Jessa, Ben, and Spurgeon part 4

[2manyKidzzz]

IT seems we saw a lot of time where they were NOT homeschooling....they were going on trips, walking on the countertops and such. And yes, I agree homeschooling can be done in fewer hours a day but it should be done properly for the children''s benefit. Oh.....they don't think of that!

[ClaraOswin]

I agree that I think real homeschoolers probably cringe seeing the Duggars version of homeschooling. Homeschooling is not something I would choose. But I can certainly see the benefits from it for some people.

But not in the Duggar family. Those kids would benefit from outside education.

[quiverofdoubt]

I'm humiliated that they call themselves homeschoolers, and that people watch the duggars and think that's what all homeschoolers do.  Some of us have actually done the hours and hours of leg work, including educating ourselves on education, how children learn best, how brains develop, and types of curriculum available.

the duggar's do not represent me, or any homeschooling family that i know personally. (other than one exception, where the mother is very religious, and for various reasons i believe is homeschooling for the wrong reason and her kids would benefit from being in ps when the time comes).

[MakeItSo]

I was not homeschooled but I can see the benefits for some. One of my buddies started homeschooling when we were 10 and his family decided it was best because he seemed to learn faster than most kids around him and in almost every subject. So it allowed him to be put on his own personalised fast track. Cool. Worked for him. He kept hanging out with the rest of us, riding bikes around the neighbourhood, playing hockey with us etc. He seemed well rounded and finished highschool by 15, then moved on to a community college. The problem with the Duggars, I see, is that they don't homeschool to ensure their kids get to learn at their own pace. They homeschool to prevent them from accessing certain (worldly) knowledge. So their growth isn't supported, it's stunted. 

[JenniferJuniper]

1 hour ago, quiverofdoubt said:

I'm humiliated that they call themselves homeschoolers, and that people watch the duggars and think that's what all homeschoolers do.  Some of us have actually done the hours and hours of leg work, including educating ourselves on education, how children learn best, how brains develop, and types of curriculum available.

the duggar's do not represent me, or any homeschooling family that i know personally. (other than one exception, where the mother is very religious, and for various reasons i believe is homeschooling for the wrong reason and her kids would benefit from being in ps when the time comes).

 

We've seen 14 year old James working with basic multiplication flash cards and a recent photo of nearly 12 year old Jackson apparently working with very basic addition/subtraction cards.

They aren't homeschooling.  They are noschooling.

 

[quiverofdoubt]

3 minutes ago, JenniferJuniper said:

 

We've seen 14 year old James working with basic multiplication flash cards and a recent photo of nearly 12 year old Jackson apparently working with very basic addition/subtraction cards.

They aren't homeschooling.  They are noschooling.

 

Exactly. I am more than understanding when a kid is behind in a subject, needs a refresher, or has learning disabilities. But from what we've seen they have at least several children, if not all, so incredibly far behind. Not every kid is a genius, and I think we push kids too hard to have passions and be prodigies, when most people are just....normal everyday average people.  But when your 11/12 year old needs to practice flashcards for 5+0, then something is horribly wrong. This is such a basic, primary concept- there should be no need to "practice" it. if he has a disability (other than his repressive parents that is) than they NEED to be getting him help.

[MakeItSo]

@JenniferJuniper noschooling just reminded me of "unschooling" and I just rolled my eyes so hard they fell out of my head...again. Not sure if anyone here has heard of that. I just learned about it on Youtube not too long ago (a kid was explaining it). I'll be right back...chasing my eyeballs down the road.

[Bad Wolf]

Yes, but I bet all you home schoolers out there don't teach bankruptcy to your kindergartners. Priorities, people. 

[Carol]

Their homeschooling isn't built around individual children, it's all for one and one for all.  Equal to that is their lack of socialization.  They don't get to make the friends they want, they get the friends who are raised exactly as they are.  They don't get playgrounds, recess, passing notes in class, being silly, being bratty, being interested in a particular subject and encouraged in it, losing friends, changing friends, talking about boys/girls, exceeding at sports, learning about other cultures, etc...there are so many things that come with maturing from childhood to teens and into adulthood they've missed that leave gaping holes in their mental, social and emotional development.  They're groomed more than they are taught.

