Duggars by the Dozen - General Discussion Part 16

[EmCatlyn]

33 minutes ago, Mothership said:

Surgically speaking, you're correct.  But, it is a violation and it's a violation that's being perpetrated for control.  That is the same justification used for FGM.

I would also caution that  "no permanent inability to enjoy sex" is a statement I would never want to use when speaking about sexual assault of any kind.

 

I am not justifying this (to me) bizarre practice in any way, but if the bride submits to it willingly and regards it as a normal rite of passage I don't think it is any more "assault" than a gynecologist's examination.  (Genital mutilation, on the other hand, not only has lasting physical effects but is rarely performed on a consenting subject, even if it is typically performed by women.)

Yes, to us it would feel like "assault" but then a nineteenth century American woman might have looked at a Pap smear as "assault."

The preoccupation with the hymen annoys me, but the ritual "deflowering" by an elder woman instead of the bridegroom actually symbolizes that the girl's virginity is the concern of the women not the men.  Effectively, it is not consummation of the marriage but the ritual of deflowering controlled by female elders which defines the bride's passage from maiden to wife.  (Contrast this with the "purity culture" where the girl's "purity" is symbolically controlled and monitored by men.)

Further, I bet that the young women in many cases may prefer to lose the hymen in this fashion than during the consummation of marriage.  They don't have to approach first sexual experience fearing pain.  

It isn't what we are used to, but if the bride consents and knows what to expect, how can it be assault?  

[ksgranola1]

Quote

 

Hopefully, most young grooms don't go charging in there like a bull in a china shop.  It would hopefully be a gradual & gentle deflowering. This 'older women' ritual cannot be very comfortable. I asked my OB if he couldn't just "poke a whole in it" when it wouldn't give & he said he wasn't that brave. We did hymenectomies in the OR all the time & it was always done under general anesthesia.

[Mothership]

2 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

 

It isn't what we are used to, but if the bride consents and knows what to expect, how can it be assault?  

This is where the conversation about FGM gets very complicated.  I have heard ethicists, whom i respect a great deal, argue that we are judging it by western standards and not being cultural sensitive.  She argued that the girls know what they're going to experience, know that it will be painful and submit because their culture tells them they should.    Is it still assault?

On this board, we question the knoweldge of the Duggar J'slaves all the time.  Would Jana agree to be the sister mom if she only knew she had options?  Would Anna really stay with Josh if she was raised in a household that educated her, respected her opinion and told her she was more than just a womb and a blow up sex toy?

So, do young girls who submit to FGM agree to do so with full knowledge AND do the girls that submit to the hymen ritual do so with full knowledge?  Can someone truly consent without complete knowledge and is it actually consent if she doesn't think she has other options?

I can only judge the situation from my own standards and knowledge and I think having someone stretch/break/check my hymen as part of a ritual would feel like assault.

[justoneoftwo]

9 minutes ago, Mothership said:

This is where the conversation about FGM gets very complicated.  I have heard ethicists, whom i respect a great deal, argue that we are judging it by western standards and not being cultural sensitive.  She argued that the girls know what they're going to experience, know that it will be painful and submit because their culture tells them they should.    Is it still assault?

On this board, we question the knoweldge of the Duggar J'slaves all the time.  Would Jana agree to be the sister mom if she only knew she had options?  Would Anna really stay with Josh if she was raised in a household that educated her, respected her opinion and told her she was more than just a womb and a blow up sex toy?

So, do young girls who submit to FGM agree to do so with full knowledge AND do the girls that submit to the hymen ritual do so with full knowledge?  Can someone truly consent without complete knowledge and is it actually consent if she doesn't think she has other options?

I can only judge the situation from my own standards and knowledge and I think having someone stretch/break/check my hymen as part of a ritual would feel like assault.

This is a really interesting problem.  I personally don't agree with moral relativism, although I realize thats a very slippery slope I'm on.  I suppose we should also ask what are options?  What is full knowledge?  How would one truly consent to much of anything once we start asking these questions?  I have no answers, I just appreciate you bring up an interesting problem.

[Mothership]

The best part of FJ @justoneoftwo is how we can go from snark to ethical dilemmas and back to snark in just a matter of minutes!  

I'll add that I have the same dilemma discussing prostitution:  does any woman really choose it?  Does legalizing it make sex workers safer? Is it really just another example of power over women being disguised as sexual freedom? I've read fascinating articles with both sides offered by sex workers and people who have worked in agencies to provide support (and in some cases escape) for sex workers.  I can have a debate with no one else in the room!

And now back to snark...what will we do here at FJ if TLC doesn't renew?

