Jill and Jessa Duggar Special Sunday Dec 13 - Merge

[mebeforee]

I think it was a review episode of Jessa's courtship. It's hard for me to know which episode it was because I've watched so sporadically the past three or four seasons, but it was before her wedding. They were asking the family about courtship rules and there was a talking head with Josh and Anna.

[NotAnIncubator]

@Special friend

I think it was the Jill/der jessa/Ben double date episode with the handcuff challenge. 

[Cerealgirl]

20 hours ago, mebeforee said: Josh and Anna acknowledged on the show that they didn't stick to side hugs when they were discussing either Jessa or Jill's engagement.

Not that it's not weird that Josh and Anna side hugged when they first got engaged, but that was also literally the first time they'd ever touched.

Really? I don't remember that happening. What episode was that in?

I do remember that Jill and Derrick didn't stick to it. But not Josh and Anna.

I can't wait to see when one of the kids decides that they want to front hug or hold hands before getting engaged. "Oh Aunt Pitty Pat, get me mah smellin salts!"

[mebeforee]

I wonder how they would be able to do that. I wish they could decide to hug or something, but I can't imagine it happening that way. They always claim that the kids choose their own courtship rules but that's such a load of horseshit... I feel like the kid would actually have to sneak away and hold hands in secret. Then the parents would totally go ballistic if they found out, like it's the next greatest shame of the family.

[Kittikatz]

I remember Smuggar and Anna saying that they didn't see the difference between side hugs and front hugs. It was something that the girls decided. Not sure the episode, but seem to recall it was one of the interviews on the couch in the Duggars house after one of the girls weddings. 

The one thing about the special that was weird to me was how little mention there was about forgiveness and also how much anger/negative emotion was shown - especially given how their culture is all about keeping sweet and maintaining a joyful countenance at all times. I was raised in an environment where I was not allowed to express any negative emotion, and I still have difficulties with feeling angry or sad, much less expressing those emotions to others. Even today, I can think that I'm upset over event y, when really it's event x, which somehow relates to or reminds me of event y, but happened years before. I used to think I was just over reacting to event y, but my therapist said that because I was unable to process event x at the time it happened, that it was natural for the processing of event y to trigger my subconscious to also start processing event x. Tends to make for some epic meltdowns, which I try not to inflict on others, most of whom wouldn't understand that in my brain y = x...  Given how broken Jinger seemed and how visibibly upset the other sibs (minus Jessa) were, I wonder if Josh's infidelity and the fallout has triggered them back to processing the molestation. Jessa just seems to be hell bent on repressing everything except a low grade, constant stream of unfocused anger. If the others didn't have even that outlet available to them, their seeming over reaction to Josh cheating on Anna could be years of repressed emotion that they are finally being given permission to show plus stress over their family's loss of fame and income... It really strikes me as suspicious that JB would suddenly allow this mass expression of emotion after a lifetime of "shut up and smile", so I'm wondering if some of the emotion and "throw Josh under the bus" sentiment seen on the show is the Duggars way of setting the stage to justify cutting Josh loose if he is not towing the line in rehab, or if worse comes out, or if he slips the leash before the Joshly's Miraculous Redemption World Tour they are no doubt hoping for...

[Mrsaztx]

33 minutes ago, mebeforee said:

I wonder how they would be able to do that. I wish they could decide to hug or something, but I can't imagine it happening that way. They always claim that the kids choose their own courtship rules but that's such a load of horseshit... I feel like the kid would actually have to sneak away and hold hands in secret. Then the parents would totally go ballistic if they found out, like it's the next greatest shame of the family.

Yeah, I wonder how that would go when they "decide their own courtship rules" include unchaperoned dates for up to 3 hours, with any kissing and over-the-clothes action they may choose to partake in? Most parents of adult children would call that "tame" but I suspect such may not be the case with mr. And mrs. "We let our ADULT children *totally* make autonomous decisions".

i can't understand how you expect an adult to be ready for marriage and a child army when you don't even trust them to be alone for 20 minutes with their future spouse

[Bad Wolf]

I think it was before Benessa were courting that they put a kid in between them to hold hands to pray in a circle. Everyone knows that holding hands while praying leads to unfulfilled desires.

We hold hands in church for the Loŗd's prayer. Nike

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

On 12/14/2015 at 7:58 AM, ThunderRolls said:

After sleeping on this, I can't shake the feeling of actually pitying Josh. I know, I know...