[twinmama]

1 hour ago, MakeItSo said:

@JenniferJuniper noschooling just reminded me of "unschooling" and I just rolled my eyes so hard they fell out of my head...again. Not sure if anyone here has heard of that. I just learned about it on Youtube not too long ago (a kid was explaining it). I'll be right back...chasing my eyeballs down the road.

I've heard of it, and even that I think can educate a child sufficiently if the parent is committed to providing them with educational experiences and putting in the effort necessary. I'm not saying let your kid be 15 and never hand them a book, but letting the child lead the learning is a valid option IMO.

It is certainly not unschooling, but my 4 year olds go to a nature preschool that is Reggio Emilia based, they don't know letters or numbers, the entire thing is child led, but they are developing and learning amazing things based on their own initiatives, and those of their classmates. I love the concept, and I dread when they go to public elementary school and start the decades of flashcards and worksheets based learning.

[JenniferJuniper]

1 hour ago, twinmama said:

It is certainly not unschooling, but my 4 year olds go to a nature preschool that is Reggio Emilia based, they don't know letters or numbers, the entire thing is child led, but they are developing and learning amazing things based on their own initiatives, and those of their classmates. I love the concept, and I dread when they go to public elementary school and start the decades of flashcards and worksheets based learning.

I went to what I guess you'd consider to be a "progressive" public school in the early to mid '70's from grades 2 - 6.  Open classrooms and self-directed learning.  There were bean bag chairs in the corner and a covered reading "dome" in the center of one room filled with cool books.  I can still see myself sitting in there on a bean bag chair reading "A Wrinkle in Time" instead of attending a math lesson.

Junior High with it's desks in straight rows and Warriner's English Grammar books was a total shock to the system.

 

[MakeItSo]

2 hours ago, twinmama said:

I've heard of it, and even that I think can educate a child sufficiently if the parent is committed to providing them with educational experiences and putting in the effort necessary. I'm not saying let your kid be 15 and never hand them a book, but letting the child lead the learning is a valid option IMO.

It is certainly not unschooling, but my 4 year olds go to a nature preschool that is Reggio Emilia based, they don't know letters or numbers, the entire thing is child led, but they are developing and learning amazing things based on their own initiatives, and those of their classmates. I love the concept, and I dread when they go to public elementary school and start the decades of flashcards and worksheets based learning.

I'm all for kid-led learning...let them show you how they want to access information etc but I would not compare your kids' preschool with unschooling, not sure why. Maybe because the only kids I've heard talk about it online were 14 or 15...not preschool age. I don't know I guess it would depend on how driven the child is and how involved the parents are. Most of the stories I've read about/heard have been online and all just seemed like they didn't want to put in the work and so they just focused on one subject that they had a natural interest in and that's it. It just seemed incredibly unbalanced. 

[Shadoewolf]

With my son's emotional and learning disabilities we did the Arkansas Virtual Academy for a few months before we moved back up north.  State approved and they provide you with all the books to read, workbooks to do pages out of, blocks for math, science equipment (that was a really cool box to open!) and access to Study Island. My son could easily finish all his work in about 3 hours, and any time we spent out doing fun stuff (like the zoo, art museums, etc) counted toward his required hours for the week. It was incredible and he learned so much, so fast!  When tested at his new school, he is significantly ahead in math and almost on target for reading. Instead of teaching him normal music, we had him listening to and identifying different types of music like classical, techno, rock. Hearing him sing Queen's "Bohemian Rhapsody" is awesome.  His soccer league,  shooting bows and going to the park on nice days counted for PE.  It is possible to do homeschooling well, but I don't see it with the Duggars at all!

[quiverofdoubt]

6 minutes ago, MakeItSo said:

I'm all for kid-led learning...let them show you how they want to access information etc but I would not compare your kids' preschool with unschooling, not sure why. Maybe because the only kids I've heard talk about it online were 14 or 15...not preschool age. I don't know I guess it would depend on how driven the child is and how involved the parents are. Most of the stories I've read about/heard have been online and all just seemed like they didn't want to put in the work and so they just focused on one subject that they had a natural interest in and that's it. It just seemed incredibly unbalanced. 

