Jill and Jessa Duggar Special Sunday Dec 13 - Merge

[mebeforee]

Oh man, an hour and a half, lmao. I'll have to wait until tomorrow sometime to dig into that, though now I'm curious to see it again.

[IreneIssh]

Yeah, sorry. I would get the exact time for you but I'm on mobile and my tablet is being a jerk. 

[mebeforee]

I'm on my phone anyway so it's not possible for me to watch the whole thing, my wifi is terrible and I typically can't watch a video longer than about 2 minutes, so I'll have to watch it on my laptop.

But thanks! I'm not just interested in that particular section, I wonder what the family in general was saying about relationships before all this news came out.

Ps I kind of forgot how close Jessa and Ben used to sit next to each other before they were allowed to touch. I feel weirdly sorry for them and their desperation.

[Redandbluenights]

On 12/17/2015 at 6:36 AM, InThePrayerCloset said:

I in no way want to diminish you're experience with EDS. I'm genuinely curious - why do i get lots of zebra's when i google image Ehlers Danlos Syndrome?? My results are 80% zebras... and i'm confused... Is it an animal emblem of the disease? Like Neurontin uses porcupines for chronic pain? Or is my google just fucking with me?

Totally agree with your comments regardless of what specific genetic issue (if any) is going on with d.

Yes, the zebra is the symbol for EDS, just as much as the red ribbon symbolizes AIDS. 

 

It goes back to a quote used in doctoral education "when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras"- a quote which means the simpaliest explanation for symptoms is often the right one. As in, if you have a fever, it's probably the flu, not dengue fever...(unless you've been in Hawaii recently...lol). Our symptoms often start off common; back pain, sore joints, facial features, headaches... But often go YEARS unexplained, and untreatable. Hence... We are the Zebras of the medical community. Our symptoms might be normal when individualized, but when you look at the big picture, all the sudden you see that EDS makes a great deal of sense. Even if this is what Derick has, it would literally likely take YEARS or a sudden death to uncover it- often we aren't diagnosed until after a traumatic event or pregnancy, which often triggers it to severely get worse, like in my case.  

And, I appreciate your interest, but don't worry, you can't minimize bymy experience... I'm fully disabled by this awful disorder since 30. There's nothing you could say that would make it worse!

[Redandbluenights]

On 12/17/2015 at 6:46 AM, nastyhobbitses said:

As I've said before, I think that if Israel was disabled, they'd milk that shit for all it's worth. They'd have a big Yay We Didn't Abort You self-congratulation speaking tour. Josie got to be the "We're so great for not leaving our not-completely-perfect baby on a hillside to die" mascot, and she, as far as we know, is pretty much fine apart from possible epilepsy. If Israel had a major genetic issue or disability, they'd jump on that as part of their redemption/We're So Godly/please give us money tour.

Unfortunately, the issue is, that even if Derick has vascular EDS (or is cousin, Marfan's Syndrome)- he likely would not know. He would have no clue he possibly passed it onto Izzy (a 50% rate), as well as any future children. 

Many of us weren't diagnosed until later in life- I had *symptoms my entire life but want disabled until 29- and want diagnosed until 31. 

Derick's recent dental work, and his photo with webbed fingers, plus his dad's sudden death- add to that his son and he have pale skin, Derick's got the long face, narrow high pallet, small ear lobes, thin lips, prominent eyes, larger forehead, etc etc etc... But unless he's experiencing something like an aeortic tear, or chiari (tethered cord Syndrome) which can cause migranes and even internal decapitation- or like me, suddenly worsening & severe joint pain that can't be explained by injury... Or unless he's experienced trouble with anesthesia or pain medication not working like it does on most people (it takes enough anesthesia to knock down an elephant to keep me down, for example.)  

I'm not trying to diagnose Derick, I'm just trying to explain that if this WAS an issue for him,  he wouldn't necessarily know that he, and any future offspring, could have these major health issues. 

Many babies show ZERO signs of EDS except that being large babies who are often stronger that usual, is a thing. I, for example, was walking at five months. My son never had that newborn "floppy/weak head and neck thing"- at hours old, he could lean away from your shoulder and look all around the room, not to mention do a full push-up and look around, plus he could crawl the length of our bed (from our feet to our pillows) at thirteen weeks, and at just days old, he could hold his bottle by himself. Many EDS babies are strong large and independent, often being way ahead cognitively- again, both myself and my son were reading before age four, and my son is doing fourth grade math at age four. 

