Obedience chart

[clibbyjo]

This woman gave her kids a hint she might take them to a civil war reenactment if the children follow the obedience chart, for kids ages 7-3(her brilliant husbands idea). If more than one kid gets 2 sad faces, no one goes. I love how if the toddler misbehaves everyone suffers, what a bitch. themodestmomblog.com

[BravaAmica]

Because a 3 year old is so capable of thinking how his actions affect others. This will not end well.

[debrand]

However, we don't like to extend special privileges to our children when they've been especially naughty (ever had one of those weeks? months? :

In our family, we've decided that participating in family events is not dependent on how well our children behaved at home. The reasoning was that punishing one child actually punished other people because either mom, dad or everyone had to remain home with them. We always felt that doing things together as a family was more important. They're kids for a short period. Now, don't get me wrong. I would not have let my child participate in an event if he or she acted so badly during that they ruined the outing for other people. If they threw a fit, I took the child out to the car or went home. But if they misbehaved at home, I punished them at home.

[Guest Anonymous]

So they are working towards a reward but (1) they do not know what the reward is (2) they do not know what precise behaviours they have to achieve to get the reward, and (3) the reward is also contingent on the behaviour of others that they cannot control (and one of whom is so young he probably cannot control himself very well).

Way to go, Modest Mom! That sounds soooo super logical that you'd better be careful the Maxwells don't steal your idea and write a book about it.....

[Cran]

I'm all for consequences, but it should be reasonable. Cutting small children out of major family events because of two "sad faces" is not reasonable, making them responsible for the loss of pleasure for the whole family is not reasonable, either.

I am able toimagine scenarios where EXTREME bad behavior might result in leaving the child with a babysitter or similar, but only if the behavior was so bad it would endager the child or others in public settings. A child that does not listen, runs wildly around and can't be spoken to reasonably is such a danger, but this would be the fault of the parents and should not be treated as punishment.

Small children can't make the connection between their misdeeds and an event that is some time in the future, such punishment would therefore be ineffective and might arouse wrong feelings of perpetual guilt and false responsibility for the happiness of the whole family.

"You haven't cleaned your room, so you will do this intead of being read a story" might be possible (while I wouldn't inflict it on children, if I had any), but what she does here is just a demonstration of power, ineffective and sad.

[dawbs]

In our family, we've decided that participating in family events is not dependent on how well our children behaved at home. The reasoning was that punishing one child actually punished other people because either mom, dad or everyone had to remain home with them. We always felt that doing things together as a family was more important. They're kids for a short period. Now, don't get me wrong. I would not have let my child participate in an event if he or she acted so badly during that they ruined the outing for other people. If they threw a fit, I took the child out to the car or went home. But if they misbehaved at home, I punished them at home.

From experience, you can also get the 'sullen teenage sister doesn't want to go and is willing to take us all down with her' syndrome.

Before said sister even becomes a teen :roll:

[Kitty]

God I fucking hate collective punishment. It's laziness and power-tripping. Pure and fucking simple.

If the three-year-old misbehaves, as all 3-year-olds do, no family outing. WTF. Seriously? Fucking seriously? And you expect a 7 year old to be able to understand THAT?

Collective punishment is bullshit. It doesn't work. If my younger sister misbehaved and I got punished for it along with her, I was more pissed at my parents. In middle school, the teachers LOVED collective punishment. If a few kids acted up, THE ENTIRE FUCKING GRADE got silent lunch. We all hated the teachers much, much more. We hated the other kids too, but it was the teachers' laziness we couldn't stand. Sometimes entire classes got silent lunch because of the kids in the back row talking. Uuuugggghhhh this is bringing back bad memories of middle school.

But yeah, a 3 year old cannot possibly be aware of his/her actions and how they affect others. Neither can a 7 year old, for that matter. All the 7 year old will see is that Bitch Mommy and Fail Daddy won't let him/her have any fun because of what the 3 year old did.

Collective punishment should be punishable by life in prison. That's how strongly I feel about it.

[Buzzard]

I had a case once where there were 5 kids in the family. Mom believed that whenever a child misbehaved, all children got spanked. They were made to stand in line and she went down the line spanking them at an "age appropriate" level of force. One day the 4 year old lied about stealing a cookie. Mom lined up all the kids and spanked them. The 14 year old had a friend over (a girl) and she watched him be spanked - and cry.

