Duggars by the Dozen - General Discussion Part 16

[EmCatlyn]

6 hours ago, Thorns said:

So, slivers of membrane, yes, and a few has a imperforate version, but the "mainstream" hymen as a anatomical structure, no. 

I don't know what you mean by anatomical structure, and I don't believe that the "mainstream" idea of the hymen is of an imperforate structure. (Think of it folks.  Menstruation needs to come out, even when women are virgins.).

I think that people forget that the "bloody sheet" doesn't just have blood on it--it has semen.  The mixture of blood and semen (not just blood) is the "proof" of consummation.  The bloodstain is bigger (and lighter) than if it were just blood. 

As for the membrane, whether it is considered an "anatomical structure" or not, the point is that it is different for different women.  Like other relatively unimportant pieces of flesh in the human body (the frenulum of the tongue, for example) it comes in a variety of designs.  We don't pay much attention to the tongue frenulum except when it interferes with speech ( the literal sense of "tongue tied") or limits a person's ability to extend his/her tongue in kissing etc.  I wish we could lose our obsession with the hymen.

[ven]

They should look at Mexico for Some inspiration , the Mother in  law will break the hymen with a white cloth and display it for everyone to see whilst the bride is lying on a bed . This way she is certain the girl is worthy and a virgin . The son can do it later with his "certified " virgin ! 

[EmCatlyn]

4 minutes ago, ven said:

They should look at Mexico for Some inspiration , the Mother in  law will break the hymen with a white cloth and display it for everyone to see whilst the bride is lying on a bed . This way she is certain the girl is worthy and a virgin . The son can do it later with his "certified " virgin ! 

Please be specific about where in Mexico and among whom.  My cousin was married in Mexico and this sort of thing did NOT happen among the urban middle-classes.  Nor have I heard of it among colleagues from Mexico.

I know you don't mean any harm, but attributing what happens in non-mainstream communities to the whole country can be problematic.  Maybe this is a tradition somewhere in Mexico,  but I doubt it is "typical" of Mexico in general.   (In the rural South, we have people who incorporate snakes into Christian worship.  But most in the South would object to "Southerners practice snake handling to illustrate the power of Jesus.")

[ven]

38 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

Please be specific about where in Mexico and among whom.  My cousin was married in Mexico and this sort of thing did NOT happen among the urban middle-classes.  Nor have I heard of it among colleagues from Mexico.

 

Juchitan de Zaragoza, btw a village where women have a higher position then men . It's in the Deep South 

[EmCatlyn]

5 minutes ago, ven said:

Juchitan de Zaragoza, btw a village where women have a higher position then men . It's in the Deep South [of Mexico].

 

Thanks for clarifying.  As I said, a lot of statements about " in-such-and-such a place" can be misleading.  The practice of an indigenous group in Oaxaca is not representative of Mexico as a whole.

The idea that "women have a higher position than men" doesn't fit in my mind with excessive preoccupation with virginity, but it does seem that it is a culture where women have a stronger voice in the community than most other Mexican communities.  However, we have to be careful where we get our data:

From Wikipedia 

Quote

Juchitán gained international attention when an article in Elle magazine called Juchitán, "The Last Matriarchy". Many Juchitecas were angry about the article, saying it distorts what life is really like in Juchitán. Groups of women demanded that a local storekeeper stop selling the magazine issue. 

Juchitan de Zaragoza (Wikipedia)

 

 

[ven]

I did not claim it was a tradition all over mexico, however,  u just killed my dream of just another place where  women just have a slight social advantage, i will focus myself on Akan , Ghana for now so i can lick my wounds. . ....

[snarkykitty]

On 1/27/2016 at 6:47 PM, Cassielfsw said:

I'm talking about how many hospitals in the US are now owned by the Catholic Church and accordingly refuse to provide birth control, emergency BC in case of rape, or any abortion care regardless of reason, even if they are the only hospital for miles and the mother's health or life is at stake.

Please provide evidence of your claims, because this is the information I found:

12.6% of hospitals in the US are Catholic run/owned, serving 15% of hospitalized patients.

According to the ALCU, the doctors in any hospital - Catholic or not - make decisions. The hospital CANNOT refuse to perform life-saving abortions, provide emergency services, or abortion care.
 

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, ven said:

I did not claim it was a tradition all over mexico, however,  u just killed my dream of just another place where  women just have a slight social advantage, i will focus myself on Akan , Ghana for now so i can lick my wounds. . ....