 

While many of those things SOUND great...some EDS kids break bones with no symptoms, only discovered later when something does hurt, and parents have been accused of abuse BC we bruise, dislocate and break easily. There have been AWFUL cases of kids taken by CPS BC of accused abuse because EDS wasn't diagnosed due to the many symptoms being " explained away" by more common, or more likely explanations- like child abuse, vs a genetic condition in which the child dislocates hips, ankles and shoulders by barely being touched...

You can see why so often EDS is missed, especially in kids who don't have it severely; it can be said they are just "ahead" physically.. Or that kids are just "flexible" or "double jointed"- after all, if your body can do wierd things, but it doesn't hurt- why would you suspect a genetic serious illness?

My whole life, I've been able to put my hands FLAT on the floor when bending at the waist (without bending my knees) - during the "sit &reach" in gym class, i could touch the WALL beyond the box. And, i can dislocate most of my joints without effort or pain; holding my thumb to my wrist, linking my elbows behind my back, and MOST impressive- the ability to turn my feet completely backwards (rotating inward) nearly 300°- and even to walk with one foot forward and one completely backwards.... but I wasn't diagnosed for three decades, and as a kid, my parents were told I'd outgrow it. 

EDS is a connective-tissue disorder.

Problem being; Connective tissue is EVERYWHERE in your body; It affects your gums & tooth enamel, heart & organs, your bladder (Interstitial Cystitis can feel like a never ending UTI W/pain, burning, frequency, and feeling like you still have to pee after you HAVE), chiari (tethered cord Syndrome) leads to head neck and jaw pain (migraines, tmj, clenching/grinding, muscle spasms) - POTS (postural orthostatic tacycardia syndrome) makes your alreafy low BP drop suddenly from stress, anger, heat and humidity, fibromyalgia-like numbness, burning and nerve pain, plus Reynaud's (ice cold blue toes and fingers), anxiety and ADHD symptoms, Sprains, strains, dislocations and persistent muscle spasms, joint pain, tears of tendons- all things that result from loose, flexible joints

... But the most troublesome concern for Derick & EDS is hoe easily its missed, how sudden death is a VERY REAL and likely outcome if diagnosis is missed. And, that if you've already passed it on, there's no cure, and its progressive. While some people (most often males) can have minor symptoms and live with never getting diagnosed- many times in female carriers, a car accident, puberty, pregnancy, illness, etc can set off life-altering symtoms in a very sudden down-hill cascade. I was a police officer and a healthy, thin, flexible young adult... And within a year I needed a wheelchair, lost nearly all my back teeth, had crippling 10/10 back pain and spasms, could barely lift anything, and I've broken my wrist and knee plus dislocated, on average,  10-20 joints per day, often putting them back in myself.

My four year old has started with dislocating as well..but most of his symptoms are harmless and not painful... So far. 

My worry is that a genetic ailment in Duggar-ville would be ignored because a daughter with 10/10 pain, wouldn't be able to "keep sweet" and knowingly reproducing with a lethal genetic disorder is pretty frowned upon (again, IF he has type 4, vascular, which he has all the facial symptoms of).

 I can't see someone as brainwashed into the cult as Jill, deciding not to have more babies over a little thing like her kids 50/50 inheriting a painful timebomb disorder that would someday kill them.... I would see Derick just ignoring the suggestion of EDS/Marfan's, just as easily as many doctors miss or ignore it.

Sadly, these people seem to value modern medicine only when it saves premature babies like Josie... I don't see any of them being willing to stop having babies even if they KNEW it carried SERIOUS risks...the problem with EDS is how easy it is for DOCTORS to misdiagnose - a family who doesn't want to hear ANY reason they should stop pu.ping out babies, would likely just use selective hearing when it came to explaining thier medical issues. Anything to avoid being told "having more babies is probably a bad idea".

I don't have the terminal EDS, i have type 3 (hypermobility type)- but MANY of my fellow Zebras won't have kids, or won't have kids, or at least, won't have *MORE* kids, knowing what they are potentially passing on. 

