Now Scheduling for Summer: Erika Shupe (pt. 7)

[Granwych]

1 hour ago, fundiesarefascinating said:

Heidi Schween promotes the Ezzo's, Babywise, and Growing Families International which to me points to some level of fundie.  I take major pause at parents who promote the Ezzo's in any way. 

I've read that Erika loves Babywise. 

[Shiny]

1 hour ago, Granwych said:

I've read that Erika loves Babywise. 

Of course she does! Babywise leads to unattached, starving babies. Seems exactly what she wants. 

 

[mango_fandango]

13 minutes ago, Shiny said:

Of course she does! Babywise leads unattached, starving babies. Seems exactly what she wants. 

 

How anyone can think that a six week old baby can thrive on being fed only every three to four hours is a mindfuck to me. Bitch.

[Shiny]

1 hour ago, mango_fandango said:

How anyone can think that a six week old baby can thrive on being fed only every three to four hours is a mindfuck to me. Bitch.

I know, it's terrible. There have been serious complaints about Ezzo and their teachings, but families still follow it. 

[fundiesarefascinating]

3 hours ago, FundamentallyShocked said:

Ewww.....those are pretty awful! I didn't find that part of her blog. It is rather hard to navigate, but looks nicer than Erika's.

I think that is what I find the most scary.  When I read Erika's blog it is evident (to me) that I would never ever want to follow her advice.  She comes across as domineering and abusive.  But Heidi (who promotes the Ezzos, which I assume means she uses their methods - I could be wrong of course) seems so normal.  Reading it I don't get any major red flags. It seems like it would be easier to get sucked into her blog/life.  Sort of a Duggar/Bates difference.  Both equally horrid, just the packaging is so different. 

[iweartanktops]

2 hours ago, Granwych said:

I've read that Erika loves Babywise. 

 

2 hours ago, Shiny said:

Of course she does! Babywise leads to unattached, starving babies. Seems exactly what she wants. 

 

I have been wanting to ask about the Babywise hate. I used to nanny for a family who used BW. The parents were so loving and attentive, and the baby was very happy and satisfied. We scheduled her feedings, and when she seems to have increased needs, we increased her feedings accordingly. I truly never saw a problem. She always slept better than most babies I know, too. 

ETA that I definitely don't think that any particular style works for every baby/child. Also, this family isn't fundie, so they don't "train" their kids. 

[Granwych]

4 minutes ago, iweartanktops said:

 

I have been wanting to ask about the Babywise hate. I used to nanny for a family who used BW. The parents were so loving and attentive, and the baby was very happy and satisfied. We scheduled her feedings, and when she seems to have increased needs, we increased her feedings accordingly. I truly never saw a problem. She always slept better than most babies I know, too. 

ETA that I definitely don't think that any particular style works for every baby/child. Also, this family isn't fundie, so they don't "train" their kids. 

It sounds like the family you worked for was not rigid with scheduling.  Tell me, though--if the baby was crying from hunger, did she have to wait for a scheduled feeding?  I have read so many "baby" books, and my current favorite author is Tracy Hogg, the "Baby Whisperer."  She advocates following a routine rather than a schedule.

[iweartanktops]

6 minutes ago, Granwych said:

It sounds like the family you worked for was not rigid with scheduling.  Tell me, though--if the baby was crying from hunger, did she have to wait for a scheduled feeding?  I have read so many "baby" books, and my current favorite author is Tracy Hogg, the "Baby Whisperer."  She advocates following a routine rather than a schedule.

No. This didn't happen often, but when it did, we realized her needs were increasing, so we added a feeding, added more milk/baby food to each feed, etc. We stuck with the schedule, in general, but made changes as needed. We would have never deprived her. To be honest, I think I'll follow a similar plan with my own kids, if it works for them. 

[mango_fandango]

9 minutes ago, Granwych said:

It sounds like the family you worked for was not rigid with scheduling.  Tell me, though--if the baby was crying from hunger, did she have to wait for a scheduled feeding?  I have read so many "baby" books, and my current favorite author is Tracy Hogg, the "Baby Whisperer."  She advocates following a routine rather than a schedule.

Yeah. As a borderline Aspie (I have plenty of traits, just not enough for a full-blown diagnosis) I actually do pretty well on routine, even if I'm not good at setting them up myself. However, having a rigid Shupe-esque schedule wouldn't be good for me. I'd get too hung up on the times. Instead, I can see myself having a general routine for my family (e.g. up at eight, school at nine, pickup 3:30, dinner at 6, bed at nine or whatver). Or maybe it'd be a routine in the sense of always doing things in the same order. Routines and stuff are good for big families, and whenever I read up about having multiples mums always say that routines keep them sane. Complete chaos isn't good, nor is a crazy Shupe-esque schedule. A general routine is the way forward.

[Shiny]

1 hour ago, iweartanktops said:

 

I have been wanting to ask about the Babywise hate. I used to nanny for a family who used BW. The parents were so loving and attentive, and the baby was very happy and satisfied. We scheduled her feedings, and when she seems to have increased needs, we increased her feedings accordingly. I truly never saw a problem. She always slept better than most babies I know, too. 

