Bates Family Part 14 - Party in Pink

[nokidsmom]

51 minutes ago, Snarkle said:

I found this to be an interesting comment on the gardening picture after a bunch of leghumpers gushed over how they want a "Chad" too:

"In God's perfect timing every girl can have their own "Chad". You just have to hold out for the one God has for you. The world is filled with "Chads". Don't rush into something that isn't Gods will. Wait! Like Erin did. It's so worth it!"

So basically if a fundie girl waits for God's perfect timing, she too can have a guy who builds furniture, does the laundry, and fawns over his wife, and not be dealt a Josh Duggar or John Schrader or Kristina from Keepsake's husband?  Nice thought, but God doesn't seem to be the best matchmaker for a lot of these girls.  Even Duchess of Cambridge Kate, who waited years to become a royal, still had a choice in the matter of whom she married, unlike the majority of these fundie girls.  When a fundie girl gushes about how she saw a guy from afar and felt her heart flutter but left it up to God to bring the guy to her (like Anna Duggar for one), I wonder how many of them were subject to the "guy who got away" disappointment but said it was God's decision that the guy not ask to court her.   I always feel like God is busy with bigger things than worrying about individual matchmaking, but then again I'm a heathen who got engaged a couple of months after meeting my husband, so I'm not a good judge of such things.

I went to a conservative Christian college and there were girls who were clearly looking for a husband.   Many of them were legacy students whose parents met at the same college and were hoping for same, in some respects it was similar to fundies looking for spouses in the limited "ok to marry" pool as mentioned in my previous post.

Some of them would seriously set their cap on a guy (or a guy on a girl) and if nothing happened (or it did and ultimately didn't work out) they would go on and on about "how it wasn't God's will" or "God's intended" or some such drivel.  I do think think that in spite of that talk some of them seriously got caught up on the whole "one that got away" disappointment.

I tried not to roll my eyes over the whole idea of God as a matchmaker, yep, the idea of it was ludicrous even to young idealistic me.   Sometimes things work out, sometimes not but frankly I was of the mind that there were a lot of fish in the sea and there wasn't just one person in the whole wide world meant for you, there could a number of people you could connect with.

 

[nastyhobbitses]

12 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

That's exactly what I was thinking...like the royal marriages.  Only so many in the "marriageable" pool, who are similiar in age and Ok to form an alliance with.     And if you can get someone you really like and treats you well, it's a bonus. 

I wonder if on some level Erin was aware of the perils of picking someone who would treat her like crap.  Surely she must have seen how some of her contemporaries fared and perhaps knew to pick wisely.  And while I am no fan of her parents, perhaps seeing the relationship between them (because they are clearly still into each other) was a model for her.  They may have fucked up a lot of things with raising their kids, but that example might have been one of the better lessons for her.  

I'm sure Erin was dimly aware of abuse or loveless marriages and wanted to find someone she could have a good relationship with. She and Chad do seem into each other (I really feel like in these sorts of marriages, you have to be either indifferent/cordial with each other or super-into each other -- animosity or an on-off dynamic will spell disaster) and he seems to care about her even though he doesn't care about her rights, so again, she's pretty much won the husband lottery. It did help that she popped out a boy, if we're going with the royal marriages theme here.

Also, on the note of royal marriages: one of the most weirdly sad relationships, I think, was Elisabeth of Bavaria and Franz Joseph. He was head over heels for her and thought she was the greatest thing since sliced bread. She didn't hate him, but she did hate his mom and the court, so she never reciprocated his feelings. He passionately loved her until the day he died, she tolerated him until the day she died.

 

[Melissa1977]

7 hours ago, formergothardite said:

The real Chad is most likely anti-gay, anti-women's rights and anti-all other religions or beliefs. No hot body and doing laundry can make up for that. I have no desire for a "Chad". 

I don't want a fundie husband. I'm not defending Chad's ideas. But the truth is that having a husband who cares for you, helps at home (doing even difficult chores as remodeling) and has a real job is a good thing.

Of course I'd be horrified of marrying Chad, but since Erin shares his beliefs, it's not a problem for them.

The most of fundies we discuss here are horrible husbands (or lazy douchebags at least). But I think it's right to give Chad some credit.

 

[Melissa1977]

I think courting with chaperones is a very bad idea, because you marry someone you really don't know. It's hard to built an strong relationship if you're  not even free to speak or texting your boyfriend before marriage. And some fundie marriages seem arranged, what is depressing.

But of course love exists everywhere. And even in the closed fundie world, 2 people can fall in love and marry just because they want to. It's probably Erin's situation. Yes she couldn't marry anyone outside ATI, but she found there someone she really likes. 