I'll let you guess what the 14 year old did to the 4 year old later in the day that brought it to the attention of the DAs office... not a pretty story...

[debrand]

All this type of punishment will do is make siblings hate one another.

Even most die hard spankers won't hit a teenager. Hitting a fourteen year old in front ofhis girl friend is inexcusable

[fundiefan]

This goes a long way in teaching the kids about the 'group mentality' thing. All or nothing. With us or against us. Exactly as fundies believe life to be about. So, while I personally think it's crazy and not effective to punish all the kids for the actions of one, it falls right in with fundie life and mindset.

[formergothardite]

Doesn't naming your blog "modest mom" kind of take away the whole being modest thing? Bragging about being modest isn't very modest. And she also sucks as a parent.

[brashchick]

I had a case once where there were 5 kids in the family. Mom believed that whenever a child misbehaved, all children got spanked. They were made to stand in line and she went down the line spanking them at an "age appropriate" level of force. One day the 4 year old lied about stealing a cookie. Mom lined up all the kids and spanked them. The 14 year old had a friend over (a girl) and she watched him be spanked - and cry.

I'll let you guess what the 14 year old did to the 4 year old later in the day that brought it to the attention of the DAs office... not a pretty story...

OMG, I hope both kids were somewhat ok in the end,(and I realize it is probable they were NOT) and I hope guilt eats at the mother to her dying day.

[luckylassie]

I know that the fundie Pearl's teach essentially that children don't necessarily need to be capable of understanding their actions to be punished for them.

To me, it's one thing for a child that KNOWS what they are doing to be punished when they willfully do wrong. However, if the child has no way of knowing what they did was wrong then I would not punish them.

[bananacat]

This kind of reminds me of a teacher I had in elementary school. If a few kids acted up, then she would punish the entire class. I know that's a little different because she can't just leave one group of kids unattended while doing something with other group, but sometimes it was things like making us all wait to go to lunch or recess, even though the school already had a system for students who misbehaved to miss out on part of recess, so it really wasn't even necessary to punish us all. Anyway, aside from ranting there is a point to this story. If one or two kids were being bad, the rest of the class knew they would get punished anyway so they had no reason to bother being good. It really had contagious effect, where a few whispering kids would get the whole class talking and passing notes.

I think this particular mother is making the consequences this way to force the other kids to do her job for her. She doesn't have to bother correcting a child because all the other kids will step in and try to make their sibling behave. It's lazy and a weird psychological game.

I also think that most 3 year-olds do better with short-term consequences anyway. By age 4, most kids can understand something like this, but a lot of 3 year-olds will simply forget, or it will seem so far of that it's not important to them on the day they are misbehaving.

[Smooth Beans]

Oh, gawd. I HATE HATE HATE collective punishment. I spent so much time getting punished for stuff I did not do. All being threatened with a spanking because my howler monkey little brothers wouldn't shut up did was make me hate them for years.

It's not right.

[Kitty]

Oh, gawd. I HATE HATE HATE collective punishment. I spent so much time getting punished for stuff I did not do. All being threatened with a spanking because my howler monkey little brothers wouldn't shut up did was make me hate them for years.

It's not right.

I was always a well-behaved, quiet kid. So I wound up hating EVERYONE when I got punished for something other kids did. It's why I can barely get along with my sister, who often got in trouble, and why I fucking hate all but ONE teacher I had in middle school. I never knew who was misbehaving, so I directed my anger at the teachers.

[ElphabaGalinda]

My parents used to do things like that. Like, your sister broke the rules, so we're not going to the amusement park. I never did anything bad, so it just made me hate my parents. I'm a big believer in the punishment fitting the crime, or else no one learns anything. So if you didn't do anything wrong, and you get punished, what does that teach you? That your parents are unfair and there's nothing you can do to gain thei approval is what it taught me. Collective punishment would also probably make the person who did something wrong feel super guilty that they're ruining it for everyone. It's a lose lose situation.

[Kitty]

My parents used to do things like that. Like, your sister broke the rules, so we're not going to the amusement park. I never did anything bad, so it just made me hate my parents. I'm a big believer in the punishment fitting the crime, or else no one learns anything. So if you didn't do anything wrong, and you get punished, what does that teach you? That your parents are unfair and there's nothing you can do to gain thei approval is what it taught me. Collective punishment would also probably make the person who did something wrong feel super guilty that they're ruining it for everyone. It's a lose lose situation.