[Cleopatra7]

1 hour ago, Mothership said:

This is where the conversation about FGM gets very complicated.  I have heard ethicists, whom i respect a great deal, argue that we are judging it by western standards and not being cultural sensitive.  She argued that the girls know what they're going to experience, know that it will be painful and submit because their culture tells them they should.    Is it still assault?

On this board, we question the knoweldge of the Duggar J'slaves all the time.  Would Jana agree to be the sister mom if she only knew she had options?  Would Anna really stay with Josh if she was raised in a household that educated her, respected her opinion and told her she was more than just a womb and a blow up sex toy?

So, do young girls who submit to FGM agree to do so with full knowledge AND do the girls that submit to the hymen ritual do so with full knowledge?  Can someone truly consent without complete knowledge and is it actually consent if she doesn't think she has other options?

I can only judge the situation from my own standards and knowledge and I think having someone stretch/break/check my hymen as part of a ritual would feel like assault.

I find it hard to believe that five, six, and seven year old girls or even slightly older tweens and teens really understand what FGM entails. They make think that undergoing it makes them "mature" or a "woman" in the eyes of their community, but they don't understand the physical and emotional ramifications of what FGM will do to them. It must be reiterated that there are no health benefits to FGM, only health problems.

Quote

FGM has no health benefits, and it harms girls and women in many ways. It involves removing and damaging healthy and normal female genital tissue, and interferes with the natural functions of girls' and women's bodies.

Immediate complications can include severe pain, shock, haemorrhage (bleeding), tetanus or sepsis (bacterial infection), urine retention, open sores in the genital region and injury to nearby genital tissue.

- Long-term consequences can include:

- recurrent bladder and urinary tract infections;

- cysts;

- infertility;

- an increased risk of childbirth complications and newborn deaths;

- the need for later surgeries. For example, the FGM procedure that seals or narrows a vaginal opening (type 3 above) needs to be cut open later to allow for sexual intercourse and childbirth. Sometimes it is stitched again several times, including after childbirth, hence the woman goes through repeated opening and closing procedures, further increasing and repeated both immediate and long-term risks.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/

If a young girl said she wanted to purposely main and cripple herself in any other context, no responsible adult would agree to it. Just because FGM is considered "culture" and "tradition" in some places does not make it above criticism, especially when there are no benefits at all to this practice.

If you have any doubts about the dangers of FGM, just think of the foot binding that was imposed on millions of Chinese girls and women in imperial China. Normal sized female were considered unattractive and unfeminine, causing many women to break their daughter's feet in childhood so they would be tiny, dainty, and crippled for life:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot_binding

The world is definitely better off for having ditched this misogynistic practice. If foot binding could be eliminated, so can FGM. No woman or girl should have to handicap themselves to be accepted by their communities.

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, Mothership said:This is where the conversation about FGM gets very complicated.  I have heard ethicists, whom i respect a great deal, argue that we are judging it by western standards and not being cultural sensitive.  She argued that the girls know what they're going to experience, know that it will be painful and submit because their culture tells them they should.    Is it still assault?On this board, we question the knoweldge of the Duggar J'slaves all the time.  Would Jana agree to be the sister mom if she only knew she had options?  Would Anna really stay with Josh if she was raised in a household that educated her, respected her opinion and told her she was more than just a womb and a blow up sex toy?

So, do young girls who submit to FGM agree to do so with full knowledge AND do the girls that submit to the hymen ritual do so with full knowledge?  Can someone truly consent without complete knowledge and is it actually consent if she doesn't think she has other options?

As someone else has already stated, it is a big distance from ritual deflowering to FGM.   

The rupture of the hymen is something that any woman who has sexual intercourse will experience.  Since in the normal way of things women have to have intercourse in order to get pregnant and since the continuation of the human race requires that women get pregnant, I think we can safely say that there is nothing particularly unnatural about "deflowering."  FGM involves removing parts of the woman's body.  It is something that goes against nature.  So I feel we should discuss their impact on women separately.

The question then is: When is "deflowering" assault?

Most of us would agree that two consenting adults engaged in mutually pleasurable sexual gratification is the ideal situation for the rupture of the hymen.  

Are all other situations assault?    Who decides?

To me "informed consent" is the key.  I leave it to others to determine whether the young brides who are deflowered in a woman-run ritual can give "informed consent" or not, but I suggest that the young women themselves feel that they have consented and they probably have the basic information (that it will hurt and that they will bleed).  Presumably most of them only have a thin, somewhat stretchy membrane, not a thick plug of flesh to rupture. (As noted by others, the hymen that needs medical help to be ruptured is rare--and it can't be ruptured by normal intercourse either.)  They are participating in something that their mothers and sisters and friends participate in. They may be nervous, but I don't think most of them will experience it as assault.  Some will-- but some women in similar cultures perceive the wedding night as an "assault."