True unschooling takes more work from the parents than a boxed curriculum with everything spelled out.  It takes huge effort, actually. Between driving kids to various activities, more than most, scheduling a huge variety of events/projects/outings, making sure the important subjects get covered. It's a lot of work. Yes, some kids really do get stuck into a certain topic for awhile, most kids do don't they? and they delve deep into it.  It's then a collaboration between the parents and the child to make sure that topic helps them learn about all different subjects. If you have a child that is say, obsessed with horses you could use that to teach: history (how have horses been used throughout time, in war time, the process of domestication), science (the biology and evolution of horses) math (calculating speed, information about horses gaits, cost of horses, the math would depend on the child's current level) pe (riding lessons) art (using lessons learned in biology to draw accurate horses) and so on and so forth. Lots of great field trips would be taking place as well around the subject.

the main idea is that children WANT to learn- most children are driven to learn. You don't have to force a typically developing baby to learn to talk or walk, or a preschooler to "do it myself!". They are driven to learn about the world around them and to interact with it.  That drive is squashed out of them after hour upon hour of sitting at a desk filing in worksheets, with little to no recess (the us has very little recess compared to the rest of the world).   Many kids in public school learn to hate learning, and part of it is that they never get to explore things that interest them personally. They burn out fast.  Unschooling is a way to counteract that, and allow children to rediscover their passion for learning, take back control and initiative in their own education.

the duggars use their homeschooling to do the opposite: to thoroughly kill any desire to learn, explore or discover out of their children. That is NOT unschooling.  they are just sort of....existing. doing the absolute bare minimum when it comes to anything other than their "wisdom booklets". and how knows how thoroughly they are doing that anymore.

[MakeItSo]

@quiverofdoubt again, I am sure that, as with homeschooling, there are families who can not only make it work but also really benefit from it. I don't doubt that. I don't have any experience with it myself. I just go by the vlogs those teens posted explaining what it is and few docu type youtube videos I've seen and in the grand scheme of things it just came across as a good idea. *shrugs*

[anotherone]

2 hours ago, twinmama said:

 but they are developing and learning amazing things based on their own initiatives, and those of their classmates. I love the concept, and I dread when they go to public elementary school and start the decades of flashcards and worksheets based learning.

Well I guess it depends what the child wants to do in the future.  If you want to be an engineer, taking math in the order that it is standard in public schools is necessary.  You need to master arithmetic basics in grade/middle school, and algebra, geometry and trig are necessary for calculus.  You need to start calculus as a freshman in college because you have a full schedule of classes for the four years to prepare you for advanced engineering classes, especially electrical and mechanical, in grad school. 

I guess I haven't seen a better way to get 1-8th grade math concepts taught well without flashcards and worksheets, basically tons and tons of practice problems.  I've taught and tutored 1-1 at the college level and when kids balk at doing problems, they usually don't get the concepts down.

Now I think that anything but math/science can be taught better using the student-led creative kind of way.  But you're probably going to be stuck with some level of worksheets, etc., if they want to get into a technical field.

[Chickenbutt]

This kid was on Child Genius this season and he is "unschooled"

http://web.poptower.com/jaden-fragoso-child-genius.htm

[MakeItSo]

4 minutes ago, Chickenbutt said:

This kid was on Child Genius this season and he is "unschooled"

http://web.poptower.com/jaden-fragoso-child-genius.htm

I remember the kid. Watched the show with my roomies.

[Chickenbutt]

I actually watched both seasons and I love it. I found it very interesting that these very intelligent kids seem to have a whole different set of issues: need for validation, lack of social skills, general snottiness etc. But I was nervous for them and I found some of it heartbreaking. Some of these kids were so devastated when they were eliminated that it seemed their whole self worth was tied up in the competition.

[MakeItSo]

7 minutes ago, Chickenbutt said:

I actually watched both seasons and I love it. I found it very interesting that these very intelligent kids seem to have a whole different set of issues: need for validation, lack of social skills, general snottiness etc. But I was nervous for them and I found some of it heartbreaking. Some of these kids were so devastated when they were eliminated that it seemed their whole self worth was tied up in the competition.

It made me mad sometimes when the parents would push a kid to the point where he/she wasn't enjoying themselves anymore. I thought a lot of times the children were very highly self-motivated but there were a few families on both seasons where the kids seemed more scared to disappoint their parents than themselves. Really interesting to see all their personalities through it all, too for sure.

