Raising Godly Tomatoes-Training Children

[youshouldknowx4]

Let me tell you about this bitch named Elizabeth. I had the awful experience of dealing with her on another board. When one of her children were sick, she happily posted she 'spanked" aka hit, her son because he did not stay on the towel and threw up on the floor. She was to busy posting about how great her parenting skills were to tend to her ill child. She claimed she had 10 kids, and they went out every single night to eat. Then suddenly she becomes this wonderful chef. She posted how she hit babies less than 6 months old so they would sit still as commanded. She would post these long posts about how if parents would start hitting their children as babies the world would be oh so much better. She claimed her 19 yr old son wanted to sleep in the same room as his younger brothers, not have his own room. When the issue of either sexual abuse was going on or, some sort of stunted maturity she went crazy.

She went to extremes defending a white police officer that was convicted of beating a young black man almost to death, including 'donating' her own money to his defense.

She lived somewhere near Detroit at the time. Her website had open forums until she figured out the posts were being screen shot and sent to the local authorities.

Evil does not begin to tell what she is.

She is an evil awful bitch.

[Joykins]

I think I know what board you mean...she used to post that she had "9 children so far..." but it turned out that half of them were stepchildren.

[fundifugee]

Honestly, these people cause me to question the existence of God more than any other thing. Why would God allow people like this to have children? I just -- I don't even know anymore. What is wrong with these parents?

Their god is a mean bastard.

[fundifugee]

Sounds like they are AWESOME dinner guests! 2 hours of child training? FUN!

I Buzzard's sarcasm.

[flojo]

She was one of the first fun die websites I came across. It was horrific. Like a train wreck. The worst is the sad advice she gives about retraining teens, by suddenly removing all of their freedoms at 15, and keeping them at home until they turn into perfect little ladies. Ugh.

Edited because I have keypad mashing fingers

[Buzzard]

I Buzzard's sarcasm.

I was being serious...

(No I wasnt)

[ems]

I had forgotten about this site until I found a link to it from Making Home's blog. Making Home is fundie lite so I was surprised to find that this was one of her recommended resources.

http://raisinggodlytomatoes.com/ch04.php

What is up with the word, training, among fundies? The only reason that I can think that they don't use the word, teach, is because they are trying to either dehumanize their own children so that they can emotionally handle hurting them or they are setting up artificial moments to 'train' them.

Most of us didn't need to purposely train our child but we did teach our children. There is a difference.

They are obsessed with authority, so of course they can't "teach." That would be too egalitarian, or something... And why are their kids "tomatoes" anyway?

[NurseNell]

And why are their kids "tomatoes" anyway?

I wonder that too. I've heard kids called rugrats but tomatoes? Never.

Nell

[libmomj]

I wonder that too. I've heard kids called rugrats but tomatoes? Never.

Nell

To fit in with her concept of "Tomato Staking" as a parenting tool.

So What is Tomato Staking Again?

Every gardener knows what I mean by "tomato staking". A tomato plant grows fast, big, and wild. If left untended, it soon sprawls out into an unwieldy heap. As the fruit grows, it weighs the plant down to the ground. Propping by this time is too late. Any attempt to retrain and redirect the growth of the branches will result in breakage and substantial loss of the fruit due to rot, disease, and pests.

snip

How much wiser to be your child�s tomato stake from early on, keeping him close to you beyond infancy, training him constantly to be as you want him to be -- a godly child and eventually a godly adult. If you do this, eventually, when he is grown, he will be strong in the ways you have trained him and will not easily be persuaded toward the viewpoint and ways others.

She advocates keeping children near you (within 3 ft at all times for toddlers) so that you can head off or promptly correct any infractions. Children gradually get more rein once they have proven themselves trustworthy. It's just another fundie training tool that teaches total dependence on an authority figure.

[Kitty]

To fit in with her concept of "Tomato Staking" as a parenting tool.

So What is Tomato Staking Again?

Every gardener knows what I mean by "tomato staking". A tomato plant grows fast, big, and wild. If left untended, it soon sprawls out into an unwieldy heap. As the fruit grows, it weighs the plant down to the ground. Propping by this time is too late. Any attempt to retrain and redirect the growth of the branches will result in breakage and substantial loss of the fruit due to rot, disease, and pests.

snip

How much wiser to be your child�s tomato stake from early on, keeping him close to you beyond infancy, training him constantly to be as you want him to be -- a godly child and eventually a godly adult. If you do this, eventually, when he is grown, he will be strong in the ways you have trained him and will not easily be persuaded toward the viewpoint and ways others.

