few times Kelly has ever reminded me of my own mother, despite looking and speaking quite a bit like her. My mom always prioritized education, and gave several of my friends (who didn't have supportive parents) pep talks about their educations and the future.

[SilverBeach]

On 5/4/2016 at 6:44 AM, hollywood said:

Excuse me, then. I just find it extremely repetitive. I am well aware this is not a fan site. There are posts everywhere showing it is not a fan site. No need to be rude. I was not wanting to start an argument. Just my opinion.  

If you are aware that this is not a fan site, stop handslapping members who are not fans. It is annoying as hell. Apparently being repetitive is not getting the message across. Maybe you weren't trying to start an argument but you were trying to control what other members say. 

[SilverBeach]

On 5/4/2016 at 8:11 AM, HereticHick said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primerica

The phrase "multi-level marketing" always makes my antennae quiver.

Primerica is not multilevel marketing. It is a financial services company that is fully subject to all SEC laws and regulations. Primerica representatives are fully licensed just like any other insurance salesperson or securities broker. Primerica is geared toward the financial needs of main Street America and offers a comprehensive analysis of your overall financial condition for free.

I tire of this misrepresentation of Primerica. In the financial services industry, be it Edward Jones or any other company, it is common to query customers to see if they have an interest in joining up, which costs nothing in most cases. In Primerica, income is made by sales, not just recruitment. You can make good money just by selling. Teaming and hierarchical sales organizations abound, real estate firms and car dealers are organized this way. My dad was in sales all his life and as an entrepreneur he received compensation on his sales and those under him. It is typical for sales organizations.

Look, I hate real MLMs with the heat of a dozen suns. Nerium, Mary Kay, Herbalife, to name a few, all are money losing propositons for all but those at the very top who started the scam. 99% of those who sign up with these disreputable companies make no money whatsoever. Family and friend relationships are disrupted. In Nerium, for example, they give the product away because revenue is raised by recruiting and the $500-$1000 it takes to join up. Mary Kay sells mostly to its reps, and does not even track sales to non-reps.

I have done a ton of research on MLMs and Primerica is not one.

[stevie]

Whenever someone says moot point I always think of Friends. As for Tori she's only six months older than me so it's sort of weird to think about someone my age in a stage of her life where she's probably going to get married before I even graduate college and start my career. I hope they have a long courtship like Brandon and Michael so they have more time to get to know each other and have more time to mature. I can't imagine this lifestyle where you get married so young and start having kids. I'm not in a relationship and not even thinking of settling down anytime soon in my life. There was a few kids in graduating high school class that are now engaged. We only graduated two years ago settling down in a relationship with the thought of getting married is nowhere in my mind.

 

[Nikedagain?]

2 minutes ago, stevie said:

Whenever someone says moot point I always think of Friends. As for Tori she's only six months older than me so it's sort of weird to think about someone my age in a stage of her life where she's probably going to get married before I even graduate college and start my career. I hope they have a long courtship like Brandon and Michael so they have more time to get to know each other and have more time to mature. I can't imagine this lifestyle where you get married so young and start having kids. I'm not in a relationship and not even thinking of settling down anytime soon in my life. There was a few kids in graduating high school class that are now engaged. We only graduated two years ago settling down in a relationship with the thought of getting married is nowhere in my mind.

 

Haha yasss! A MOO POINT! 

They all just suck. 

[Exjw2015deed]

12 hours ago, Hisey said:

They may indeed be carbon copies, in their beliefs (though that's probably unlikely). However, their level of happiness or unhappiness, function or dysfunction, is going to vary simply because they are not carbon copies of each other. They are separate people.

It sounds like you are saying, "If you hate their beliefs, you cannot ever believe that they have an ounce of mental health or happiness in anything in their lives."

That's not necessarily what I meant, but I can see how my post can be misconstrued. I just believe when the duggars came out and started getting fame and recognition, Gil bates certainly tried to align himself with duggars. Both families constantly said, "we share many of the same values," "our side-kick southerner cousins," "our families are so much alike." 

Their new show premiered right after the first Duggar scandal and after Bill gothard's scandal. For the most part, I have a problem more so with Gil. He is certainly an opportunist and has distanced himself from gothard and never discusses his position on the board, on the show. 

According to their standards, he is he headship of the family. Until they are married they must fall "under his umbrella of protection." Their ties to IBLP run way deeper than most fundie families. (Marrying into Paine, Keilen, and Webster families.)

My post was simply saying to take caution, and look up the accusations made against Gil bates. Also, I have no problem with anyone that defends the bates, I've have for some instances. I just think we have to not take it all so personal. 

 

 

 

On another note, I wonder if tori is going mellow down now, she is certainly one of the most vocal out of the sisters. She said a long time ago she wasn't going to learn to cook until she got a "fella". She also expressed interest in becoming a teacher, I too hope she finishes her education. 

[faraway]

3 hours ago, Exjw2015deed said:

On another note, I wonder if tori is going mellow down now, she is certainly one of the most vocal out of the sisters. She said a long time ago she wasn't going to learn to cook until she got a "fella". She also expressed interest in becoming a teacher, I too hope she finishes her education. 

I wonder about that too. In general, she strikes me as very different from Erin, Michael and Alyssa. Have we ever heard her talk about marriage and kids?