Would I have felt that it was assault to have my future MIL or some "wise woman" deflower me?  I don't know about assault, but if you had asked for my consent and persuaded me that it was a good idea, it still would have felt emotionally weird.  But I am the product of a culture that thinks such a ritual is bizarre.   If I had grown up expecting the ritual, though . . .

You are right that with the Duggars we often point out that the young adults raised in the cult do not have the knowledge to refuse or consent to some of the things they are indoctrinated to accept.  But we should recognize that even if our judgment is right, their feelings might be different from ours. (That is, they may be victims, but they may not feel like victims.)

Just thinking aloud here.  

[albanuadh_1]

Off topic but is anyone else having a problem getting into the chat room?

[Front Hugging Fiend]

18 hours ago, InThePrayerCloset said:

Is this hospital in a location in Harry Potter? Think "ward 9 and 3/4"? sorry not wanting to out a fellow aussie...

hahahaha not quite! - but I like the way you think. 

Let's just say I get really into State of Origin and I wear maroon.

[OnceUponATime]

3 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

The question then is: When is "deflowering" assault?

Most of us would agree that two consenting adults engaged in mutually pleasurable sexual gratification is the ideal situation for the rupture of the hymen.  

Are all other situations assault?    Who decides?

To me "informed consent" is the key.  I leave it to others to determine whether the young brides who are deflowered in a woman-run ritual can give "informed consent" or not, but I suggest that the young women themselves feel that they have consented and they probably have the basic information (that it will hurt and that they will bleed).

I find this interesting because I think one aspect missing here is the social pressure. Would coerced/pressured informed consent still be consent enough to not classify as assault? If someone was to so "no I do not consent to that" what are the consequences of their non-consent? To me at least that plays a role in whether consent was really consent. I say this on a general level because I don't know any facts about the situation being discussed to know if this is an issue

10 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

 

Yes, to us it would feel like "assault" but then a nineteenth century American woman might have looked at a Pap smear as "assault."

I grew up in a crazy mindfuck of purity messages. You have no idea how violated(not assaulted) I feel during a pap smear because of that. I am hoping that they really quickly develop home testing that you send off (currently they are researching it) so I can avoid that anxiety every few years.

[InThePrayerCloset]

4 hours ago, Front Hugging Fiend said:

hahahaha not quite! - but I like the way you think. 

Let's just say I get really into State of Origin and I wear maroon.

haha... i take it your banana is bent then?  

There's a Sydney hospital that has a very similar philosophy - my endocrinologist there is a staff specialist and is well published in comparing various types of contraceptive and the benefits to certain groups like teens, women with diabetes etc. Morning after pill is offered routinely in the ED, and they simply do not offer OB. Everything else is catholic in name only... The Hospice lead the world on HIV/AIDS in the 80s, 90s and even today, and the hospital is very well represented at the gay mardi gras...

run by my kind of nuns!

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, OnceUponATime said:

I find this interesting because I think one aspect missing here is the social pressure. Would coerced/pressured informed consent still be consent enough to not classify as assault? If someone was to so "no I do not consent to that" what are the consequences of their non-consent? To me at least that plays a role in whether consent was really consent. I say this on a general level because I don't know any facts about the situation being discussed to know if this is an issue

I grew up in a crazy mindfuck of purity messages. You have no idea how violated(not assaulted) I feel during a pap smear because of that. I am hoping that they really quickly develop home testing that you send off (currently they are researching it) so I can avoid that anxiety every few years.

Thanks for your reply.  It sort of goes to my point (or more precisely, my question) about whether we should define "assault" by how we view it or by how the woman experiences it.  I honestly don't know, but it occurs to me that we are looking for a simple label (assault/not assault) while the experience is complex.

Yes, the element of social pressure cannot be discounted.  Coerced consent is not the same as informed consent.  And there are also different levels or degrees of pressure/coercion which would also affect how a bride experiences something like this.  I suspect it varies.

Gynecological exams can be very unpleasant even for those who don't have unusual inhibitions.  Yet we don't classify them (or, I hope, experience them) as assault.  In your case you feel violated, but you recognize the medical benefits and consent.  (Though you naturally hope for an alternative.).   Could a parallel case be made for the young bride who doesn't particularly want a strange woman's finger in her vagina but who believes it is necessary because her culture says it is?  Is her consent "informed" or is she a victim because no one has told her there is a different way to be deflowered?

For me, the answers are not clear.  

[Sundaymorning]

Now that their buddy Huckabee has left the race, who will the Duggars support?

I mean, any candidate who isn't absolutely nuts would run as fast as possible in the opposite direction if the Duggars would approach him, but the thing is, many Republican candidates are certified nutjobs.