Josh is the tangible evidence that following Gothard and his brand of Christianity just doesn't work. Instead of looking at what contributed to Josh's behaviors, I feel like he's been labeled a "bad seed." At least that's how it came across in this special (perhaps future specials will be different). 

Unlike others who felt John David came across well, I thought he used the opportunity to be a little sanctimonious. He had to tell Josh that he doesn't look up to him anymore? Was that really necessary? I got the impression he's secretly wanted to that for years since Josh molested his sisters, and now he finally had a chance to do it. I felt like JD was saying, in a roundabout way, "See guys, I'm the big brother y'all should've been looking up to all along!"

 

Edit: I realize not everyone is going to agree with my feelings, but I guess I'm curious as to what I expressed that is so out of line? I'm certainly not condoning Josh's actions by any means, and I never said that. I just feel like the family is projecting all that's gone wrong onto Josh after he had been unfairly put up on a pedestal while he was still a child - of course he's going to fail when he's been imposed with unreasonable expectations from day one. 

 

They higher the pedestal the harder the fall.  I do think there is a lot of I'm better than you going on in that family. With that big of a family and so little else to do but be "godly" I can't imagine most of them not being like that.  

I do wonder though if JD, and Joe and Si to a lesser extent, didn't hold a lot of resentment toward Josh, the oldest son, the golden boy whom had much favor bestowed on him while the others got to take care of other kids and the work. A bit like Jill, daddies favorite.  

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

19 hours ago, mebeforee said:

 

I thought Joy seemed pretty genuine. She didn't say all that much that I remember but there wasn't a single shot of her where she didn't have tear trails on her cheeks. I think she probably is one of the more confused by the whole situation and potential family pressure put on her to keep sweet for the benefit of younger children who don't really understand what's going on.

ETA: clarifying that I only mean in her talking heads. I'm sure there are candid shots of her somewhere where she looks fine, I'm sure she's not constantly crying. I do think she finds it genuinely upsetting to talk about the family/Josh's situation, though.

ITA, Joy looked genuinely upset. The red rimed eyes and tear stained face is hard to fake, she isn't an actress, maybe she is but I doubt it. I also agree that she is probably very confused by what is going on.  What does she remember of the molestations? I'm sure in her very young, VERY naive mind, I'm sure Josh cheating on Anna was something that was not even remotely possible. 

As for everyone being so upset about the affairs and not the molestation, they've lived with the molestation for over 10 years, it has been dealt with (badly but still in the past)teh cheating is a new thing.  I'm also sure that Boob and DQ have used this to point out the evils of the big bad ungodly world. 

[SassyPants]

Jessa and Ben frontal hugged in the engagement episode. It was never addressed.

[nst]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

Jessa and Ben frontal hugged in the engagement episode. It was never addressed.

Brilliant deduction SP

to be a fly on the wall after that happened.  Maybe same reaction as the last supper dinner handhold

 

[Bad Wolf]

32 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Jessa and Ben frontal hugged in the engagement episode. It was never addressed.

They were in a church. JB and M weren't there. Jinger was chaperone.

[Cerealgirl]

I wonder how they would be able to do that. I wish they could decide to hug or something, but I can't imagine it happening that way. They always claim that the kids choose their own courtship rules but that's such a load of horseshit... I feel like the kid would actually have to sneak away and hold hands in secret. Then the parents would totally go ballistic if they found out, like it's the next greatest shame of the family.

I'm sure JB and M wouldn't care as much but with all of the little kids excited to catch someone breaking the contact rule they would have to make a big deal to save face.

32 minutes ago, SassyPants said: Jessa and Ben frontal hugged in the engagement episode. It was never addressed.

They were in a church. JB and M weren't there. Jinger was chaperone.

I thought Jinger said something about letting it go because it was a special moment. Or maybe that was my take on it.

[Cerealgirl]

 

I do wonder though if JD, and Joe and Si to a lesser extent, didn't hold a lot of resentment toward Josh, the oldest son, the golden boy whom had much favor bestowed on him while the others got to take care of other kids and the work. A bit like Jill, daddies favorite.  

Jill has had 2 McMansions now. I'd be peeved if I were Jessa. Or even and of kidults still at home having to share a bedroom with toddlers.