She advocates keeping children near you (within 3 ft at all times for toddlers) so that you can head off or promptly correct any infractions. Children gradually get more rein once they have proven themselves trustworthy. It's just another fundie training tool that teaches total dependence on an authority figure.

To be honest I know a non-fundie parent who's a great mom of 2 awesome kids, she says not to let the kid get too far away until they're old enough to be able to watch themselves.

Then again this is a fundie we're talking about, so something that sounds fairly reasonable is of course creepy, disturbing, questionably legal, or some combination of the above.

[debrand]

I wonder that too. I've heard kids called rugrats but tomatoes? Never.

Nell

http://raisinggodlytomatoes.com/ch07.php

She invented something that she calls tomato staking. The child is kept in close proximity to their mother so that she can instantly correct them when necessary. The goal is to cure any undesirable behavior.

. Intense Tomato Staking: Keeping your child within three feet of you (because he can't be trusted four feet or further from you), enabling you to "train" him to behave well, watching and correcting every infraction, and noticing and praising good behavior. After-the-fact discipline does not work nearly as well as the immediate discipline made possible by serious Tomato Staking such as this.

2. Occasional Tomato Staking: Keeping your child near you (how close and for how long depends on age and situation) to correct a repeated or habitual infraction. Here�s an example of this type being put into effect: "Because you pushed your brother just now, and you know better, you must come inside and sit here quietly at the kitchen table while I cook dinner. You will not play outside anymore until I see a change in you and know I can trust you."

3. Loose Tomato Staking: This is for daily use with well-trained children. Younger children are always within eyesight and earshot, usually in the same room, but not necessarily right next to you. In this kind of staking, you do NOT send children to the bedroom to play where you can't see or hear them, relying on occasional checks to monitor behavior. When they are outside, you are with them, or able to see and hear them. You do not pack them off to the neighbors or elsewhere for an hour or two to play without your personal supervision. You do not sign them up for group activities that do not include your parental participation.

4. Mentoring and Lifestyle Tomato Staking: Elements of all the other modes are interjected briefly, when needed, into this type, and this type should always be used along with the others. Involving far more than training for behavior, and more than "discipline," this is a way of living that also involves mentoring, nurturing, loving, teaching, fellowshipping with, and abiding with your child. Here, you are not only keeping your child with you, but you are including your child in your day's activities. You are building an intimate relationship with your child, teaching him to be like you in mind, spirit, beliefs and actions.

[Kitty]

Okay, underlined bit is definitely NOT what I thought at first, and is totes def CREEPY. D:

[debrand]

To be honest I know a non-fundie parent who's a great mom of 2 awesome kids, she says not to let the kid get too far away until they're old enough to be able to watch themselves.

Then again this is a fundie we're talking about, so something that sounds fairly reasonable is of course creepy, disturbing, questionably legal, or some combination of the above.

That is the problem. Not everything the Pearls teach, for instance, is horrible. The emphasis on building a relationship with your child and including them in your activities is good advice. It's the whipping and breaking of the child's will that destroys their little good advice.

The same is true of tomato stalking. Keeping a dsobedient child close by for the day is not horrible advice. Of course, her goal is to ensure her children can't think for themselves. Her goal is to dominate and break the child's will.

[debrand]

More tomato stalking advice

Elizabeth: Although you may think you are Tomato Staking and being consistent, from what you are telling me, you are not. Let me explain. When you have her sitting at the counter with you, how is she able to turn the water on and start splashing without you seeing her? I can understand it happening once initially when you aren't expecting her to go for the faucet, but by the second time, you should have caught her before her hand ever reached the handle. That's what I mean when I tell people to watch carefully and catch and correct immediately.

Here's a picture of how this should look and what you should do. First, put her up on the chair near the faucet. Stand so that you can always see her while you are making dinner. Glance at her every few seconds like you would glance in your rear view mirror while driving. Give her some measuring cups or a toy to play with, and tell her clearly not to touch the faucet. Then "lie in wait". You are ready and waiting to teach her something.

You see her leaning toward the sink out of the corner of your eye. You turn your head slightly so you can see her better without her noticing that you are watching. She begins to reach for the faucet. Since she is used to getting away with things at least for a few minutes, she doesn�t even notice that you are creeping up behind her. You give her a quick, surprise swat on the bottom just as her little hand reaches the handle. Startled, she sits back down quickly and looks up at you. You look her sternly in the eye and tell her, "Don't touch that faucet again."

She goes back to her toy, and you return to your cooking. This time you are really watching her and getting ready for a repeat. Only cook if it doesn't get in the way of your parenting. Discipline yourself to have the mindset that training your child always comes first.