In your original message you said "look at Mexico for Some inspiration , the Mother in  law will break the hymen with a white cloth and display it for everyone to see. . ."  I took that to suggest that you meant all or most of Mexico.

Regarding the question of whether the women of Juchitan do or don't have "a slight social advantage," it is probable they do, compared to other communities where traditional patriarchy has a stronger grip.  But I wouldn't say that a culture where the groom's mother is involved in checking a bride's virginity is showing strong matriarchal characteristics.

Anyway, sorry if I ruined your dreams.

[gustava]

3 hours ago, snarkykitty said:

Please provide evidence of your claims, because this is the information I found:

12.6% of hospitals in the US are Catholic run/owned, serving 15% of hospitalized patients.

According to the ALCU, the doctors in any hospital - Catholic or not - make decisions. The hospital CANNOT refuse to perform life-saving abortions, provide emergency services, or abortion care.
 

https://www.aclu.org/blog/speak-freely/fighting-emergency-care-pregnant-women-catholic-hospitals

[calimojo]

Having worked in 2 different Catholic Hospitals, I can definitely say that BC is not given out.  And Physicians who work at Catholic hospitals can order it, but not at the hospital.  They would have to write out a script for it.  We would not be allowed as nurses to pass out the script, or call it in to local pharmacy.  I worked on an OB unit there, and we were not allowed to discuss anything other than NFP.  The morning after pill would not be prescribed in the ED, even in the case of rape which is why most local police in our area take possible rape victims to the other hospital in our town. 

 

If a pregnant woman came in to the hospital and it was a life and death situation, then yes, the mother's life would be considered over the fetus's life.  So if it meant that the baby would be delivered before the age of viability they would do that, but they would not abort.  If at all possible they would try to stabilize the mom and transfer her to hospital that deals with high risk deliveries.  If not possible,  the baby would be delivered and if it made attempts to breath, we would do our best to support it's efforts. 

 

 

 

[Bad Wolf]

33 years ago I had my tubes tied in a Catholic hospital after a c section. I asked my obgyn if it would be allowed, and he said there were ways to get it done.

We'd decided that 2 was the right number for us.

[Front Hugging Fiend]

2 hours ago, calimojo said:

Having worked in 2 different Catholic Hospitals, I can definitely say that BC is not given out.  And Physicians who work at Catholic hospitals can order it, but not at the hospital.  They would have to write out a script for it.  We would not be allowed as nurses to pass out the script, or call it in to local pharmacy.  I worked on an OB unit there, and we were not allowed to discuss anything other than NFP.  The morning after pill would not be prescribed in the ED, even in the case of rape which is why most local police in our area take possible rape victims to the other hospital in our town. 

 

If a pregnant woman came in to the hospital and it was a life and death situation, then yes, the mother's life would be considered over the fetus's life.  So if it meant that the baby would be delivered before the age of viability they would do that, but they would not abort.  If at all possible they would try to stabilize the mom and transfer her to hospital that deals with high risk deliveries.  If not possible,  the baby would be delivered and if it made attempts to breath, we would do our best to support it's efforts. 

 

 

 

This is really interesting to me. May I ask what country you're from? I'm in Australia and I regularly attend a Catholic private hospital here - they may have a crucifix in every room but when I went in for ovarian cysts and what not, they offered BC and a whole range of options for me. They were very open. I believe they don't perform non-emergent abortions past 17-20 weeks or so (can't quite remember actual timeframe but it's around that ballpark) but they do for emergent situations where the mother's life is at risk - not necessarily forcing the mother to 'deliver'. 

The morning after pill is prescribed and given if need be. There aren't any restrictions on medication for that sort of thing based on the values of the Church - even if the hospital itself is still owned and overseen by the Church (or a subsidiary).

[RosyDaisy]

A mother breaking her daughter's hymen? That's sexual assault.

[InThePrayerCloset]

17 hours ago, paulypepper said:

I love that...I'm gonna use that in future conversations if that's okay

I ask questions i shouldn't after a few gin and tonics... its a dangerous predilection! 

[Fundie Bunny]

2 hours ago, RosyDaisy said:

A mother breaking her daughter's hymen? That's sexual assault.