[nst]

23 minutes ago, Cerealgirl said:

Jill has had 2 McMansions now. I'd be peeved if I were Jessa. Or even and of kidults still at home having to share a bedroom with toddlers.

I doubt jessa cares. Since she is the type to love her space.  P,us they can take pics at the McMansions.

but if she plans to adopt soon, then she needs a bigger house. Then Ben has to man up.

 

[justmy2cents]

48 minutes ago, Cerealgirl said:

I thought Jinger said something about letting it go because it was a special moment. Or maybe that was my take on it.

I wouldn't be surprised if they had run that by JB and Michelle before and had agreed that they could have one special hug upon engagement.

As for Josh and Anna front hugging during engagement, I don't remember that at all.  If they had said something like that wouldn't we have discussed it on here like we did Zach and Whitney's premarital kiss?

[Cerealgirl]

As for Josh and Anna front hugging during engagement, I don't remember that at all.  If they had said something like that wouldn't we have discussed it on here like we did Zach and Whitney's premarital kiss?

I don't remember it happening either. Maybe it never made it on camera.

[mebeforee]

I don't really remember actually seeing it, but I don't know if it would have seemed noteworthy to me (or the cameramen) at the time, since they hadn't established many courtship rules yet and it was a big deal at the time just that they were saving their first kiss - I remember them getting a lot of questions about that, but never about having waited to hold hands or anything about the nature of their hugs. I do definitely remember Josh commenting on the side hugs in reference to his sisters, though.

Creepy that they're so concerned about that kind of stuff but they see nothing unusual or over the top about Anna having a pillow with her and Josh's gigantic engagement photo faces printed on it. If it's not 'giving away a piece of your heart' to press your face up against a giant printed rendition of your boyfriend every night while you sleep, I don't know what is.

[justmy2cents]

What I do remember is Josh saying something like 'we didn't call it a side hug, it was just a hug'. Maybe you interpreted that as him saying that they hugged normally? I interpreted that as them side hugging but calling it regular hugging because that's the kind of hug that was normal to them.

[mebeforee]

I didn't get that impression at all, I remembered them as being pretty clear that it wasn't a factor in their courtship. I got the impression that they thought it was kind of silly. But if we're just comparing memories of the clip we can't say one way or another unless someone can find it and we can watch it again, but I'm not sure how to track it down.

[HarryPotterFan]

6 hours ago, Special friend said:

Really? I don't remember that happening. What episode was that in?

I do remember that Jill and Derrick didn't stick to it. But not Josh and Anna.

But do you remember Michelle's reaction to Jill getting excited and full-frontal hugging Derrick when he returned from Nepal? She was so embarrassed and tried to explain it away and reassure the audience it wouldn't happen again. You'd think they had premarital sex at a purity ball or something.

[mebeforee]

I did like how totally unapologetic Derick was about the hug, though. Those early moments are why I still have hope for him. He was just like 'yep, I liked it. It was good.'

[kjmackin]

Chiming in on the adults and how to address them. 

Upbringing South Easteren Michigan. Age 26 & married for 2.5 years.

 

Truthfully I just avoid trying to address my in-laws. I never felt comfortable calling them by their first names or Ma & Papi. With other adults mainly my friends parents for the most part it was always Ms or Mr. I have never called some one else Mom or Dad. It never mad since to address someone else with this term.  I can think of mainly 3-5 adults that I felt comfortable calling them by their first names but I think that had to deal with the setting and general approach to them. 

[mebeforee]

But with the hugging and all, those are things that would be totally unnoticed if the family didn't call attention to them. I don't really get it. Jessa once said she'd kissed a boy, that she had a bunch of brothers and had kissed them all. I know I've seen some of them hug their children/younger siblings without concern, too. I think whoever posted before about them making a big deal because the cameras caught it is true. I'm sure things are less dramatic in their usual life, including hugs and kisses between family members, but with the camera crew around they all have their game faces on and probably have a totally different mode of behavior.

[IreneIssh]

12 minutes ago, mebeforee said:

I didn't get that impression at all, I remembered them as being pretty clear that it wasn't a factor in their courtship. I got the impression that they thought it was kind of silly. But if we're just comparing memories of the clip we can't say one way or another unless someone can find it and we can watch it again, but I'm not sure how to track it down.

I just happened to watch this episode! It's in the Duggar Guide to Love 

One of the last episodes of the show, I think