No, I'm not specially romantic and I'm concerned by the upbringing of the babies fundies are having. But not everything is black or white and fundies can have a good marriage and I think We can discuss here their dangerous beliefs but also We can snark On their decoration ideas, outfits or lovely gardens. Why not?

[THERetroGamerNY]

You know, there were studies and research done on old-style courtships that showed that not only were they full of highly elaborate customs (a Victorian woman could show non-interest in a guy at a dance by a mere precise move of a fan I believe), but studies also showed that it was women who lead and initiated the whole thing. So the woman advanced the whole relationship as she felt comfortable I guess?

I got the impression that they allowed plenty of time for the relationship to develop properly.

Social customs evolved, and that stuff faded...

Therefore that means fundies, in grand regressive tradition, dug their heels in and refused to socially evolve. They do that sort of thing rather well. :/

But it's not even a proper courtship, and is all centered on keeping the girl a virgin, and getting them married ASAP (because virginity).

They basically do even courtships half-assed.

[SassyPants]

Maybe I'm missing something but if you're one of 19 and get together for many years (decades) with the same fundie families who also have double digit numbers of children, wouldn't matchups naturally occur? In addition, wouldn't these kids>adults all actually know each other better than say, Jessa being pursued by Ben or Jill falling in love with someone she had never actually met???

[19 cats and counting]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

Maybe I'm missing something but if you're one of 19 and get together for many years (decades) with the same fundie families who also have double digit numbers of children, wouldn't matchups naturally occur? In addition, wouldn't these kids>adults all actually know each other better than say, Jessa being pursued by Ben or Jill falling in love with someone she had never actually met???

That is precisely what happened with the 3/4 married (and Nathan) Bates kids.  They met naturally at a fundie function and fell in love that way.

Granted it doesn't always work out.  Josh and Anna met at an ATI event concession stand.

[Snarkle]

It would not be surprising if Big Sandy and the other ATI conferences function as fundie meetups of sort.  Of course nothing can happen at such places other than a furtive glance or two (admiring someone's countenance or work ethic from afar), but a lot of the ATI families talk about fellowshipping and visiting each other.  Heck, the Duggars even built a bunkhouse to encourage other large families to visit, didn't they?  Plus the Journeys to the Heart and working at (the old) IBLP HQ all gave the non-royalty fundies a chance to meet other like-minded potential mates.  Plus the old standby of going on a mission trip.  Since these fundies don't  go to Christian colleges, ATI gatherings, fellowshipping, and volunteering are their best bets of finding someone.

The LDS church (Mormons) has a smarter way of getting adherents together and promoting marriages and family.  A friend of mine's family traces its roots back to Brigham Young himself - many generations of active LDS Youngs - and she met her husband at an LDS-sponsored dance intended to bring couples together. My other LDS friend met her husband at, of course, Brigham Young University.  My parents' neighbors have ten kids and their two oldest daughters are currently at BYU studying music, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were married shortly after they graduate (or after a suitor returns from his mission).  There's even suggestions on the LDS website on how to throw a good mixer dance (https://www.lds.org/new-era/2004/08/how-to-put-on-a-great-stake-dance).  My brother and his family lived in Salt Lake City for some time, and my niece married a man raised LDS, but he did not do a mission and hasn't really gone to church in a while, but they recently had their son blessed in the LDS church.  My niece said she'd convert if her husband was willing to lead the way, but we'll see.  Not a church for me, but I try to keep my opinions to myself for the sake of family harmony.

[Honeysuckle]

4 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Maybe I'm missing something but if you're one of 19 and get together for many years (decades) with the same fundie families who also have double digit numbers of children, wouldn't matchups naturally occur? In addition, wouldn't these kids>adults all actually know each other better than say, Jessa being pursued by Ben or Jill falling in love with someone she had never actually met???

I think it kind of depends. Families who you see occasionally, like at a homeschooling conference, seem like they lead to matches. But families who are good friends and visit often might feel more like cousins than like romantic partners. There's something to be said for keeping a bit of mystery.

[Snarkle]

Indeed, but for a lot of these fundies, romance isn't part of the equation - Kendalyn Staddon, for one, didn't have a love match - her dad pretty much helped select her husband, who had to win her over.  Valerie Waller's husband Adam pretty much surprised her with his interest.  There's a lot of machinations by men behind the scenes for a lot of these courtships/engagements/marriages.  Not exactly arranged marriages per se, but definitely ones where dad is the one picking his daughter's potential suitor (hence poor Jana still being a SAHD).   I think that's why Erin and Chad stand out - they're one of the few couples who talk about being smitten with each other pretty early on, and not just her waiting on her prince charming to come out of nowhere to rescue her.  