My son was the result of pregnancy despite my being on birth control (I could SO see the Duggars blaming THAT alone for my son's health issues), plus my pregnancy was  caused by a sexual assault (somehow I could ALSO see them blaming his health condition on my having been "immodest" and my having brought upon my own rape- I mean, hell, we know how they victim-blame women for everything (Poor, poor @Anna!!!!!) , plus I wasn't diagnosed until my son was almost two, so i didn't get any chance to avoid giving him my crappy genes. And my son won't be officially diagnosed until he's 6-8 BC kids are very flexible naturally.

Kristie (Evans Family Lego project on Facebook or http://www.instagram.com/Evansfamilylegoproject - zebradogblog.com for more about EDS)

[Redandbluenights]

On 12/17/2015 at 6:59 PM, Funwithfundies said:

Sorry to hear that, but glad to have some company!

Hey guys- I have EDS Type 3.. There are THREE of us here? That's got to be some wildly wierd statistical annomoly... Tying hate-watching TV and a (fairly) rare genetic illness. How strange!

[Eighth-of-eleven]

1 hour ago, Redandbluenights said:

Hey guys- I have EDS Type 3.. There are THREE of us here? That's got to be some wildly wierd statistical annomoly... Tying hate-watching TV and a (fairly) rare genetic illness. How strange!

I do not have eds, but my grandmother, two uncles,( grandmother and uncles  passed away in their 40's and early 50's )and a niece and nephew in my huge family have marfans. There are levels of symptoms in my some of my siblings as well, tall, slender, narrow palate,, long arms, extremely nearsighted, but no one will get tested. Except I did because recently I got involved in assisting a friend with Marfans to raise money after a series of devastating events related to her condition. And the marfans foundation people were so intent that I got tested too after learning of my family history, since not every one exibits such obvious symptoms and my family history is so strong. That is why I noticed Derrick as well.

[lascuba]

I could have sword that Anna said something to the effect that she and Josh only side-hugged that one time when they got engaged, because both sets of parents were a lot more strict then. Basically, side-hugging represents a relaxation of the rules. 

Someone please take one for the team and watch that video to find out for sure. I can't make myself do it. 

ETA: Because I'm a masochist I decided see if I could find it quickly by ff'ing until I saw Josh and Anna speaking and found it on the first try. Go to around the 49 minute mark. 

[xlurker]

I sleep with my eyes open!  Not partially either--fully open.  Nope, don't know of any disorders either--hope it stays that way

[missegeno]

On 12/15/2015 at 0:44 AM, Jennifer Hart said:

But with the hugging and all, those are things that would be totally unnoticed if the family didn't call attention to them. I don't really get it. Jessa once said she'd kissed a boy, that she had a bunch of brothers and had kissed them all. I know I've seen some of them hug their children/younger siblings without concern, too. I think whoever posted before about them making a big deal because the cameras caught it is true. I'm sure things are less dramatic in their usual life, including hugs and kisses between family members, but with the camera crew around they all have their game faces on and probably have a totally different mode of behavior.

The quote function is trying to get me to quote a completely unrelated post. No matter what I do, it keeps inserting it here, instead of the mebeforee post on that previous page that i want to reply to. I copied and pasted what I could, but it still says Jennifer Hart in the citation box.  Sorry for the confusion, I really am at a loss on this one.

I think mebeforee makes a good point of these "rules" being mostly for the camera. Mechelle and JBoob made a big deal about how little girls don't sit on boys laps following the first scandal, and we all saw the wisdom booklet about boys being defrauded by changing diapers. But then we also saw the pics of Josie sitting on Josh's lap, and we heard about Derrick learning to change a diaper as part of his Daddy Training. All these people care about is image.

[justmy2cents]

Here is the portion of Buzzard's recap pertaining to our discussion:  I'll try to watch that episode later to hear for myself again. I still believe that he meant that the side hug was a regular hug and they didn't call it a side hug but that's what they did.

 

youre doing it wrong - part 4

 

Sidehugs:

Viewer - never heard of them

Jill - a sidehug is giving a person a hug from the side

viewer - thats awkward

viewer - its something you do when your uncomfortable with a person

Bin - its a friendly hug, like a greeting

Littles demonstrate

Josh - when I heard about the whole sidehug thing. To me, a hug is a hug, we just hugged

Michelle - the intimacy standards they talked about, they were going to wait to have contact until they were married.