So what do you think, whom will the Duggars support and how will the candidate react to that?

[notfundy]

Now that their buddy Huckabee has left the race, who will the Duggars support?

I mean, any candidate who isn't absolutely nuts would run as fast as possible in the opposite direction if the Duggars would approach him, but the thing is, many Republican candidates are certified nutjobs.

So what do you think, whom will the Duggars support and how will the candidate react to that?

Well is Santorum still in?

Either he or Ted Cruz would meet their needs I would think. Ha... Glad Huckabee dropped out. Can't stand him.

[Bad Wolf]

Ted Cruz. Get rid of Obamacare, limit abortion and gay marriage.

Our church is celebrating its first gay marriage this Sunday. A wonderful couple who have been together 40 years. It's about time.

[Sundaymorning]

2 minutes ago, notfundy said:

Well is Santorum still in?

Either he or Ted Cruz would meet their needs I would think. Ha... Glad Huckabee dropped out. Can't stand him.

Santorum didn't back the Duggars when Joshgate 1.0 happend. On the contrary, he was quite clear that he was disgusted by their behaviour.

Another thing: could a new, conservative President possibly do any harm to gay marriage? I know they all promise to abolish it, but would they be actually able to?

[notfundy]

A new conservative president would find it difficult to overturn marriage equality. The matter was settled by the Supreme Court (still recognised as the highest law in the land regardless of what Huckabee and Cruz might say). So I think it is unlikely and certainly not within the power of a President acting alone.

I worry more for a woman's right to safe reproductive choices.

Oh.. Thanx for the reminder about Santorum... Forgot about that

[HarryPotterFan]

Can we just clone Ruth Bader Ginsberg? We can have a few in the Supreme Court, throw a bunch of her in congress and the senate...and then she can run for president with Bill Nye the Science Guy as her VP.

[ksgranola1]

I think Santorum went down, too. Word is, that Hillary would like to appoint Barak Obama to the Supreme Court. He's very fair-minded & would be great. But a Republican congress would find every excuse in the book to block him.

What would the country be like if Jim-Bob was in the WH?

Hmmmm....

[TheChibi]

6 hours ago, Sundaymorning said:

Now that their buddy Huckabee has left the race, who will the Duggars support?

I mean, any candidate who isn't absolutely nuts would run as fast as possible in the opposite direction if the Duggars would approach him, but the thing is, many Republican candidates are certified nutjobs.

So what do you think, whom will the Duggars support and how will the candidate react to that?

I'm pretty sure I saw a photo of either JD or Joe wearing a Ted Cruz shirt (sitting at a piano I think?).

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, ksgranola1 said:

I think Santorum went down, too. Word is, that Hillary would like to appoint Barak Obama to the Supreme Court. He's very fair-minded & would be great. But a Republican congress would find every excuse in the book to block him.

What would the country be like if Jim-Bob was in the WH?

Hmmmm....

OMFG, can you see that crew trashing the WH (The Peoples' House)? 

[gustava]

1 hour ago, TheChibi said:

I'm pretty sure I saw a photo of either JD or Joe wearing a Ted Cruz shirt (sitting at a piano I think?).

So far, there record of supporting winners is.......

[calimojo]

On 2/1/2016 at 1:14 AM, Front Hugging Fiend said:

This is really interesting to me. May I ask what country you're from? I'm in Australia and I regularly attend a Catholic private hospital here - they may have a crucifix in every room but when I went in for ovarian cysts and what not, they offered BC and a whole range of options for me. They were very open. I believe they don't perform non-emergent abortions past 17-20 weeks or so (can't quite remember actual timeframe but it's around that ballpark) but they do for emergent situations where the mother's life is at risk - not necessarily forcing the mother to 'deliver'. 

The morning after pill is prescribed and given if need be. There aren't any restrictions on medication for that sort of thing based on the values of the Church - even if the hospital itself is still owned and overseen by the Church (or a subsidiary).

Sorry,  I don't get the chance to visit the site everyday.  I am from the US, the midwest region.  My experience at Catholic hospitals is from about 15 years ago, so maybe something have changed, but I don't get that impression

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

I had my tubes tied at a Catholic hospital 5 years ago. (Western U.S.A.) My OB had to fill out some extra paperwork, if I recall correctly. I can't speak to their other policies regarding birth control, etc. (My OB was Seventh Day Adventist, FWIW.)

[NeverQuivered]

4 hours ago, SassyPants said:

OMFG, can you see that crew trashing the WH (The Peoples' House)? 

Barefoot unkept children running amok. Dear gawd. 

3 hours ago, gustava said:

So far, there record of supporting winners is.......

Praise Jesus for that!