[RosyDaisy]

Yeah, there are non-fundie Chads out there. I have one, and I suspect others on here do as well.

[19 cats and counting]

Even if Chad never came into the picture, I highly doubt Erin would have married outside of ATI.  She just strikes me as too fundie to do so (just as it could have been her not her parents that turned down the secular college).  It is clear she's very happy in the fundie world and will probably never do something like wear pants.  She's also very lucky she didn't get a guy like TFDW.

She also seemed to have the most conservative courtship of all 4 (well now 5) couples and adhered to the Duggar rules the most.  I'm not sure if they front hugged or not, but even her super fundie sister front hugged the shit out of Brandon when he popped the question.  (It also very well be that her courtship was the first successful one, but she's just not one to challenge rules).  

Also look at her wedding dress alterations vs her sisters'.  Even super conservative Michael didn't have a t-shirt added to her dress.

And as slimy as her father is, I'll give him credit for letting the right suitors through the gates with his daughters (looking at you JB).   You can say what you want for a guy like Brandon, but his personality meshes well with Michael's. I can see all 3 Bates girl marriages (and Zach's for that matter) working out even in the secular world.  (2/3 Duggar marriages would be over in the secular world).  

[AnnaRuk09]

8 hours ago, Snarkle said:

I think that's why Erin and Chad stand out

 

5 hours ago, RosyDaisy said:

Yeah, there are non-fundie Chads out there

 

1 hour ago, 19 cats and counting said:

Even if Chad never came into the picture

Ahh, the Chad. Can someone please explain to me why he is so talked about on here? What, is he a romantic or just a simple nice guy? From what I've seen, he's talked about like he's some kind of a superhero and he's probably one of the most guy liked here on FJ. I'm kinda new here so, Why?! 

[formergothardite]

Chad isn't as bad as he could be, so he gets praised. Of course we only see the heavily edited version of Chad that they show us, so who knows what the real Chad is like. I always remember how people(including me) talked about how Josh, despite being lazy, really seemed to love and care for Anna, yet look what the real Josh was like and how he was treating her. 

[19 cats and counting]

14 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Chad isn't as bad as he could be, so he gets praised. Of course we only see the heavily edited version of Chad that they show us, so who knows what the real Chad is like. I always remember how people(including me) talked about how Josh, despite being lazy, really seemed to love and care for Anna, yet look what the real Josh was like and how he was treating her. 

I could be incredibly wrong, but Chad does not seem lazy.  He's done more work around the house than Joshley has in his lifetime.

[Melissa1977]

11 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Chad isn't as bad as he could be, so he gets praised. Of course we only see the heavily edited version of Chad that they show us, so who knows what the real Chad is like. I always remember how people(including me) talked about how Josh, despite being lazy, really seemed to love and care for Anna, yet look what the real Josh was like and how he was treating her. 

Yes, but Josh was basically doing nothing but eating junk food and getting fatter and jerker (does this word exist?). As far as we know, and I don't think Erin is lying here, Chad helps at home and builts furniture, remodels kitchen, paints walls and has   a real job. So not comparable to Josh.

[formergothardite]

I wasn't saying Chad was lazy, but that Josh, despite being lazy, came off as a guy who was deeply in love with his wife. It was talked about here,  but it came out that we were wrong, Josh was cheating on Anna. I'm also reminded of the fundie who swore up and down that Doug had a solid marriage because of how he was seen treating his wife during VF events. Again, despite appearances, Doug wasn't a good husband. My point with all this is that it is really hard to tell what a person is actually like when you only see a tiny glimpse of their life. And with Chad, that is a tiny glimpse of his life that is always edited to put him in the best light. 

What we know of Chad is what they show us of Chad, and they aren't going to show us anything that might be bad. They are going to only show him doing good things and being a spectacular husband. In end the end, he is a fundie guy with horrific beliefs who just happens to be shown on social media as being a better than average fundie husband. 

[Palimpsest]

2 hours ago, AnnaRuk09 said:

Ahh, the Chad. Can someone please explain to me why he is so talked about on here? What, is he a romantic or just a simple nice guy? From what I've seen, he's talked about like he's some kind of a superhero and he's probably one of the most guy liked here on FJ. I'm kinda new here so, Why?! 

I'm not a member of the Chad Fan Club.

It seems to have something to do with some members finding him hot and that he doesn't come over as a total ass.  Also, he doesn't work for IBLP/ATI at Headquarters at the moment, although I'm sure he has spent a lot of time there in the past.  He allowed Erin to paint the marital bedroom Pepto-Bismol pink (although that has now been toned down by dark green, thank the FSM) and, like many males (Fundie or not) he is reasonable handy with power tools.  Oh, and he hasn't stopped Erin from playing the piano in public or teaching now she is married so that makes him some kind of saint.