In spain the gypsys do it. Normally is not the mother on law, but and old woman whose job is that, breaking young girls hymens. Only married women can be in the room when it is being performed. After that everyone cheer and sing, and the men break their shirts in order to show joy for the honor the bride has given to her family and her groom. It is scary and entertaining to see. Gypsy reality shows are our TLC

[InThePrayerCloset]

3 hours ago, Front Hugging Fiend said:

This is really interesting to me. May I ask what country you're from? I'm in Australia and I regularly attend a Catholic private hospital here - they may have a crucifix in every room but when I went in for ovarian cysts and what not, they offered BC and a whole range of options for me. They were very open. I believe they don't perform non-emergent abortions past 17-20 weeks or so (can't quite remember actual timeframe but it's around that ballpark) but they do for emergent situations where the mother's life is at risk - not necessarily forcing the mother to 'deliver'. 

The morning after pill is prescribed and given if need be. There aren't any restrictions on medication for that sort of thing based on the values of the Church - even if the hospital itself is still owned and overseen by the Church (or a subsidiary).

Is this hospital in a location in Harry Potter? Think "ward 9 and 3/4"? sorry not wanting to out a fellow aussie...

[RosyDaisy]

I have seen some pretty fucked up things on the TLC gypsy shows (which I think are fake), but an elder woman breaking the brides hymen? That takes the cake. I still think it's sexual assault

[Cassielfsw]

18 hours ago, snarkykitty said:

Please provide evidence of your claims, because this is the information I found:

12.6% of hospitals in the US are Catholic run/owned, serving 15% of hospitalized patients.

According to the ALCU, the doctors in any hospital - Catholic or not - make decisions. The hospital CANNOT refuse to perform life-saving abortions, provide emergency services, or abortion care.
 

https://www.aclu.org/cases/tamesha-means-v-united-states-conference-catholic-bishops

Tamesha Means' water broke at 18 weeks and the Catholic hospital she went to refused to help her or even tell her what was happening. She was in terrible pain and showing signs of infection when she finally went into labor. 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2636458/

According to this study, physicians' hands are strictly tied at Catholic hospitals. Any decisions regarding miscarriage management or abortion for any reason, even in cases of medical emergency, must be approved by the ethics committee, which consists of Catholic clergy. They are forbidden from even discussing any topics or procedures of which the church does not approve. 

[CoveredInBees]

21 hours ago, ven said:

the Mother in  law will break the hymen with a white cloth and display it for everyone to see whilst the bride is lying on a bed . This way she is certain the girl is worthy and a virgin . The son can do it later with his "certified " virgin ! 

Now look. I don't let the MIL in my house, so I'm not about to let her go there..........

 

[ven]

3 hours ago, CoveredInBees said:

Now look. I don't let the MIL in my house, so I'm not about to let her go there..........

 

O.o u have a severe!  Case of white cloth anxiety disorder . Plzz join the WCAD- anonymous asap

[vienna]

In Austria you do get bc in a catholic hospital. And breast implants or whatever. Abortions not on a regular basis but when medicaly indicated for sure. I would say that catholic institutions as hospitals or retirement homes and such are very good here and they do not try to mission you. My daughter has been to a catholic school. Together with protestants, muslims, atheists (the majority) and there has even been a lesbian couple with a kid in another class. The People in the catholic churche here are often very tolerant and have believes different form the pope or official doctrine. In Poland for example, it´s dfferent. And even within Austria, it differes if you are in a city or a small village up in the mountains.

[MoonFace]

13 hours ago, RosyDaisy said:

A mother breaking her daughter's hymen? That's sexual assault.

It's downright creepy to have a woman (not your partner) fingering you in any case.    

(Shudder)

[Mothership]

10 hours ago, RosyDaisy said:

I have seen some pretty fucked up things on the TLC gypsy shows (which I think are fake), but an elder woman breaking the brides hymen? That takes the cake. I still think it's sexual assault

Agreed.  This is absolutely sexual assault and feels a step away from female genital mutilation

[justoneoftwo]

3 minutes ago, Mothership said:

Agreed.  This is absolutely sexual assault and feels a step away from female genital mutilation

This seems a huge exaggeration.  Its sexual assault sure, but it doesn't cause a permanent inability to enjoy sex and isn't surgery.  

[Mothership]

Surgically speaking, you're correct.  But, it is a violation and it's a violation that's being perpetrated for control.  That is the same justification used for FGM.

I would also caution that  "no permanent inability to enjoy sex" is a statement I would never want to use when speaking about sexual assault of any kind.