Viewer - holding hands, kissing... I think a person needs to knownot only emotional chemistry but other chemistry. I dont have a problem prior to marriage.

Boob - when derrick returned from nepal...

Michelle - when they rant to greet eachother they "met in the middle" Intentions were to do a sidehug.

Boob - it was an innocent act of love

Sunglass girl - if I couldnt have contact that would drive me crazy

Jill - guys are stimulated...

Viewer - physical contact is important

Hannie - no kissing, front hug, no doing things that arent good to do.

Bin - other couples "seal the deal" with a kiss. We were saving that for our wedding day. We did hold hands

Sunglass girl - I dont know if I'm attracted to you immediately, your sweaty palms may bother me. I dont want to get married and find out that you have weird hands!

Josh - we talked through the basics, we wanted to hold hands (hand sex!) We were saving our first kiss for our wedding day.

Derrick - we wanted to save our first kiss for our wedding day.

Viewer - saving your first kiss - I would have saved it, sure.

 

OK, just went to the video (thanks @lascuba) and now it sounds like they didn't hug at all.  Anna did say that both sets of parents were a lot stricter back then and that the girls getting to side hug was more liberal than Josh and Anna's relationship.  No hugging or side hugging for that matter.

[Bad Wolf]

It will be interesting to see if the couples are still happy about their courting rules a few years from now. If Josh and Anna had been able to have some time alone, maybe with a kiss thrown in, they would have realized they weren't compatible. Well, Josh might have realized and broken off the courtship. Anna would have been heart broken, but she would have been spared her current grief.

[Nonyabznoch]

A few things I noticed:

Jessa's bible was brand new and Bin didn't recognize her bookmark.  Makes me wonder just how much time they spend reading it.

When Jana is talking about the first molestation scandal she says that Michelle told them that a ploice report was going to be released, but they were surprised by the report....  Makes me wonder if there are other reports

And last, I can't get Ben out of my head as keanu in bill and teds excellent adventure

 

[Marissap]

19 minutes ago, justmy2cents said:

Here is the portion of Buzzard's recap pertaining to our discussion:  I'll try to watch that episode later to hear for myself again. I still believe that he meant that the side hug was a regular hug and they didn't call it a side hug but that's what they did.

 

youre doing it wrong - part 4

 

Sidehugs:

Viewer - never heard of them

Jill - a sidehug is giving a person a hug from the side

viewer - thats awkward

viewer - its something you do when your uncomfortable with a person

Bin - its a friendly hug, like a greeting

Littles demonstrate

Josh - when I heard about the whole sidehug thing. To me, a hug is a hug, we just hugged

 

 

But it think he meant that he thought side hugs were normal hugs. And given their situation, I can totally understand that. 

[Special friend]

11 hours ago, HarryPotterFan said:

But do you remember Michelle's reaction to Jill getting excited and full-frontal hugging Derrick when he returned from Nepal? She was so embarrassed and tried to explain it away and reassure the audience it wouldn't happen again. You'd think they had premarital sex at a purity ball or something.

Lol, yes! I do remember that very well. :-) I mean seriously. How immodest can you get??? (*sarcasm)

[Buzzard]

I am filled with dread... the second round of ridiculousness is coming shortly... 

[missegeno]

Upon consideration and a binge of the old J&A courting/engagement episodes, I think that they didn't explicitly restrict themselves to side hugs, but side hugs were just assumed as the norm among the family. But then when they were brought up, suddenly they became a rule because it was something to talk about that reinforced the brand.

When Josh and Anna first got engaged, they seem to have celebrated with a side hug (though the camera angle makes it slightly harder to distinguish). They both just went for it as though it were natural (and not the first-time).

And in the infamous gold course episode (in which JM and JB discuss side hugs extensively), Ben discusses the side hug standard as:

"I was thinking maybe like, you know, we give eachother side hugs like when we, uh greet eachother and stuff" and it proceeds to show a clip of them side hugging at the beginning of the date and a montage of other Duggar side-hugs.