Other than that I can't explain it, sorry.  I always think of him as the Hanging Chad, by the way.  He is not very notable and sort of hangs on Erin.

[Coconut Flan]

Referencing a post above, they aren't meeting future mates at JTTH as those are single sex retreats. 

[paulypepper]

On 4/6/2016 at 11:37 AM, catlady said:

my sheets and towels are Technicolor, too; my most recent acquisition is bright orange.  I also have no white or beige walls anywhere in my house.  and for as long as Target has been carrying tutu-style skirts for little girls (a couple years now), I've been insanely jealous that no one sold them in the mid-70's, because I would have loved to wear them!!!1!

confession time:  I've gotten my tutu/frilly fix lately--a store in my area specializes in retro clothes, and they carry a lot of circle skirts and crinolines.  yes, I've bought a few; I wear them to work (with modern tops and heels); and I absolutely love them.

OMG! My recent sheet acquisitions are orange and strawberry pink as well as being the extra super soft variety...two thumbs down on the ebil white and beige!!!

[19 cats and counting]

I never found Chad attractive.  I just can't look at him without seeing Paul Ryan (someone who I think is a jackass).  

And while he's not public with his beliefs (since he got married), I'm sure they're the same or worse than the politician's.  

[JMO]

For all their talk about having as many children as God allows, the fundies don't seem to try and get their kids married off as much as some other fundie religions.  There's lots of talk about following God's plan and God's timing.  Someone above referenced the BYU mixers.  In the orthodox community there are not only matchmakers but match making trips.  I once worked with a guy who took a year off of medical school to live and travel in Israel for a year with other singles with the express purpose of finding a wife.  He was 24 and was considered getting on in years.  It worked.  He returned wed and went back to medical school.  (For reference it's really rare to take a year off from med school unless there is a serious medical emergency. ) 

[THERetroGamerNY]

@JMO Agreed. That's what I meant about their half-assed "courtships".

[JMO]

I have a feeling that the amount of pressure they put on purity and not focusing on physical attraction makes them shy away from encouraging relationships.  The only time we have heard of parents trying to match up two kidults were the Wallers.  We have all speculated on why TFDW was pushed towards Priss.....  We did also hear that Brandon's sister encouraged him to consider Michael.  But that's his sister, even though she is older it's different than his parents doing that. 

[paulypepper]

On 4/7/2016 at 3:57 PM, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Not snark, just wondering - how many grandkids until it's just like a small school district and they couldn't have individual relationships with all of them if they wanted to - just due to the logistics of time?

If every Bates/Duggar kid had an average of 5 kids that's still 95 grandkids.  And with the huge age range there will almost certainly be great grandchildren before the younger ones are done having their kids.  

Admittedly I'm not the most social of people, but having a close and loving relationship with that many people seems like an impossibility to me.  Is this just be being an outlier?  That's totally possible.

Pros and cons to everything I'm sure - less time with grandparents more eleventy cousins you could maybe bond with some of them...it just seems like an awful lot of people to love the way you think of a grandparent loving their grand kids.  

I'm one of 30 some grandkids on one side...and I loved my Grams and I'm sure she loved me in the way she loved all of us...I'm not sure she really knew me.  Not like how you see it on the Werther's commercials, anyway.  I know that when everyone was together I felt like I was just one of a pack of kids...the moments that I remember fondly with her are all from the rare time I'd spent alone with her or with her and my mom.  

Or letters when I was away at school...and when I'd call her.  But how personal would it be if there was an assembly line of people making cookies to send to the grand kids away at school?

That could be because I'm not an easy person to get close to - or love.  Or our family dynamics.  Or whatever...but she had great grandkids before I came along and as one of the youngest it just felt like an overwhelming mass of people whenever there was a gathering.  

So is it really possible for these grandparents to really love all of them, or will there be some they bond with and just virtue of numbers assure that some of them are relatives without any personal relationship?

It's just what you're used to, I guess.  I am closer in age to my eldest nephew than I am to my sister - who married before I was 10.  I have a cousin whose niece is a couple months older than her.   Pre-Vatican II days this was so common in Catholic families it wasn't really noteworthy.  

Apparently we're all on BC now and they're in the running for how many kids two parents can shoehorn in a house.  

I bow to you for the reason I don't get into family history..There's too much going on..and my math skills aside from balancing my checkbook really suck...and I guess also because I'm the black sheep of the family...