 

ETA: every kid needs a kick in the butt sometimes to succeed, but I felt some were a little...super pushy haha. Also, so much of it was staged for the show. It was almost painful sometimes haha I would also be super proud of my kid for even just making it that far and continue to try to encourage them. The way some parents were anything but encouraging when their kid did poorly sometimes I thought was heartbreaking

[quiverofdoubt]

7 minutes ago, Chickenbutt said:

I actually watched both seasons and I love it. I found it very interesting that these very intelligent kids seem to have a whole different set of issues: need for validation, lack of social skills, general snottiness etc. But I was nervous for them and I found some of it heartbreaking. Some of these kids were so devastated when they were eliminated that it seemed their whole self worth was tied up in the competition.

I would keep in mind that the order wasn't: unschooled, then discovered competition, then made it their life.  It's generally the opposite path with these competitions. the children/parents have a certain competition take over their life, and find that other activities and school gets in the way. so they drop out and focus on the competition and call it unschooling. You see similar stories with the spelling bee/bible bee/pageants/olympic hopefuls etc. Not really healthy for anyone imo, to be so intensely focused on one competition and have your whole image/self worth wrapped up into it.

[Chickenbutt]

One of the things I remember most about this season was Sam begging his father to validate his performance. "I did good, didn't I dad?" "But I did good, right dad?" Just over and over again. Some parents were way more invested in the competition than their child. The winner, Adrian, seemed to have a good grasp on his life and a good balance, of his own choosing. Altho, I thought he needed more physical activity and more socialization. But he and his mom seemed in synch and he seemed the most well adjusted.

@quiverofdoubtRather than the true focus of the competition, I find the personalities and parent/child interactions more interesting. But yes, I see the order of progression of competitions involving children.

[twinmama]

54 minutes ago, anotherone said:

Well I guess it depends what the child wants to do in the future.  If you want to be an engineer, taking math in the order that it is standard in public schools is necessary.  You need to master arithmetic basics in grade/middle school, and algebra, geometry and trig are necessary for calculus.  You need to start calculus as a freshman in college because you have a full schedule of classes for the four years to prepare you for advanced engineering classes, especially electrical and mechanical, in grad school. 

I guess I haven't seen a better way to get 1-8th grade math concepts taught well without flashcards and worksheets, basically tons and tons of practice problems.  I've taught and tutored 1-1 at the college level and when kids balk at doing problems, they usually don't get the concepts down.

Now I think that anything but math/science can be taught better using the student-led creative kind of way.  But you're probably going to be stuck with some level of worksheets, etc., if they want to get into a technical field.

That all makes sense. I am probably lookoing at it from my POV as a creative person. I took all of the math courses, up to Honors Calculus, in high school and did really well in them (math nerd! Woot!), but I got a liberal arts degree, then a masters in film production so all the math practice was basically useless for me. Though I am looking forward to my kids being in algebra because I loved solving those problems, they're like puzzles! 

1 hour ago, quiverofdoubt said:

 Many kids in public school learn to hate learning, and part of it is that they never get to explore things that interest them personally. They burn out fast.

This is one thing I worry about a bit. I remember in school just hating every single book we had to read for class, no matter what it was. I could have so easily started to hate reading and avoid it in the future. But thank goodness for Baby Sitters Club and books that caught my eye because my mom was NUTS about taking us to the public library. I always say I love reading, no thanks to anything I read in school. 

[CorruptionInc.]

5 hours ago, MakeItSo said:

@JenniferJuniper noschooling just reminded me of "unschooling" and I just rolled my eyes so hard they fell out of my head...again. Not sure if anyone here has heard of that. I just learned about it on Youtube not too long ago (a kid was explaining it). I'll be right back...chasing my eyeballs down the road.

I know two girls who were / are unschooled. 

Their parents travel almost constantly for work.

Both girls are clearly educated and can speak well and mostly use correct grammar for a 16-year-old and 11-year-old.

The 11-year-old started high school this year whereas the 16-year-old has commenced a job and work experience; however she IS qualified to apply for university, TAFE etc. should she wish to. 

They both have an amazing wealth of knowledge and love to learn about other cultures, often writing eloquently about their experiences. 

Can't say I know of a Duggar who is like that!

Apart from maybe Deanna - she seems to be the only one that goes to work.

[ClaraOswin]

2 hours ago, quiverofdoubt said:

a typically developing baby to learn to talk or walk, or a preschooler to "do it myself!"

*sigh*  I get so depressed reading stuff like this. I guess I'll never know what it's like to have a "typical" child.