ETA that I definitely don't think that any particular style works for every baby/child. Also, this family isn't fundie, so they don't "train" their kids. 

Babywise instructs parents to drop nighttime feedings at 8 weeks (if I recall). This is developmentally inappropriate for most babies, particularly breastfeeding babies as milk supply is still being established. Even for a bottle fed baby, many are not ready to drop nighttime feedings and lead to a dehydrated baby. On demand feeding is recommending by every health organization I can think of. 

I don't remember what age Babywise says to let a baby cry it out at night, but it's something ridiculously early. 

Ezzo also makes a LOT of medical claims...and I don't think he has any medical background. I just have a real problem with that. 

[Hisey]

On 4/29/2016 at 10:10 PM, fundiesarefascinating said:

Yeah, that's a fair point.  I guess I just can't imagine putting my 2yo in a room alone and not allowing her to talk to me unless she needs to use the washroom. It seems so cold.  

 

http://teamschween.blogspot.ca   

Agreed! For an hour? Seems crazy. And this lady only has four kids. I could almost see it for Erika, who has nine (though I'd never do this myself). 

[mango_fandango]

The Schween house is a LOT bigger than Erika's! Can Erika and Heidi swap? *hmm*

http://teamschween.blogspot.de/2013/10/and-then-one-daywe-bought-house.html

[iweartanktops]

44 minutes ago, Shiny said:

Babywise instructs parents to drop nighttime feedings at 8 weeks (if I recall). This is developmentally inappropriate for most babies, particularly breastfeeding babies as milk supply is still being established. Even for a bottle fed baby, many are not ready to drop nighttime feedings and lead to a dehydrated baby. On demand feeding is recommending by every health organization I can think of. 

I don't remember what age Babywise says to let a baby cry it out at night, but it's something ridiculously early. 

Ezzo also makes a LOT of medical claims...and I don't think he has any medical background. I just have a real problem with that. 

We never used cry it out. I don't remember when her overnight feeding stopped. 

I have worked with many pediatricians, and I have not met one who had a problem with babies going 6 hours overnight without feeding, as long as their weight was stable and increasing, and they didn't have other health issues.

If the baby is satiated and gaining weight, scheduling feeding is just fine.

[withaj]

22 minutes ago, mango_fandango said:

The Schween house is a LOT bigger than Erika's! Can Erika and Heidi swap? *hmm*

http://teamschween.blogspot.de/2013/10/and-then-one-daywe-bought-house.html

OMG... since when is a house built in '95 old?

[bjr70]

Yeah. As a borderline Aspie (I have plenty of traits, just not enough for a full-blown diagnosis) I actually do pretty well on routine, even if I'm not good at setting them up myself. However, having a rigid Shupe-esque schedule wouldn't be good for me. I'd get too hung up on the times. Instead, I can see myself having a general routine for my family (e.g. up at eight, school at nine, pickup 3:30, dinner at 6, bed at nine or whatver). Or maybe it'd be a routine in the sense of always doing things in the same order. Routines and stuff are good for big families, and whenever I read up about having multiples mums always say that routines keep them sane. Complete chaos isn't good, nor is a crazy Shupe-esque schedule. A general routine is the way forward.

I have OCD and I would have the same issue. I get super obsessed with being late and then I get anxious. I like routine, but a super detailed schedule makes me an anxious mess.

[fundiesarefascinating]

51 minutes ago, iweartanktops said:

We never used cry it out. I don't remember when her overnight feeding stopped. 

I have worked with many pediatricians, and I have not met one who had a problem with babies going 6 hours overnight without feeding, as long as their weight was stable and increasing, and they didn't have other health issues.

If the baby is satiated and gaining weight, scheduling feeding is just fine.

The Ezzos aren't advocating for 6 hours though.  They have stated that babies can wait 8-10 hours overnight to be fed and should be left to cry until their next feeding.  Ezzo also claims that by 6 months babies should get three 15-20 minute feedings a day with no snacks or in between filler meals. 

This is counter to virtually every accountable paediatrician or health care board recommendation anywhere. 

[Shiny]

1 hour ago, iweartanktops said:

We never used cry it out. I don't remember when her overnight feeding stopped. 

I have worked with many pediatricians, and I have not met one who had a problem with babies going 6 hours overnight without feeding, as long as their weight was stable and increasing, and they didn't have other health issues.

If the baby is satiated and gaining weight, scheduling feeding is just fine.

This isn't just scheduling feedings. Ezzo instructed parents to let the baby cry until their schedule feeding time. He said this would teach them to eat all the milk in one sitting. 1 month old babies can't learn natural consequences. I also don't have a problem with babies going all night without eating...many ARE able. However Ezzo made all babies fit into the same schedule, really no matter what. And he advocated not holding your baby. He is not a good guy. He's not Pearls bad, but he's close. 

 

[THERetroGamerNY]

Damn. So... Just let the baby cry, just ignore it and not feed it... This jackass advocate putting them on blankets and smacking them with wooden spoons?!