I notice that they didn't stage the discussion to occur prior to the side hugs, and they do them with a variety of people with enough regularity to make a little montage in that segment. But a frontal hug is a bit more than what they usually see/do, and it therefore draws some attention. So, a hug is a hug, and the basic prototype, is a side hug. Josh doesn't make an explicit distinction between them and other hugs (yet is never seen frontal hugging Anna, from what I can find, until they are married, so it seems that there is probably some distinction, implicit or otherwise). Meanwhile, Ben puts an explicit line on them, giving a nice opportunity for the Duggars to explain their oh-so-modest rules to us again, this time from a new angle. The rules seems to just amount to bragging rights to them, rather than useful ways to live. So, while most parents may loosen up over time, these ones are happy to just keep piling on the rules (in image at least, they are way too tired to actually keep up with enforcement among the Howlers and LGs). 

TLDR: Side hugs were just am implicit social norm for the family, but Ben making an explicit distinction provided a nice talking point about Duggarly rules.

[lascuba]

The first time I remember anyone on the show using the term "side-hug" was Jim Bob's "y'all can side hug" after Ben and Jessa started courting. Is that right? I found it really funny because until then the only times I've ever heard the term was from people making fun of fundies. It makes sense that the Duggars never distinguished between different types of hugs, and I wonder if either they heard the phrase "Christian side hug" and didn't realize it was meant to mock people like them or if TLC made it a point to ask them about it because they wanted yet another Duggar "quirk" to focus on. 

[mebeforee]

Yeah, I think the focus on side hugs when the daughters started courting combined with Josh's comments (which I took to mean hugs weren't really policed when they were courting, though I do think it's likely that side hugs were already a norm between opposite gendered individuals regardless of labeling) really gave me the impression that it was important for the daughters' relationships in a way that wasn't even articulated with Josh. I don't know if they ever frontal hugged before marriage (though I doubt it would bother JB and Michelle if they had, just 'hey, he's thinking about socially appropriate boobs right now'.)

But Josh actually set his courtship rules on camera, speaking to Anna's parents. I think it's probably common in their culture for the boy to ask the girl's parents to determine their courtship limits, because they see women as inherently tempting and the father as the daughter's protector (/owner). Maybe they front hugged or not, it just seemed to me from the way they spoke that it wasn't something they thought about and I took that to mean that they had done front hugs. Now that seems less sure but it definitely wasn't talked about in the same way.

When Josh was courting so much focus was put on the kiss. Years later the first other child, a daughter, is courting and they have to find a new angle. At this point their creepy behavioral constraints have become old hat, and nobody cares that they don't kiss. So the show escalates the importance of the hug to make it seem somehow more tantalizing and forbidden within the family, and the Duggars feel compelled to disapprove of a spontaneous frontal hug between a courting couple who has been separated by thousands of miles for weeks and weeks. I think if Josh and Anna did spontaneously have a front hug moment because it felt natural and they just couldn't resist, the families in question would have both been delighted because both had a ton riding on that courtship. Jill and Derick unfortunately had to face a different set of circumstances that involved TLC and the Duggars wanting their brand to seem ever more quaint.

[JHeathen]

OMG the drinking game for this second special should be, "Drink when you hear the phrase 'walk through.' "  Have heard it at least 6 times in 12 minutes.

[Trynn]

Has buzzard done a recap yet?

[mebeforee]

Where in the country is buzzard located? In the Midwest the special has literally just ended, I'm wondering (for future reference) when it should be expected for buzzard's recap to come out.

Ps it does seem that buzzard's recaps come out almost in live time, I'm just curious because I typically have to wait a bit to watch because of the mocking my family directs to me because of my interest in the Duggars, lmao

[Coconut Flan]

There is a new thread for the second special.

 

[SilverBeach]

On 12/19/2015 at 8:14 PM, 19 cats and counting said:

I believe Josh and Anna sidehugged after she accepted his proposal, so I think they had the same courtship rules that the girls did.

Uh, no. Their hand sex was disgusting, none of the others did it.

[Mercer]

I do not believe for one second that Jill and Derrick are going to put themselves or the baby in any real danger. We are talking about massively sheltered people who barely engage in normal activities in their own home town. So far in Guatemala Jill seems to be putting in an effort to avoid leaving the house as much as possible.

I'm sure they think they're doing something terribly risky, but I would bet money their time in Guatemala or El Salvador will be spent primarily in secure enclaves of mainly ex-pats.