In a minute or so, she glances over to see if you are watching (you pretend you are not), and then she reaches for the faucet again. If close enough, ambush her with a swat immediately. If you are a few steps away, calmly walk over, pick her up, turn her over your knee, and give her several "I mean business" swats on the bottom. Then set her back firmly in her chair and repeat: "DO NOT touch that again. Do you understand me?" Then remain right there ready to enforce your order. Move away only when you sense by her countenance that she is ready to submit to your authority.

REPEAT AS FREQUENTLY AS NEEDED to convince her that you are always watching her and she must obey you. If she is resistant, stand her in a corner for a few minutes to think over her options, before allowing her to sit at the counter and try again. Sometimes, simply stop what you are doing and look her right in the eye before she tries something, as if to say, "Make my day." If she asks for a showdown, give it to her and win. Do this with everything you tell her to do all day, as needed, and you will see a change, usually in short order.

[Lainey]

What I find most disturbing about this sort of thing is that these people seem to have the attitude that their children are then enemy. I can't imagine thinking of a child as someone I have to outwit and master. It's weird.

[NurseNell]

To fit in with her concept of "Tomato Staking" as a parenting tool.

So What is Tomato Staking Again?

Every gardener knows what I mean by "tomato staking". A tomato plant grows fast, big, and wild. If left untended, it soon sprawls out into an unwieldy heap.

Boy, i do know this about tomatoes. I live in an apt building. A man on first floor planted ONE tomato plant outside his patio and it has grown to reach the 2nd story!! I've never in my life seen such a tomato plant. Of course my Dad always staked his so he didn't have this problem. :D Thankfully he didn't consider us kids his tomatoes.

Nell

[FundiesInMyFamily]

countenance

I hate this friggin word!! This is not a real word. I have never once encountered it in the real world until I started fundie watching. I still don't really know what its supposed to mean besides "sit still, smile, and breed".

[libmomj]

libmomj wrote:

To fit in with her concept of "Tomato Staking" as a parenting tool.

So What is Tomato Staking Again?

Every gardener knows what I mean by "tomato staking". A tomato plant grows fast, big, and wild. If left untended, it soon sprawls out into an unwieldy heap.

Boy, i do know this about tomatoes. I live in an apt building. A man on first floor planted ONE tomato plant outside his patio and it has grown to reach the 2nd story!! I've never in my life seen such a tomato plant. Of course my Dad always staked his so he didn't have this problem. :D Thankfully he didn't consider us kids his tomatoes.

Nell

That's what bothers me about it -- aside from all of the saddening anecdotes and advice she gives -- the idea that unless you control your child's every thought and action into adulthood, said child will end up on a street corner, or worse, become a free thinking individual. Gasp!

[thoughtful]

(slightly--ok, totallly OT) Thoughtful, I've been looking at your avatar for as long as I've browsed FJ and always thought it looked like Alan Rickman, so I had to google 'by grabthar's hammer' and landed on the Galaxy Quest page.So that's what it is.)

That's our boy! I thought a slightly different view of him might be fun. And even in that film, with that goofy thing on his head and acting like a human version of Eeyore through much of the film, I find him adorable.

[Witsec1]

Yes, I've been appreciating your avatar for a while, thoughtful. Loved that movie.

[TheSassyOne]

Wow, when I first read this, I grabbed my glasses, because I thought I misread how long that poor baby was spanked! I can't imagine "parents" willingly treating a child in that way, much less at the direction of their friends, at the friends house! Oh, but the friends are excellent parents, I guess their children were hiding somewhere glad it wasn't them that was getting beat.

It occurred to me tonight, would what the Pearls and others like them teach, basically be considered a type of negative reinforcement? Forgive me if it's come up before on your previous board, but I was wondering about it while reading these posts. Everything they do is centered around fear and punishment. These children are "trained" to do what Mom and Dad want, not because it's the correct/right thing to do, but because if they don't, they will get a swat, or hair tugged or hit with a piece of pipe line. The process is repeated over and over and over, until the child finally submits to the parent's will. Sadly, it will begin all over again with the next behavior incident.

[Guest Anonymous]

Fer chrizzakes, the kid was playing with water, not building a freekin bomb.

[flojo]

It's too long to quote, but I just read yet another thing on her horrid site that infuriated me. It was about discipling a child who dares fidget during homeschooling, by having a paddle on ether desk to swat the child every time they fidget. Examples given were tapping a pencil on a desk, fiddling with a pencil sharpener and tapping a leg against a desk. This is education 101 people, some kids (and adults) need movement in order to learn. Heck - I have encouraged certain students to bring in small objects to fiddle with! Punishing a child for how they learn?

Aaaargh - compromising a child's education to make them obedient. Aaargh!

[luckylassie]

Seems like discipline knows know sense whatsoever in fundy houses.