[Shiny]

44 minutes ago, THERetroGamerNY said:

Damn. So... Just let the baby cry, just ignore it and not feed it... This jackass advocate putting them on blankets and smacking them with wooden spoons?!

That's in a different book I think. But yeah he has a book that talks about spanking kids the biblical way. With wooden spoons and leather straps. 

[SoybeanQueen]

9 hours ago, fundiesarefascinating said:

Heidi Schween promotes the Ezzo's, Babywise, and Growing Families International which to me points to some level of fundie.  I take major pause at parents who promote the Ezzo's in any way. 

Yup. Being an Ezzo fan is not a good thing, in general. There are some people outside of fundie world who believe in that potentially deadly tripe, but buying into it seems to happen more in fundie families.

Not only does the author not have a medical background, he doesn't even have a bachelor's degree at all. He got what amounts to an honorary masters degree from an institution that allowed substituting two years of ministry for classwork/education. Much of the research quoted in the book was done by him and was not peer reviewed.

[fundiesarefascinating]

2 minutes ago, SoybeanQueen said:

Yup. Being an Ezzo fan is not a good thing, in general. There are some people outside of fundie world who believe in that potentially deadly tripe, but buying into it seems to happen more in fundie families.

Apparently Gothard is a big promoter of Ezzo.  Would sell the books at his conferences.  Seems like it runs in fundie circles and is really promoted by the higher ups. 

[mango_fandango]

15 minutes ago, fundiesarefascinating said:

Apparently Gothard is a big promoter of Ezzo.  Would sell the books at his conferences.  Seems like it runs in fundie circles and is really promoted by the higher ups. 

Anything to get kids in line and have their spirits crushed at an early age. Wankers.

[DaffyDill]

2 hours ago, fundiesarefascinating said:

The Ezzos aren't advocating for 6 hours though.  They have stated that babies can wait 8-10 hours overnight to be fed and should be left to cry until their next feeding.  Ezzo also claims that by 6 months babies should get three 15-20 minute feedings a day with no snacks or in between filler meals. 

This is counter to virtually every accountable paediatrician or health care board recommendation anywhere. 

My eldest first slept through the night at 5 weeks. And by around 10 weeks, he would regularly sleep from 10 pm to 5:45 - 6am. He put on weight, met all his milestones, was a happy, placid, contented baby. I had to bottle feed, but still, it was pretty young.

Second son slept through from 10 weeks onward. They have always been sleepers, (still are LOL!) and had afternoon naps for 2 hours even up until 3-4 years old.

I was super lucky I think, and obviously if they had woken for a feed, they certainly would have been fed. But seeing their weight gains etc were fine, and developmental milestones were all fine, I let them sleep.

[fundiesarefascinating]

5 minutes ago, DaffyDill said:

My eldest first slept through the night at 5 weeks. And by around 10 weeks, he would regularly sleep from 10 pm to 5:45 - 6am. He put on weight, met all his milestones, was a happy, placid, contented baby. I had to bottle feed, but still, it was pretty young.

Second son slept through from 10 weeks onward. They have always been sleepers, (still are LOL!) and had afternoon naps for 2 hours even up until 3-4 years old.

I was super lucky I think, and obviously if they had woken for a feed, they certainly would have been fed. But seeing their weight gains etc were fine, and developmental milestones were all fine, I let them sleep.

Certainly. And I don't mean to imply that there aren't babies who sleep through the night naturally or who can go for that period of time without feedings. With my first it freaked me right out that she was sleeping through the night by 12 weeks.  I actually went through a period of two weeks where I would wake her up and offer her food because I was worried (oh to be a new mom). The key point, as you said, is that if your child woke hungry or thirsty you would feed and you were monitoring milestones.  

[iweartanktops]

3 hours ago, fundiesarefascinating said:

The Ezzos aren't advocating for 6 hours though.  They have stated that babies can wait 8-10 hours overnight to be fed and should be left to cry until their next feeding.  Ezzo also claims that by 6 months babies should get three 15-20 minute feedings a day with no snacks or in between filler meals. 

This is counter to virtually every accountable paediatrician or health care board recommendation anywhere. 

 

2 hours ago, Shiny said:

This isn't just scheduling feedings. Ezzo instructed parents to let the baby cry until their schedule feeding time. He said this would teach them to eat all the milk in one sitting. 1 month old babies can't learn natural consequences. I also don't have a problem with babies going all night without eating...many ARE able. However Ezzo made all babies fit into the same schedule, really no matter what. And he advocated not holding your baby. He is not a good guy. He's not Pearls bad, but he's close. 

 

Wow, this all sounds extremely fucked up! Apparently with this particular baby, the parents (and myself) only followed BW loosely. We never let her cry for anything. Perhaps by 5 or 6 months, if she whined a bit during a nap, we let her get herself back to sleep rather than running to her side immediately, but if it took longer than a minute or two, we got her. I see nothing wrong with that. If an infant is crying, they have a need to be met. Allowing them to basically beg (through crying) for help until it's "time" to eat, or they fall asleep, is cruel. 

Thanks for the mature discussion. I cringed when I posted because I didn't want to start a mommy war.