And the person who actually did do something wrong gets twice the punishment. So it's not really all that good for them either.

[ADoyle90815]

I was always a well-behaved, quiet kid. So I wound up hating EVERYONE when I got punished for something other kids did. It's why I can barely get along with my sister, who often got in trouble, and why I fucking hate all but ONE teacher I had in middle school. I never knew who was misbehaving, so I directed my anger at the teachers.

I had the same experience, and ended up hating those classmates whose behavior got the entire class punished.

[clibbyjo]

My parents used to do things like that. Like, your sister broke the rules, so we're not going to the amusement park. I never did anything bad, so it just made me hate my parents. I'm a big believer in the punishment fitting the crime, or else no one learns anything. So if you didn't do anything wrong, and you get punished, what does that teach you? That your parents are unfair and there's nothing you can do to gain thei approval is what it taught me. Collective punishment would also probably make the person who did something wrong feel super guilty that they're ruining it for everyone. It's a lose lose situation.

I agree. My 9 year old ate 1/2 a chocolate donut and lied to me saying he didn't have any because he wanted more than everyone else.(I was dividing them up equal) It was damn funny because his teeth were covered in chocolate and I was trying not to laugh. When I told him he is busted due to chocolate teeth,he did not get anymore donuts and the rest of us finished them all while he ate cereal. That was a fair punishment to me.

[Kitty]

I had the same experience, and ended up hating those classmates whose behavior got the entire class punished.

If I knew who the classmates were, I'd be mad at them, but it seldom seemed to be the same ones whenever we all kept getting silent lunch. The teachers were insane anyway, which made me hate them more, and to the present day.

[JesusFightClub]

Reading the school stories here brings back memories. The teachers at my high school used to threaten a collective punishment for us all, but never follow through with it...fears of hordes of irate parents put them off. Once our class was standing outside the door of a classroom and one kid said "This is fucking boring as shit, dare me to smash this window?" He did and the entire class, including himself, was conveniently looking the other way at the time. We did all get questioned, lectured etc for the whole class period but they couldn't hold us hostage - they had to let us out at the end, none the wiser as to the culprit.

It was more a bonding experience, like getting one over on authority. No one would have even dreamed of telling the teachers. Whereas with younger children without the sense of self or identity away from parents, it is only going to make them mistrust and hate their siblings. If three year old Kayden has to behave like a little angel constantly so seven year old Chardonnay gets to have fun with Mummy and Daddy, and if when he slips up she is punished for his infractions, there is going to be no love lost between them.

[emesbe]

In the 4th grade, my teacher was an ass. Seriously, he should not be a teacher. AFAIK, he is still teaching. He used to throw whatever he could get his hands on at students, once he threw a stapler and cracked a window. He would look down girl's shirts. Creeper.

Anyway, for some reason he thought I was the shiznit. I read anything I could get my hands on, and I was well-behaved. I can't remember how many times he would assign the whole class to writing sentences, and then would announce "Except for emesbe. She's going to grade papers/staple things". So guess what all the kids called me? Yah. I hate that man.

[Buzzard]

Just to play the devil's advocate - an enterprising little demon could actually use collective punishment to their benefit. Lets say my older sibling has their heart set on something, fucking it up lets me screw with my sibling. It actually GIVES the child power over the family, which is exactly against the fundie mindset.

Each individual needs to be responsible for their own actions. Jesus doesnt sit up in heaven and keep out the Anderson kids because their mom is an ass. "Sorry, no heaven today kiddies, mommy was baiting the people over at FJ! She was being hateful and judgmental again!" Arent we supposed to be emulating him??? (says the jew...)

[AmandaP]

I agree. My 9 year old ate 1/2 a chocolate donut and lied to me saying he didn't have any because he wanted more than everyone else.(I was dividing them up equal) It was damn funny because his teeth were covered in chocolate and I was trying not to laugh. When I told him he is busted due to chocolate teeth,he did not get anymore donuts and the rest of us finished them all while he ate cereal. That was a fair punishment to me.

Mmmm...Chocolate donuts....